What's more important for an RPG: Char creation/customization or leveling up?

[JarlFrank]

Thought about this question after reading the CRPG Addict's blog and the guy considers leveling up an absolute core element of the genre, to the point that he considers a game with no char creation and a simplistic leveling system more of an RPG than a game with complex char creation but no leveling.

So let's set this straight with a Codex poll.

Let's take a look at two hypothetical games, both at opposite extremes. One of them has a complex and engaging character creation system, but no levelups. The other has no character creation and no customization, but it has leveling, and a lot of it.

In game A, you can choose everything about your character. Sex and appearance, skills, perks, etc. You can pick between a male or female character, customize his/her appearance, and you get 1000 points to invest into various stats and skills in a flexible classless system. There's a couple of Fallout-style perks you can buy with your points, too. You can play a female assassin who focuses on stealth, backstabs, and seduction. Or you can play a tough barbarian with high strength and high weapon skills but the charisma of a dead toad. Or you can play a wizard fully focused on intelligence and spellcasting, but zero points in any physical weapon skills. Or you can go for the jack of all trades.
But once you have created your character, that's it. Nothing in the game gives XP, you will never level up. You create your character and you're stuck with him/her.

In game B, there is no character creation. You play a male jack of all trades with 10 points in every stat and 1 point in every skill. You can't even customize his appearance, you gotta accept the ugly mug the devs chose for him. But there's a ton of leveling up to be done. Every action gives XP. Kill an enemy? XP. Pick a lock? XP. Finish a quest? XP. Talk to an NPC and find out a new piece of information? XP.
But whenever you level up, your character gets +1 in every stat and +1 in every skill, and that's it. You don't get to allocate any points as you see fit, the game just raises ALL your attributes by one on each level up. There is zero customization. You can't specialize into a fighter, thief, or mage, you are always gonna be a jack of all trades. There is no level cap, though, so you can keep leveling infinitely as long as you gather more XP.

Which of these is more of an RPG? Game A or game B?
The correct answer is, of course, "game A". This is not an opinion poll, it's a retard test.

 

[boot]

Level ups are more important, but both of these games sound like shit.

 

[Bester]

Imagine your girlfriend can either blow you or sleep with you. Now if she's doing just one thing and never the other, which of these two would make her a girl?

 

[Ghulgothas]

I prefer my character be made and fleshed out over the course of the game, rather than nuked in the oven of the game's character creator. But Game B Extreme's is too much for me, over-generalization with no room for specialization reeks of the modern trend of designers who not being allowed to make content that wouldn't be seen by everyone on their first playthrough. Utterly depriving their game of depth, nuance or player expression.

Game B(ethesda).

 

[Butter]

Every piece of AAA shovelware nowadays has levelups. Character creation (that is meaningful, ie non-cosmetic) is the essential part of the RPG.

 

[Zibniyat]

I.. hate character creation, I usually just storm through the inevitable tedious of it all. I also dislike having to spend hours thinking on whether my build will suffice in providing me with both enjoyment and the ability to finish the game, and all that before I even started playing the game. "Read the manual", no I will fucking not, I want to play the game, you know, not read walls of text outside of it.

Make it simple at the start and then progressively more complex and difficult. As a rule I play games on the hardest difficulty unless it means single life or obnoxious HP-bloat of enemies. So it is not that I am against challenge, complexity or difficulty, I am simply not having the time nor patience any more to waste getting into the game that I may drop mere hours into it if I find out I dislike it.

So, that would mean I would rather prefer the latter kind of RPGs. Even prefab characters are fine, complete with disadvantages.

 

[Saduj]

The poll doesn’t match the description of the games in the post as what is described in “game B” isn’t leveling up.

 

[markec]

If there is no options to change or influence your build and you just play a character with preset skills its as no different then having no skills at all.

Playing a RPG with no leveling but with a character with low intelligence and high strength and a new character with low strength and high intelligence will force you into different experience of the game.

Playing the same game with jack of all trade with leveling only making you a bit tougher will make every playtrough the same.

I can imagine a rougelike RPG where every time you start a game or die you are rolled with a different character with different stats and different abilities. Making your change your style of play with each character.

 

[Reader]

Forgive me but the topic is kinda silly and examples are not good.
Leveling up or char's creation don't matter as long as developers do things right.
Deus Ex has close to none char's creation and no leveling up. Still great rpg.

 

[markec]

Forgive me but the topic is kinda silly and examples are not good.
Leveling up or char's creation don't matter as long as developers do things right.
Deus Ex has close to none char's creation and no leveling up. Still great rpg.

Deus Ex has options to choose different skills at the start of the game and you have a character progression with upgrading skills and augments (which can open different way of solving missions).

 

[Yaz]

Game B sounds more like scaling. To give you an example CP2077 does that. Most of the leveling up choices are meaningless as the scaling of the character takes care of pretty much everything. You deal more damage, have more hp, craft better stuff, unlock next tier of upgrades, ect. It's not good.

