Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Star Wars Battlefront 2 - now with lootbox drama

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,513
My understanding is that the vast majority of planets in Star Wars are nowhere near as populated as a planet like Earth. Presumably due to easy space travel most planets are comparable to a single earth city since unless it's an amazingly good planet there's no reason to settle anything beyond the single best place or so. And on the galactic scale of millions of planets, taking out a single one with a million or so people isn't particularly notable. The Death Star being used against Alderaan was only notable because it was one of the particularly populated worlds and it was able to be accomplished so easily with no shield defense or (presumably) fleet able to stop it. This is as opposed to leveling a planet with the rest of the imperial fleet which required a lot of time and a huge concentration of force that left the rest of the galaxy undefended. Also you can be certain the Death Star being used on Alderaan was the personal wish of the Emperor, Tarkin wouldn't have just randomly blown up a planet.

Also, the Empire (from the original trilogy) is supposed to be efficiently evil. Not just wantonly cruel. Destroying a planet that is majority loyal imperial citizens to kill some rebels doesn't really make sense in that context. The evilness of the empire goes the other way, they care nothing about throwing endless stormtroopers or tie fighters at a problem because they consider these assets utterly disposable and replaceable.
Alderaan was known to be a peaceful planet where the people laid down arms rather than fight. It was a completely defenceless planet because its people wanted it that way. They buried their weapons. Tarkin could have waltz in with a squad of stormtroopers and there was nothing the Alderaanians could do about it. Instead, he blew up a planet of hippies.

It was more that Tarkin understood that you can't control a galaxy with just force. It is just too big and has too many people. You need fear to keep the people in line. It is something that various governments in history and today is doing to maintain power.

The Empire was never efficient. There was corruption, backstabbing, and all the lovely normalities of a bunch of sociopaths getting together to become top dog. The Emperor himself was prone to playing wasteful games of dominance for his own amusement.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
But of course, one can hardly expect non-shit writing in a contemporary MP shooter... What I find astonishing is that there are apparently people who write shit plot lines like this for living when most people who GMed some PnP RPG at some point could probably come up with something more interesting than "after x years of service you find out that your commander is a lunatic."
People who write for interactive mediums tend to be far better video game writers than the young adult fiction writers the video game industry tends to hire.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
Operation Cinder was basically Palpatine ordering the Empire to commit suicide.

And this is the problem, the Empire in the EU almost immediate broke into fractions because there was no system set to replace Palpatine, the Empire did not had complete loyalty towards Palpatine and a post-morten command that was akin to "kill yourselves" was going to be ignored by the majority.

Disney made a fucking mess because before the EU simply made the Empire starting to fall into parts as the Rebellion turned into the Republic and started to take over the parts the Empire remnants could not hold, funny enough this is were The Mandalorian been doing as they are still around but cannot openly face the Republic because of all they have lost since Endor.

This game story is a mess but a lot is due to then wanting or having to follow into Disney canon, this is why it goes from Endor to Jakku and they are struck with Disney canon as a result ... it also lacked the balls to show a ever growing disillusioned Imperial officer as that Strong Independent Women only switched because Vardos being destroyed that makes her a hypocrite but thats typical of modern writing because its not as if wouldnt have known about the truth behind Alderaan destruction unless she is such a fucking tool what tips her over is "the death of loyal Imperial Citizens" as if that ever mattered to the Empire.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
Obviously Palpatine himself only wanted power and the Sith to rise to prominence, but wouldn't the fascist government he built under him have some kind of nationalist equivalent ideology? It's possible that would keep them together after Palpatine died, but I admit I am not a historian and don't know the parallels. I guess the ones I do know, a central figure was essential, so meh.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,231
The original trilogy was too vague to really say anything about how the canonical empire would have fallen, and the expanded universe, while better than anything Disney has made, is still a completely schizophrenic mess.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say that there was still significant continuity between the Republic and the Empire and that most viewed it as a simple transition from one to the other and back. Think Rome having a temporary dictator and then going back to the Republic. The difference being that there were no equally popular and powerful successors to take power in the Empire like Rome had after Caesar. Rome didn't just blindly acknowledge successors, you had to be effectively democratically "confirmed" by being popular/feared at some level with all the military/aristocrats/people of Rome or else you were either getting assassinated or end up fighting a civil war for power that you'd lose. Obviously the Empire didn't have someone to meet these requirements. Maybe Vader could have. But he also wasn't really a politician, so I'm not sure if he'd fare well. Rome was kind of unique in that politicians also served as provincial administrators of large portions of the empire along with serving as Generals, which allowed them to amass both a lot of experience and a lot of influence and support. To effectively take charge of the dying Empire you'd really need a similarly multifaceted person.

