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is immersion important for you?

is immersion important for you?

  • yes, a necessary part of my experience

    Votes: 58 50.9%
  • I can have a good experience without a focus on it

    Votes: 22 19.3%
  • I can have a good experience without it having a significant presence

    Votes: 12 10.5%
  • I can have a good experience without it

    Votes: 9 7.9%
  • no, I don't like immersion taking priority over other elements of a game

    Votes: 13 11.4%

  • Total voters
    114

Momock

Augur
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
645
I really love immersion but I can also enjoy highly abstract dungeon crawlers with 99% combat.
I don't think there is an opposition or contradiction between immersion and being an abstract dungeon crwler with 99% combat. The music and the mechanics alone can create enouth context and atmosphere to immerse yourself in. The immersion can be broken only because some mechanics don't make sense, or if something too odd sticks out. The moment you think "This shouldn't be this way..." is when immersion is broken.

But maybe I'm confusing immersion with suspension of disbelief, I don't know.
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,055
Immersion is, like, number 1 for me. If I can feel the immersion I can more or less forgive everything else. If I can't, I simply can't get into it.
 

Pompey

Novice
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
47
Location
New English Republic
I started to hate it when people used "but mu immersion!!" as the only argument for making RPGs 1st person, where you never see your own character in game (-> Cyberpunk 2077).

Fuck you and your immersion.


There only is one reason why CP 2077 is FP... it''s because we got the multiplayer game, with bots and a halfarsed, rushjob of a keannu vehicle thrown over it..... it's all to make mp seem like the sp to satisfy the fortnight/borderlands meatheads so they don't get confused.

It's the same reason they cut wall-walking.. it broke multiplayer so the single player gamers don't get it. They have a history of screwing over their more loyal audience for the sake of asshole... I mean SERIOUSLY "(para) our loyal fans get a shorter story because the people who don't really care about our games never finished W3"

..WHAT KIND OF FUCKING COMMENT IS THAT TO MAKE?

Wait, there is a multiplayer mode in Cyberpunk 2077? Wasn't it marketed as a Singleplayer™ Action RPG™?
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,055
What defines your immersion then?

I guess the best definition I can come up with is being able to imagine my characters place in the world, being able to visualize the world itself, what they are experiencing, etc. This can come from good looking natural environments, good voice acting or writing, a decent narrative, usually a combination of one or more.
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
76
What defines your immersion then?

I guess the best definition I can come up with is being able to imagine my characters place in the world, being able to visualize the world itself, what they are experiencing, etc. This can come from good looking natural environments, good voice acting or writing, a decent narrative, usually a combination of one or more.

Yeah, I agree.. it's visualisation and personal connection and perception... Explaining my earlier comment in context, I simply can't visualise my character in the world if I'm looking through the 'box' of an FP.. that's why Third person does it for me, because it assists in my visualisation and perception of the character and my surroundings... if I'm wearing, what amounts to a set of blinkers.. I'm too busy concentrating on the blinkers to 'lose' myself in the game.
 

TheHeroOfTime

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
2,887
Location
S-pain
f47.png
 

Max Damage

Savant
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Messages
661
Nothing speaks immersion better than a game where dragons are so pathetic that peasants rush to punch them in the face :lol:
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
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7,496
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London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
What the fuck is immersion? I thought it was enjoying a game so thoroughly that you lose yourself in the experience of playing it, but apparently it's something designers can add like chives to make the game better.

There's two things under consideration here:-

1) What you're talking about, being absorbed and engaged by the gameplay. Call it "gameplay immersion." (GPI)

2) The sense of "immersion" that refers to feeling like you're in and part of the virtual world as depicted/as simulated. Call it "let's pretend immersion." (LPI)

Now obviously there's some crossover. For example many of the RPGs treasured on the Codex have a lot of simulationist intent. So when you're thinking about adding +2 to Dexterity, it's not necessarily just a gameplay thing you do to beat the game or win, you also have a vague image in your mind of the character being a bit more nimble, and that perhaps even being part of their personality (like maybe you picture them fidgeting a bit in conversations).

Few people are without some feeling for both aspects, but different people weight the two aspects differently, and the same person can weight the aspects differently at different times and with different games.

However, the trick is that LPI is easier to achieve via the shortcut of good art design and graphic realism. You can easily feel like you're "being there" in a game with great graphics that has fairly shitty systems. (Cyberpunk 2077 is a recent case in point - you can cruise through the rain-soaked streets of Night City on your Kusanagi listening to Miles Davis and feel like you're really there and it's ultra cool, and that's a high level of LPI. But if the gameplay is too easy, the C&C vestigial, etc., then you don't get a high level of GPI.) And that shortcut doesn't require too much pondering about the game, it just requires hiring a shit-ton of artists and 3-d modelers (then often firing them once the game is done! :) ).