I think having a divergent(simple to grasp, yet complex with combinations and options) leveling up skill system is preferable to a complex character creation system as it will pace the game better without making the player spend too much time creating said character. I.e., the game will flow better.

That isn't to say that character creation must be discarded, forgotten, ignored, ect. But too much customization during character creation can also be bad, or more like - tedious.

 

[Poseidon00]

Char customization and leveling up go hand in hand. Honestly, Morrowind does this the best. I want to be able to customize my skills, and then maximize my skills way beyond the normal mortal maximum by use of magic or whatever else. Give me the ability to jump over mountains, have the Luck of the Gods, brew a poison that can kill a dragon, or summon an armies worth of creatures at once if I invest my entire character into one skill.

 

[Reader]

Deus Ex has options to choose different skills at the start of the game

DE is the best i could remember without turning to jrpgs

progression with upgrading skills and augments

Still no leveling up. Honestly i can't remember any rpg which would has the build set for the whole game(no perks or skills too).

 

[Burning Bridges]

Still no leveling up. Honestly i can't remember any rpg which would has the build set for the whole game(no perks or skills too).

I know at least 1 game where a character could level down

https://jaggedalliance.fandom.com/wiki/Larry_Roachburn

 

[Marquis de Lirium]

Given the limitations laid out in the OP I would go with game A, but honestly I think it is a rather pointless question when you put it this way. Game B, i.e. a game without any possibility of character customization simply cannot be classified as an RPG and that's it. I realize that it is somewhat vague what exactly makes an RPG, but some level of influence on the traits of the player character is clearly a prerequisite.

A more interesting question is whether character creation or character development is the more important mechanic. Intuitively, I would lean towards character development since there are games without initial character creation which are nevertheless great RPGs (Gothic comes to mind). I cannot think of a game that does the opposite, although I believe it could actually be an interesting option for a certain kind of game. Immersive simulations are a prime example.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Game A is RPG without the progression. Does classify, but sucks.
Game B is not RPG at all.

 

[octavius]

With no leveling up some of the incentive to play the game is missing.
I'm usually happy to play with fixed characters or pregens, and selecting things like appearance is just a chore.

So basically I'm more relaxed about character creation that I am about character development.

 

[Geckabor]

Given the two choices, I'd pick game A, since it just sounds more engaging and does more with its limitations.

Generally speaking though, I'm a huge sucker for progression and level ups. I usually lose motivation in games where my progression is halted. Playing solely for an RPG's usual gameplay loops tends to become boring rather quickly, unless it has amazing combat or excels in some other area.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

I had voted level-up because I thought the poll was either "you customize more at chargen" vs "you customize more as you level-up", in which case I prefer the second one so that I can granuarily understand the game concept and still start playing quick. That being said, as it is presented in the OP, I don't see any appeal in the "level-up" portion: it's very boring. I wonder if people that voted for it didn't read (as I had done previously).

 

[V_K]

In game B, there is no character creation. You play a male jack of all trades

If you play a jack of all trades, that's still more flexibility than such games usually allow. Usually, when you have a preset character, his class is also locked to something narrow.

Basically, people who have trouble imagining game B - think of a single character JRPG.

 

[Lurker47]

Meaningful level-up seems a lot more fun than an extensive character-creation, theoretically. However game B seems to be more along the lines of really old, proto-CRPG's, really bad JRPG's, or triple A "RPG elements". I sense there was an innate and intentional bias involved with this thread's creation.

 

[Desiderius]

WTF kind of question is this? Both and lots of it or find some other shitty genre.

We’re not playing Myst here.

 

[V_K]

I sense there was an innate and intentional bias involved with this thread's creation.

It's not bias, it's just some details of the original discussion got lost in translation. It originated in CRPGAddict's blog over the latter's decision to exclude from his list games that allow character creation as long as there's no leveling, but include games with just max HP as the only character stat as long as that one stat grows over time.

Basically, the question is - what is more important: that you get to customize your character (in any way, at any point) or that said character grows in power (irrespective of customization).

 

[JarlFrank]

Meaningful level-up seems a lot more fun than an extensive character-creation, theoretically. However game B seems to be more along the lines of really old, proto-CRPG's, really bad JRPG's, or triple A "RPG elements". I sense there was an innate and intentional bias involved with this thread's creation.

The intention was from an argument I had in CRPG Addict's comments. He recently played a shitty JRPG which played exactly like game B: no character creation, no customization, just grinding for XP and fixed levelups.

But he considers it more of an RPG than a game with character creation but no levelups, because he thinks the levelups are one of the most important elements of the genre.

I think character customization is more important. So let's take two extreme games that only have one but not the other, and ponder which one qualifies as more of an RPG.

 

[jungl]

Thing is CRPGS have character customization but its often shit and meaningless. DnD for example end of the day you are either a 1) A spellcaster 2) high base bonus class or low base attack bonus class. Might and magic games etc.

Where it ends up the jrpgs with set characters have "just level ups become more mechanically interesting games due to combat system and itemization.