The Empire only lasted for ~23 years and the Senate was still in operation there for ~20 of those years. There's not really time to build up the Empire as a significantly distinct ideological force I'd say. Additionally, while the defining trait of the Empire is "we're the bad guys and will smash down dissent", they justified this based on the fact that the Clone Wars itself was bad enough, no one wanted a repeat, and the Republic was already acting fairly ruthless then anyway. It was never a from the ground up ideology that was promulgated like "survival of the fittest" or "the strong should rule". Yes I get that that's what the Sith are like but AFAIK the Empire didn't order that school curricula be turned into Sith doctrinal teachings. Nor is it likely that the Empire ever even could exert that kind of control, after all it couldn't even effectively patrol the galaxy and had to rely on fear to keep planets in line. For the majority of people who were just living their lives in the outskirts of the Empire its death was probably just a notification that the galactic mailbox that you write taxes to was changed.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,118
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Obviously Palpatine himself only wanted power and the Sith to rise to prominence, but wouldn't the fascist government he built under him have some kind of nationalist equivalent ideology? It's possible that would keep them together after Palpatine died, but I admit I am not a historian and don't know the parallels. I guess the ones I do know, a central figure was essential, so meh.

Well, at least in the last two centuries there have basically been two kinds of autocratic nationalists: the ones who won and succeeded in their wars and population purges and the ones who didn't. The former generally rule as "lifetime" leaders (read: until the next coup), but they also tend to so completely traumatize their population that whatever form of rule comes next at least makes some changes to the system of governance; the latter generally end up dead or exiled, which gives the general populace a convenient scapegoat ("I never wanted to be a soldier in the Nazi Army, I was just afraid of the consequences of not going along with Hitler, please don't execute me for war-crimes"). Populations do occasionally coalesce around defeated ideologies, but it tends to take a couple generations for it to build to a critical mass; atavism is a powerful force, especially when tied to a "lost" cultural or political ancestral identity.

Edit: NK is the most obvious exception here, and I don't know that much about it. I know most of the foreign policy wonks I know were surprised that there was not a coup during the transition from Il to Un, so it's possible we're seeing something new (or perhaps dynastically old) there I suppose, but I think it much more likely it's just taking a little longer there due to the chokehold on media access.

The original trilogy was too vague to really say anything about how the canonical empire would have fallen, and the expanded universe, while better than anything Disney has made, is still a completely schizophrenic mess.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say that there was still significant continuity between the Republic and the Empire and that most viewed it as a simple transition from one to the other and back. Think Rome having a temporary dictator and then going back to the Republic. The difference being that there were no equally popular and powerful successors to take power in the Empire like Rome had after Caesar. Rome didn't just blindly acknowledge successors, you had to be effectively democratically "confirmed" by being popular/feared at some level with all the military/aristocrats/people of Rome or else you were either getting assassinated or end up fighting a civil war for power that you'd lose. Obviously the Empire didn't have someone to meet these requirements. Maybe Vader could have. But he also wasn't really a politician, so I'm not sure if he'd fare well. Rome was kind of unique in that politicians also served as provincial administrators of large portions of the empire along with serving as Generals, which allowed them to amass both a lot of experience and a lot of influence and support. To effectively take charge of the dying Empire you'd really need a similarly multifaceted person.

The Empire only lasted for ~23 years and the Senate was still in operation there for ~20 of those years. There's not really time to build up the Empire as a significantly distinct ideological force I'd say. Additionally, while the defining trait of the Empire is "we're the bad guys and will smash down dissent", they justified this based on the fact that the Clone Wars itself was bad enough, no one wanted a repeat, and the Republic was already acting fairly ruthless then anyway. It was never a from the ground up ideology that was promulgated like "survival of the fittest" or "the strong should rule". Yes I get that that's what the Sith are like but AFAIK the Empire didn't order that school curricula be turned into Sith doctrinal teachings. Nor is it likely that the Empire ever even could exert that kind of control, after all it couldn't even effectively patrol the galaxy and had to rely on fear to keep planets in line. For the majority of people who were just living their lives in the outskirts of the Empire its death was probably just a notification that the galactic mailbox that you write taxes to was changed.