I think some of the gripe about immersion here is related to the fact that as the audience for games widened and the possible catchment area of people you could extract money from by making videogames broadened, AAA developers stopped doing highly abstracted games with deep systems, and started chasing the lowest common denominator of games where the visual representation element (the art design and graphics) is high and can provide a lot of LPI, but the kind of intricate, thoughtful gameplay and simulation you can get with a more abstracted system that provides good GPI was left to more specialized indie developers.

But there are a couple of points here: the very fact LPI immersion via graphic realism is the lowest common denominator means that most of us here will enjoy it to some extent too, just not as much as the blend of GPI and LPI you can get through a mixture of good art design+graphic representation plus an intricate, abstracted system. So there's some bad faith going on here when some people gripe about some games sometimes - they're not being fully honest with themselves or with the audience :)

Another point is that this means it's not games that have gotten worse, but rather the audience for games has gotten "worse." The worsening of games from the point of view of those of us who prefer the deeper blend of the two elements isn't an artifact of game developers getting worse, but of game developers getting better at servicing the lowest common denominator.
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
76
The worsening of games from the point of view of those of us who prefer the deeper blend of the two elements isn't an artifact of game developers getting worse, but of game developers getting better at servicing the lowest common denominator.

Isn't that the 'actual' definition of getting worse?..... "becoming more able at aiming low"
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
I have high hopes for this thread. Some people have abstract thinking, most don't, and I expect the 2 sides to talk it out here without being able to communicate.

the very fact LPI immersion via graphic realism is the lowest common denominator means that most of us here will enjoy it to some extent too, just not as much as the blend of GPI and LPI you can get through a mixture of good art design+graphic representation plus an intricate, abstracted system. So there's some bad faith going on here when some people gripe about some games sometimes - they're not being fully honest with themselves or with the audience

Or some people have standards, and that is too low a standard.
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
76
the very fact LPI immersion via graphic realism is the lowest common denominator means that most of us here will enjoy it to some extent too, just not as much as the blend of GPI and LPI you can get through a mixture of good art design+graphic representation plus an intricate, abstracted system. So there's some bad faith going on here when some people gripe about some games sometimes - they're not being fully honest with themselves or with the audience

Or some people have standards, and that is too low a standard.

Agreed.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Strap Yourselves In
The worsening of games from the point of view of those of us who prefer the deeper blend of the two elements isn't an artifact of game developers getting worse, but of game developers getting better at servicing the lowest common denominator.

Isn't that the 'actual' definition of getting worse?..... "becoming more able at aiming low"

It depends on what the goal is. If it's making money ...
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,230
Location
Ingrija
I am not buying into this shit either way, however, I do expect and demand from developers to make a serious effort.

I wouldn't feel as special giving no fucks about immersion when there is nothing to immerse into to begin with.
 

gurugeorge

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It depends on what the goal is. If it's making money ...

But we aren't talking about 'intent' we are talking about 'result'.

Well, the AAA developers succeed in making money.

Although sometimes I wonder. I remember when the first Dragon Age was a surprise hit. Now I'm not saying DA is the bee's knees in terms of gameplay, but it was at the time a bit of a throwback to earlier RPGs, it had a bit of inventory tetris, etc., etc. The second game streamlined a lot of that away; but for all that streamlining, was it as successful? BioWare did something similar with the Mass Effect iterations - chasing after the bigger market by streamlining away some of the intricacy of the first game. But did they get what they wanted?

I think probably ME2 was more of a success than DA2 relatively speaking, but still, you get the point. Maybe sometimes (not always but sometime) there are windows of opportunity for developers to make games that are more thoughtful and intricate, so long as they hit a sweet spot with a combination of appealing graphics and marketing. In a sense, such games perhaps inveigle or seduce people into dipping their toes into the sort of gameplay that they consciously think "isn't for them, it's not me." But once they get into it they discover they like it after all.

And maybe you could say AAA developers should try to hit that sweet spot more often, rather than settling for the lowest common denominator. But I guess the business guys are always going to push for the certainty of return and profit, rather than the risk of less return if the devs get it wrong.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Developer
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16,947
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Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I don't really know what immersion mean. Do I need to be so lost in the game, that I almost don't realise that I'm playing a game? In that case I have never been immersed in any games, because I always know that I'm playing a game.

On the other hand if immersion means that I'm focused on the game and time flies by quickly when playing, then yes, I've been immersed. But it is not a quality of the game you can pinpoint. It is the sum of every part of the game.
 

Hag

Arbiter
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Breizh
Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
I don't understand the vote. How can you rate immersion on a scale ? Do you say "I love the immersion in this game, it has at least a significant presence". You are immersed or not, it is like suspension of disbelief.

And if you are not immersed in a game, be it in its story, its atmosphere or its mechanics, you may be better doing something else with your time because it means you are bored.
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
76
I don't understand the vote. How can you rate immersion on a scale ? Do you say "I love the immersion in this game, it has at least a significant presence". You are immersed or not, it is like suspension of disbelief.

And if you are not immersed in a game, be it in its story, its atmosphere or its mechanics, you may be better doing something else with your time because it means you are bored.