My dude, I am a lifelong Star Wars nerd (well, used to be, now I'm old and Disney's ravaged the franchise), and at one point as a teenager I could have given you indices both alphabetical and chronological of all major players, planets, and events in the EU, so take it from me when I say you are seriously overthinking this shit; the Empire are just a very basic brushstrokes version of Nazism; basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity, cult of personality, and strict chain of command. They're not meant to be realistic or intelligent, they're meant to be big, bombastic, moustache-twirling* villains. That's it. It's a George Lucas movie, there's no room for subtlety there.

*Without the actual moustaches... filthy things.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,231
My dude, I am a lifelong Star Wars nerd (well, used to be, now I'm old and Disney's ravaged the franchise), and at one point as a teenager I could have given you indices both alphabetical and chronological of all major players, planets, and events in the EU, so take it from me when I say you are seriously overthinking this shit; the Empire are just a very basic brushstrokes version of Nazism; basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity, cult of personality, and strict chain of command. They're not meant to be realistic or intelligent, they're meant to be big, bombastic, moustache-twirling* villains. That's it. It's a George Lucas movie, there's no room for subtlety there.

Aside from a chain of command I disagree. The empire clearly uses aliens and I don't really see the cult of personality thing going on when imperial officers will openly disrespect Vader to his face. The Empire does smart, realistic things in every movie, and while Vader does kill people when they majorly fuck up he also doesn't wantonly kill or hurt his underlings just because something went wrong like an actual caricature of villians would (i.e. like mouse SW).
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,513
My dude, I am a lifelong Star Wars nerd (well, used to be, now I'm old and Disney's ravaged the franchise), and at one point as a teenager I could have given you indices both alphabetical and chronological of all major players, planets, and events in the EU, so take it from me when I say you are seriously overthinking this shit; the Empire are just a very basic brushstrokes version of Nazism; basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity, cult of personality, and strict chain of command. They're not meant to be realistic or intelligent, they're meant to be big, bombastic, moustache-twirling* villains. That's it. It's a George Lucas movie, there's no room for subtlety there.

Aside from a chain of command I disagree. The empire clearly uses aliens and I don't really see the cult of personality thing going on when imperial officers will openly disrespect Vader to his face. The Empire does smart, realistic things in every movie, and while Vader does kill people when they majorly fuck up he also doesn't wantonly kill or hurt his underlings just because something went wrong like an actual caricature of villians would (i.e. like mouse SW).
The beginning of ESB does show Vader killing an underling for failing to capture the Falcon at Hoth.
 
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 22, 2020
Messages
2,193
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
That would be admiral Ozzel and he was killed for general incompetence in commanding the the fleet that attacked Hoth. Empire could basically end the rebellion by decapitating its leadership through a surprise assault, but instead a significant number of rebels (including all the important ones) got away, which ultimately made the Imperial victory in the battle hollow.

I would count that as a "major fuck up" rather than "wanton killing or hurting underlings just because something went wrong."
 

Xelocix

Learned
Joined
Dec 25, 2020
Messages
458
Location
Your moms panty drawer
Been playing the campaign on and off for the past few days and it's probably one of the most poorly designed, predictable, and uninspired singleplayer campaigns I've ever played in a videogame. The entire thing just feels like a padded out extended tutorial. If it takes over 2 more hours to beat I'm just going to drop it.
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,823
Divinity: Original Sin
That would be admiral Ozzel and he was killed for general incompetence in commanding the the fleet that attacked Hoth. Empire could basically end the rebellion by decapitating its leadership through a surprise assault, but instead a significant number of rebels (including all the important ones) got away, which ultimately made the Imperial victory in the battle hollow.

I would count that as a "major fuck up" rather than "wanton killing or hurting underlings just because something went wrong."

That was the first murder but there was the other one after Falcon got away. One of the more famous SW quotes are of that scene. "Apology accepted, Captain Needa" after Force choking him to death. Then there's the filmed but cut scene of RotJ where Vader is going to choke the commander of the Second Death Star as well before Emperor's will was invoked
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
The beginning of ESB does show Vader killing an underling for failing to capture the Falcon at Hoth.

Admiral Ozzel does two blunders, first he dismisses the probe communication of Hoth as "nothing" and then jumps the Fleet close into Hoth orbit that makes the Rebels to just power up the shield.
Captain Needa loses the Falcon after it does a flyby by the Star Destroyer bridge.

Vader does not just lose it like Kylo Ren does, in both instances he punishes then for their failure and not just strikes at some random officer that was just standing there. The only time I think we say Vader losing it was during ANH at the start when he was interrogating one of the Tantive IV crew.
 

wahrk

Learned
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Messages
216
basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity

When? I don’t remember this ever being mentioned anywhere in the original movies. I’ve heard this brought up before but it seems like something that people have projected onto the Empire just because of the Nazi inspiration, not because there’s actually anything to support this in the films themselves.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,118
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity

When? I don’t remember this ever being mentioned anywhere in the original movies. I’ve heard this brought up before but it seems like something that people have projected onto the Empire just because of the Nazi inspiration, not because there’s actually anything to support this in the films themselves.
Well, it's pretty implicit in that we never see an alien member of the Imperial army (in contrast with the Rebel Alliance). Piett's reaction to Vader bringing bounty hunters on board the Executor in ESB is also indicative of it. I also believe it was made explicit in some of the script treatments of the original Star Wars.

But yes, you're correct that it's not explicit in the theatrical versions of the original trilogy, only heavily implied. I don't think it was made explicit until Thrawn/Zahn.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,118
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Aside from a chain of command I disagree. The empire clearly uses aliens and I don't really see the cult of personality thing going on when imperial officers will openly disrespect Vader to his face. The Empire does smart, realistic things in every movie, and while Vader does kill people when they majorly fuck up he also doesn't wantonly kill or hurt his underlings just because something went wrong like an actual caricature of villians would (i.e. like mouse SW).

Sure, the Empire uses aliens, but they don't allow them to serve in their armed forces, and they only use them in places that they don't have a strong military presence (e.g. Garindan on Tatooine) or as slave labor. It can be inferred that they are using them only as a means to an end, and a non-human purge is an eventuality in their dominance of the galaxy.
Vader is only a General in the Imperial Army, most of the Empire has been brainwashed into believing the Force was Fake News (Tarkin being an exception), so especially the admiralty don't view Vader as more than a brutish peer (especially in Star Wars/A New Hope), which is why they're willing to disrespect him; they don't understand his true standing in the Empire because the Emperor has gone to great pains to keep it secret.
The cult of personality thing is never really shown, only told (which is admittedly bad writing, but hey, it's George Lucas), in the scene where Tarkin discusses the dissolution of the Senate. Lucas clearly tried to take the cult of personality aspect further in the prequels with Palpatine's political machinations, but he's a terrible writer and it didn't work at all. Doesn't mean it wasn't always asserted to be part of their ideology.
 

wahrk

Learned
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Messages
216
basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity

When? I don’t remember this ever being mentioned anywhere in the original movies. I’ve heard this brought up before but it seems like something that people have projected onto the Empire just because of the Nazi inspiration, not because there’s actually anything to support this in the films themselves.
Well, it's pretty implicit in that we never see an alien member of the Imperial army (in contrast with the Rebel Alliance). Piett's reaction to Vader bringing bounty hunters on board the Executor in ESB is also indicative of it. I also believe it was made explicit in some of the script treatments of the original Star Wars.

But yes, you're correct that it's not explicit in the theatrical versions of the original trilogy, only heavily implied. I don't think it was made explicit until Thrawn/Zahn.

Piett does make a remark about “bounty hunter scum, we don’t need them”, but you could easily interpret that as Piett being offended that the Empire was resorting to hiring seedy criminal types to do a job that he felt they were capable of doing themselves. Two of the bounty hunters are human, after all. I’m not sure how much you can infer from that one offhand comment.

IMO the only real implication comes from, as you said, the standard Imperial forces being exclusively human while the Rebels are a mix. Even that isn’t really consistent until RotJ, though. Unless I’m forgetting someone, I’m pretty sure the entire rebel alliance in the first film is human, while the Empire is shown working with an alien informant at the beginning.

I don’t know anything about it being in the scripts though, so maybe you’re right. Honestly I always figured George just cast all of the relevant characters as humans because it was a movie, and they didn’t want to make 15 different kinds of Stormtrooper helmets. Then the EU had to come up with an ad-hoc explanation to justify things. Even then it still doesn’t make perfect sense. When Palpatine reorganized the Republic into the Empire, did he also start purging all the aliens that were in government and replacing them with humans? I never read the Zahn books, but isn’t Thrawn an alien too? Or is he exempt because he’s humanoid?
 