Lol.. dude, we're all stuck at home... Who here ISN'T playing a game they consider boring? I mean I'm working through CP 2077 FFS.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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What defines your immersion then?

I guess the best definition I can come up with is being able to imagine my characters place in the world, being able to visualize the world itself, what they are experiencing, etc. This can come from good looking natural environments, good voice acting or writing, a decent narrative, usually a combination of one or more.

Yeah, I agree.. it's visualisation and personal connection and perception... Explaining my earlier comment in context, I simply can't visualise my character in the world if I'm looking through the 'box' of an FP.. that's why Third person does it for me, because it assists in my visualisation and perception of the character and my surroundings... if I'm wearing, what amounts to a set of blinkers.. I'm too busy concentrating on the blinkers to 'lose' myself in the game.

This relates to another topic that's always been a pet peeve of mine. People often say that FP is more immersive and more realistic. And it is - if you're simulating tunnel vision. Which you would be doing in a situation like in a dungeon where you're feeling intense fear and apprehension.

But under most circumstances TP is more immersive and realistic because it mimics the situational awareness that one normally has going about the world - one's sense of the position and placement of things around one, as a result of the combination of constant saccading of the eyes and looking around, and one's sense of 3-d placement from the ears.

The downside of TP is that it sometimes affords one the abilityi to "cheat" by looking around corners where one doesn't normally have LOS. I'm playing Stellar Tactics at the moment, which has true LOS even though it's in TP. What this means is that if you're approaching an entrance to a big space, while you can look around that space by panning the camera, but you won't necessarily spot the mobs lurking just on either side of the door until you walk in and turn in either direction. This is wonderful for gameplay once you get used to it, but necessarily it's a compromise that gets rid of the "cheating" problem from TP, but at the cost of mobs apparently suddenly appearing out of nowhere sometimes, and you having to get used to that greater realism! :)
 
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Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Define "immersion"?

Being so focused on a game that I lose track of everything else is fine. Generally it also means the game lacks very annoying aspects that take me out of the experience and constantly remind me I'm playing a product made by human beings (e.g. awful controls, awful interface). This is something every game should strive for.

If by "immersion" you mean "the world feels alive", then sure, it's great, but most videogames don't feel alive at all and I enjoy them just the same. Moreover, a lot of games try very hard to achieve this sort of "immersion" (or at least pretend to try and advertise themselves as such), but what ends up happening is that the things they focus on tend to draw even more attention to the artificiality of everything, e.g. Skyrim's NPCs repeating the same shit all the time and doing the same AI routines day after day.
 

Hag

Arbiter
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I don't understand the vote. How can you rate immersion on a scale ? Do you say "I love the immersion in this game, it has at least a significant presence". You are immersed or not, it is like suspension of disbelief.

And if you are not immersed in a game, be it in its story, its atmosphere or its mechanics, you may be better doing something else with your time because it means you are bored.

Lol.. dude, we're all stuck at home... Who here ISN'T playing a game they consider boring? I mean I'm working through CP 2077 FFS.
Sorry for you, but you don't have to put yourself through boring experiences. Maybe try some old shit, it's often free so you have nothing to lose and may be pleasantly surprised. I mean, I am replaying almost 25 years later the first Rayman and it's pretty great actually.
 

Max Damage

Savant
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Messages
661
Define "immersion"?

Being so focused on a game that I lose track of everything else is fine. Generally it also means the game lacks very annoying aspects that take me out of the experience and constantly remind me I'm playing a product made by human beings (e.g. awful controls, awful interface). This is something every game should strive for.

If by "immersion" you mean "the world feels alive", then sure, it's great, but most videogames don't feel alive at all and I enjoy them just the same. Moreover, a lot of games try very hard to achieve this sort of "immersion" (or at least pretend to try and advertise themselves as such), but what ends up happening is that the things they focus on tend to draw even more attention to the artificiality of everything, e.g. Skyrim's NPCs repeating the same shit all the time and doing the same AI routines day after day.
This post says it best. It surely feels great to witness a good simulation like in Space Rangers where daily routes of other pilots aren't scripted and war with enemy happens even if you're not participating (and yes, that means you can lose on higher difficulty if you're not helping enough), but this isn't something that's possible on scale of every game and may even be irrelevant. I do think that at the very least things need to make SOME sense - it's much easier to accept some improbable things (people traveling across the desert to gamble at casinos that work somehow in scarcity society, radiation superpowers, football armor) when most of the worldbuilding seems probable and gives enough context to accept the unlikely. I would forgive Fallout 3, for example, if at least half of it made any sense. It's hard to get invested into struggle of supposedly dieing area when people do just fine despite being harrased daily by endless mutants and raiders - after all, they don't have to worry about petty things like growing food, building up industry or plans for the future of some kind.
Nothing speaks immersion better than a game where dragons are so pathetic that peasants rush to punch them in the face :lol:

Town guards will routinely beat the shit out of dragons IIRC.
They do, they can even perform the flashy fatalities on them. Makes you feel much less special for being the legendary Dragonborn, doesn't it? :lol:
 
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