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 22, 2020
Messages
2,193
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
The "human supremacism" of the Empire is never made explicit in the (original) movies (well, IIRC when Chewbacca is taken to the prison on the first Death Star in ANH the guards make some "racist" comments about him being a beast, but given the context I guess it doesn’t mean much), but it is very well established in the EU novels. In pre-Disney EU, it was actually quite a big deal that the Imperial Remnant started to allow aliens to become stormtroopers, though this happened very late in the post-Thrawn period (IIRC not that long before the Yuzaan Vong invasion) when Gilad Pellaeon was in charge and the Remnant were no longer portrayed as that much of bad guys.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,513
basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity

When? I don’t remember this ever being mentioned anywhere in the original movies. I’ve heard this brought up before but it seems like something that people have projected onto the Empire just because of the Nazi inspiration, not because there’s actually anything to support this in the films themselves.
Well, it's pretty implicit in that we never see an alien member of the Imperial army (in contrast with the Rebel Alliance). Piett's reaction to Vader bringing bounty hunters on board the Executor in ESB is also indicative of it. I also believe it was made explicit in some of the script treatments of the original Star Wars.

But yes, you're correct that it's not explicit in the theatrical versions of the original trilogy, only heavily implied. I don't think it was made explicit until Thrawn/Zahn.
It was made explicit in the EU only, IIRC...
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,118
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
basically the only thing that is ever revealed about their ideology in the original films is that they believe in racial purity

When? I don’t remember this ever being mentioned anywhere in the original movies. I’ve heard this brought up before but it seems like something that people have projected onto the Empire just because of the Nazi inspiration, not because there’s actually anything to support this in the films themselves.
Well, it's pretty implicit in that we never see an alien member of the Imperial army (in contrast with the Rebel Alliance). Piett's reaction to Vader bringing bounty hunters on board the Executor in ESB is also indicative of it. I also believe it was made explicit in some of the script treatments of the original Star Wars.

But yes, you're correct that it's not explicit in the theatrical versions of the original trilogy, only heavily implied. I don't think it was made explicit until Thrawn/Zahn.
It was made explicit in the EU only, IIRC...


... Which is what I said in the actual post you are quoting. Reading comprehension: what is it?

Look if you guys want to pretend that the whole racial purity thing wasn’t heavily implied by the original trilogy then that’s your prerogative, but they are called stormtroopers for fuck’s sake.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
IMO the only real implication comes from, as you said, the standard Imperial forces being exclusively human while the Rebels are a mix. Even that isn’t really consistent until RotJ, though. Unless I’m forgetting someone, I’m pretty sure the entire rebel alliance in the first film is human, while the Empire is shown working with an alien informant at the beginning.

Yes, I think Lucas was simply going for thematic with the Empire being very homogeneous and faceless because the Stromtroopers lack any individuality, Imperial Officers are hard to tell apart as the Rebels were a motley crew of riff raff going against the Empire and were far more varied, its still very human until Return as I suspect this was a budget problem since you can see how they took shortcuts in Empire with the Rebel Snow troops basically being the same so they could edit the scenes and make it look there were more with just few actors (same trick with Stormtroopers).

The "human bias" was EU, wasnt really in the OT outside people reading into "subtext".
 
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 22, 2020
Messages
2,193
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Yeah, I mean to be fair, all six movies made by Lucas are light-hearted family friendly entertainment so its little wonder that serious stuff like Empire´s racial policy don’t get any screen time. Things got seriously fleshed out only in the EU material where people actually had space to deal with other topics than just lightsabre duels and space pew pew. I remember reading somewhere that at its core the Empire´s ideology (called New Order) actually had "supremacy of Human male" (mind you that material must have been written in the 80s or early 90s, so the current year connotations where not there) as its core tenet (ie no women in Imperial uniforms in OT and admiral Daala being described as the highest ranking female officer ever and a Thrawn level exception to the rule).

New Order itself was basically a civic religion which emphasised rule of law and obedience to the state, along with xenophobia. So this stuff was supposed to be in effect from the start since Empire replaced the Republic, the question is whether Lucas simply chose not to push these themes in the movies (which would be understandable), or whether all this stuff became canon later on as the EU started to expand.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom