InSight
Learned
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2020
- Messages
- 421
Definitions:
When one define, one must look for the most essential aspect, the major,the deep ,the significant, the root, the seed (that grow into a tree), the innermost the micro and/over/than the macro, the outermost, the tree(flower,fruits, even branches),
leafs, the insignificant, the shallow, the minor, the none-essential.
Mine observation/assumption/speculation is that the majority factor the external/outside/skin alone which can cause
confusion and faulty design or lead to faulty debates/topic/arguments.
If the definition is solid like the groundwork of the pyramids (who still stand after thousands) it will last/serve
longer, prevailing quakes/arguments until a higher definition replaces it. A faulty definition would cause arguments, a blow of air would tarnish/crumble/destroy it like a house of cards if reason/logic/thought is sufficient.
The following will attempt at least in a degree higher relatively/compared/in contrast to what other
posted in this forum, to define CRPG (the age long question parroted/repeated "what is an RPG"). Provide a frameworks, measuring line that shall make things more obvious(as black on white) so that better discussion follow for these that care. If such concepts/frameworks from the following already been mention(i am certain some have), than i failed to notice/remember them.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
The Root aspect of RPG, minor preface
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Wrong category for defining CRPG:Stats and its commoness
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Differentiating CRPG from other genres
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Defining Aspects, the parameter Overlooked: Dynamic Roles and Behaviors
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Application in context of known/renowned CRPG
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
What most CRPG are:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
To Summarize/Compress/Refine
-Multiplayer and thus human player(and their like)
-Not factoring/using Stats(for all electronic games are based on stats, numbers 0's and 1' even physical sport game such
as Football (the counting of score/goals).
-The multitude/Variety of roles from the pc and the npc, the warrior, the shopkeeper, the thief the healer, the farmer, the
lower animals and higher beings ect.
-The dynamics betwen the roles, that they are interchangeable, their behavior from friend or foe, good to evil and vise
versa.
-The multitude/Vareiety of action/interactions/reaction betwen the above two(roles and behaviours) on micro(characters,
objects) and macro(factions,settings, world.)
Remember/Know/Beware that just as we don't live in a vacuum, just as we move on at least two legs, that at least three points are required for comparing (for how else we would measure in an example such as which of two equal/same sized object in outer-space would be higher or how far they are apart without a 3rd point of reference. So is it that one should not define things based on one factor (despite what most poster do based on their one liner/short posts).
By comparing we measure, by comparing we factor. Encompass/consider/count as much factors/parameter possible/conceivable and one can define what is RPG and what makes it good and bad on the widest/deepest scale possible. Which is the most significant among them can be measured an answered.
Define
Parameter
definition is - to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of. b : to discover and set forth the meaning of
(something, such as a word)
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/define
(The key word here is essentail)
(something, such as a word)
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/define
(The key word here is essentail)
Parameter
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A parameter (from the Ancient Greek παρ?, para: "beside", "subsidiary"; and μ?τρον, metron: "measure"), generally, is any characteristic that can help in defining or classifying a particular system (meaning an event, project, object, situation,etc.).
That is, a parameter is an element of a system that is useful, or critical, when identifying the system, or when
evaluating its performance, status, condition, etc.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/parameter
a set of facts or a fixed limit that establishes or limits how something can or must happen or be done:
The researchers must keep within the parameters of the experiment.
The central office sets/establishes the parameters that guide policy at the local level.
a fixed limit that establishes how something should be done:
Aspin outlined the parameters of the debate between Congress and the Pentagon.
a set of facts which describes and puts limits on how something should happen or be done...
A parameter (from the Ancient Greek παρ?, para: "beside", "subsidiary"; and μ?τρον, metron: "measure"), generally, is any characteristic that can help in defining or classifying a particular system (meaning an event, project, object, situation,etc.).
That is, a parameter is an element of a system that is useful, or critical, when identifying the system, or when
evaluating its performance, status, condition, etc.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/parameter
a set of facts or a fixed limit that establishes or limits how something can or must happen or be done:
The researchers must keep within the parameters of the experiment.
The central office sets/establishes the parameters that guide policy at the local level.
a fixed limit that establishes how something should be done:
Aspin outlined the parameters of the debate between Congress and the Pentagon.
a set of facts which describes and puts limits on how something should happen or be done...
When one define, one must look for the most essential aspect, the major,the deep ,the significant, the root, the seed (that grow into a tree), the innermost the micro and/over/than the macro, the outermost, the tree(flower,fruits, even branches),
leafs, the insignificant, the shallow, the minor, the none-essential.
Mine observation/assumption/speculation is that the majority factor the external/outside/skin alone which can cause
confusion and faulty design or lead to faulty debates/topic/arguments.
If the definition is solid like the groundwork of the pyramids (who still stand after thousands) it will last/serve
longer, prevailing quakes/arguments until a higher definition replaces it. A faulty definition would cause arguments, a blow of air would tarnish/crumble/destroy it like a house of cards if reason/logic/thought is sufficient.
The following will attempt at least in a degree higher relatively/compared/in contrast to what other
posted in this forum, to define CRPG (the age long question parroted/repeated "what is an RPG"). Provide a frameworks, measuring line that shall make things more obvious(as black on white) so that better discussion follow for these that care. If such concepts/frameworks from the following already been mention(i am certain some have), than i failed to notice/remember them.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
The Root aspect of RPG, minor preface
RPG definition
Dungeons & Dragons, the first commercially available role-playing game, was published in 1974 by Dave Arneson's and E.
Gary Gygax's TSR, and according to info provided by Zed duke of banville (if i recall/memory serves) Gygax
coined/derived the term Role Playing Game from the exisiting field of Psychology(Psy=soul Logi(logic)=study/science
Psychology ="the study of the soul" ,from Modern Latin psychologia, which leads to a deeper/higher question.)
that has uses in a form of treatment/therapy/training.
RPG set environments in which the players are both the actor and the observing crowd and thus a multiplayer exprience at its core. Ask yourself if an ant or a dog can determine/tell the difference between acting or layers of sophisticated
behaviors. Species like dogs, do tend to bark towards images portrayed by TV as if it whatever is shown would respond. (unfortunately so do some people but that is inevitable since brain scan of even these in coma would show activity when
exposed to the stimulus of TV)
But humans can and so do even its children in the very play pretend games , such as cowboys and Indians, doctor and
nurse, tea party etc...(also mentioned on these forums) are RPG's(in the most basic/infantile sense), but they lack the
addition/advance rule set that heighten them/makes them more appealing or even required due to greater consideration to
the more advance/higher/adult minds, although whether adult or child's imagination is the more advanced/better can be
argued.) The rules also help in making sense of the world and thus keep interest in it.
And what else like dogs or ants would be incapable of imagination(as far as we aware of) of differentiating realities or
participating in a role-playing game all by itself(of its own accord, not trained/instructed/conditioned by higher species
to it)?
Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and
collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the
actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their
choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
from the Encyclopadia Britannica
collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the
actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their
choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
from the Encyclopadia Britannica
Dungeons & Dragons, the first commercially available role-playing game, was published in 1974 by Dave Arneson's and E.
Gary Gygax's TSR, and according to info provided by Zed duke of banville (if i recall/memory serves) Gygax
coined/derived the term Role Playing Game from the exisiting field of Psychology(Psy=soul Logi(logic)=study/science
Psychology ="the study of the soul" ,from Modern Latin psychologia, which leads to a deeper/higher question.)
that has uses in a form of treatment/therapy/training.
RPG set environments in which the players are both the actor and the observing crowd and thus a multiplayer exprience at its core. Ask yourself if an ant or a dog can determine/tell the difference between acting or layers of sophisticated
behaviors. Species like dogs, do tend to bark towards images portrayed by TV as if it whatever is shown would respond. (unfortunately so do some people but that is inevitable since brain scan of even these in coma would show activity when
exposed to the stimulus of TV)
But humans can and so do even its children in the very play pretend games , such as cowboys and Indians, doctor and
nurse, tea party etc...(also mentioned on these forums) are RPG's(in the most basic/infantile sense), but they lack the
addition/advance rule set that heighten them/makes them more appealing or even required due to greater consideration to
the more advance/higher/adult minds, although whether adult or child's imagination is the more advanced/better can be
argued.) The rules also help in making sense of the world and thus keep interest in it.
And what else like dogs or ants would be incapable of imagination(as far as we aware of) of differentiating realities or
participating in a role-playing game all by itself(of its own accord, not trained/instructed/conditioned by higher species
to it)?
a Computer.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Wrong category for defining CRPG:Stats and its commoness
Of what to not factor in(or give less importance to) is stats.
Stats=numbers
Since all electronics games and thus computer/video games are essentially 0's and 1's( and even our DNA can be
digitized/converted) and therefore are STATS based, one cannot use it in categorizing the CRPG genre(as prime/unique aspect) without describing ALL video/computer games(which defeat's the purpose). To an extend even Sport games of the physical domain such as football, tennis, basket ball and so on so forth keep track of score(number) to determine the victor, are defined to a lesser degree by stats but none(that I am aware of) as made such error/mistake in
confusing/describing/categorizing them as CRPG.
example:
Take Pong one of the earliest, most basic/primitive electronic game even perhaps even the 1st video game( although i
prefer the title to Space wars a more advanced game in compression the issue is if the radar screen of the machine on
which the game was played can be defined as video, that is incline came first decline second).
Both the paddle and the ball movement is determent by stats/they are set in stone by the game rules and your will or
muscle's will not alter them/will not make the paddle(which you control) move faster despite how hard you press the
button or how much you can lift in weights.
Is it an Action Game? Yes
Is pong an CRPG? No.
Does it have stats? Yes.
To extend further:
Even games that allow changes in stats are often not described as RPG such as fighting games where different
characters and different moves/hits effect the health bar differently(change in stats and their amount/number is greater
compared to other action games) even First Person Shooter change stats as you pick items(medic kits in F.E.A.R,doom,
Duke3d), and all other action games where you equip/unlock weapons(some character builds in CRPG are defined by
what weapon that can be acquired/exist in game.), improve the character stats as in buying upgrades metal gear revengeance , Devil may Cry 3, the soul's serious(of fFomSoftware) and plenty other games that continue to disapprove stats/character level as RPG element to begin with.
Such mistake's are made because only external/superficial aspect were factored like the existence of in-game menu's
that management/tactic/strategy have them in abundance. If more player played more games, compared more games to each other even from different genres on more parameters, such issues would have avoided/minimized.
The result is that to the common player, the difference between action games and game attribute as RPG is that the
avatar/controlled character can level up (changes in their stats) yet the paragraph's above disapprove it.
Since stats/numbers/levels whether changeable or not, static or dynamic, are not exclusive/unique to CRPG (available to
all genre),neither they can be defined by such. (hacking a game with cheat engine also proves the point.)
But what else that is changeable/dynamic(that is allowed by the rules/mechanics) that can highlight/different/define what is CRPG?
Stats=numbers
Since all electronics games and thus computer/video games are essentially 0's and 1's( and even our DNA can be
digitized/converted) and therefore are STATS based, one cannot use it in categorizing the CRPG genre(as prime/unique aspect) without describing ALL video/computer games(which defeat's the purpose). To an extend even Sport games of the physical domain such as football, tennis, basket ball and so on so forth keep track of score(number) to determine the victor, are defined to a lesser degree by stats but none(that I am aware of) as made such error/mistake in
confusing/describing/categorizing them as CRPG.
example:
Take Pong one of the earliest, most basic/primitive electronic game even perhaps even the 1st video game( although i
prefer the title to Space wars a more advanced game in compression the issue is if the radar screen of the machine on
which the game was played can be defined as video, that is incline came first decline second).
Both the paddle and the ball movement is determent by stats/they are set in stone by the game rules and your will or
muscle's will not alter them/will not make the paddle(which you control) move faster despite how hard you press the
button or how much you can lift in weights.
Is it an Action Game? Yes
Is pong an CRPG? No.
Does it have stats? Yes.
To extend further:
Even games that allow changes in stats are often not described as RPG such as fighting games where different
characters and different moves/hits effect the health bar differently(change in stats and their amount/number is greater
compared to other action games) even First Person Shooter change stats as you pick items(medic kits in F.E.A.R,doom,
Duke3d), and all other action games where you equip/unlock weapons(some character builds in CRPG are defined by
what weapon that can be acquired/exist in game.), improve the character stats as in buying upgrades metal gear revengeance , Devil may Cry 3, the soul's serious(of fFomSoftware) and plenty other games that continue to disapprove stats/character level as RPG element to begin with.
Such mistake's are made because only external/superficial aspect were factored like the existence of in-game menu's
that management/tactic/strategy have them in abundance. If more player played more games, compared more games to each other even from different genres on more parameters, such issues would have avoided/minimized.
The result is that to the common player, the difference between action games and game attribute as RPG is that the
avatar/controlled character can level up (changes in their stats) yet the paragraph's above disapprove it.
Since stats/numbers/levels whether changeable or not, static or dynamic, are not exclusive/unique to CRPG (available to
all genre),neither they can be defined by such. (hacking a game with cheat engine also proves the point.)
But what else that is changeable/dynamic(that is allowed by the rules/mechanics) that can highlight/different/define what is CRPG?
Differentiating CRPG from other genres
A Game is defined by rules, what is allowed or not allowed what you can do or cannot do. (likewise based on these, one
can compare which game is better, offer more, made what no other game previously to it did.)
Take DOOM 1993 for example a game which is accepted/Not argued/categorize as First Person Shooter (an action game).
A game that as essentially/on first glance TWO roles types (and for the sake of the argument lets focus on the
moving/active/reactive characters,ignore the multiplayer aspect of it, or what role an explosive barrel provide/plays)
The two roles are:
The role of PC/ the hero/your role of controlling the avatar in game
The role NPC/ the enemy/ The hostile who damage your avatar until you can no longer interact in the game world,
And as far as memory serves, their is not a single instance in the game that changes it(by default/presented to you as it
is/without modification). You cannot make peace with them, you cannot make deals/trade with them, you cannot make
them your ally, kill or be killed from point A to B until there are no next level left.
Because it is not in the game rules/not coded and thus not allowed. And it might be just even be One role like in pong or
other versus game (the role of combatant) because I am reminded of instances where the AI/NPC attack each other, and in
COOP there is friendly fire so its even free for all/every one for himself type of game. If it is a bad example then swap doom
for other FPS, or even apply the above to side scrolling action games(mario, sonic, megaman/rockman, contra...)
Then take the following games:Rainbow Six Siege, Team Fortress 2, Overwatch (Not games i have played but from what i
a read/viewed.)
Team FPS (Action Games) in which there is greater variety of Roles(The roles in the ROLE playing game, a significant part
of the definition for their is more roles to justify the name/word use of roles in RPG) such as the spy who can take the
appearance of the enemy team member(team fortress) and even special abilities that highlight them compared/contrast to
more simple earlier games(pong, tetris, pacmen, doom, mario, one or two roles types)
But such variation is still subsequent to the purpose of the team and their only purpose is defeat the other team. you
cannot make some of the player to defect to your team from the game's viewpoint (roles/mechanics) or leave the team
without exiting the game.
You could take the C in CRPG which stands for Computer and replace it with Combat and it would be not worse for it. Than applie to team based competitive FPS and it would remain accurate. Thus combat is not a defining feature of
RPG and CRPG)
In contrast, RPG's are capable of greater variety of roles that fulfill different task/goals/ purposes.
such as shop keepers(the but/sell of weapons or armor), guards/defender ,these that you can talk to or cant, have more to
say over less, integral to the plot and these that not, animals, monsters etc. A larger illustration of human nature/society
but even that alone is not enough.
Which finally leads to the CRPG parameter I wished to describe. Which for the lack of words and until a better name is
found be referred as:
can compare which game is better, offer more, made what no other game previously to it did.)
Take DOOM 1993 for example a game which is accepted/Not argued/categorize as First Person Shooter (an action game).
A game that as essentially/on first glance TWO roles types (and for the sake of the argument lets focus on the
moving/active/reactive characters,ignore the multiplayer aspect of it, or what role an explosive barrel provide/plays)
The two roles are:
The role of PC/ the hero/your role of controlling the avatar in game
The role NPC/ the enemy/ The hostile who damage your avatar until you can no longer interact in the game world,
And as far as memory serves, their is not a single instance in the game that changes it(by default/presented to you as it
is/without modification). You cannot make peace with them, you cannot make deals/trade with them, you cannot make
them your ally, kill or be killed from point A to B until there are no next level left.
Because it is not in the game rules/not coded and thus not allowed. And it might be just even be One role like in pong or
other versus game (the role of combatant) because I am reminded of instances where the AI/NPC attack each other, and in
COOP there is friendly fire so its even free for all/every one for himself type of game. If it is a bad example then swap doom
for other FPS, or even apply the above to side scrolling action games(mario, sonic, megaman/rockman, contra...)
Then take the following games:Rainbow Six Siege, Team Fortress 2, Overwatch (Not games i have played but from what i
a read/viewed.)
Team FPS (Action Games) in which there is greater variety of Roles(The roles in the ROLE playing game, a significant part
of the definition for their is more roles to justify the name/word use of roles in RPG) such as the spy who can take the
appearance of the enemy team member(team fortress) and even special abilities that highlight them compared/contrast to
more simple earlier games(pong, tetris, pacmen, doom, mario, one or two roles types)
But such variation is still subsequent to the purpose of the team and their only purpose is defeat the other team. you
cannot make some of the player to defect to your team from the game's viewpoint (roles/mechanics) or leave the team
without exiting the game.
You could take the C in CRPG which stands for Computer and replace it with Combat and it would be not worse for it. Than applie to team based competitive FPS and it would remain accurate. Thus combat is not a defining feature of
RPG and CRPG)
In contrast, RPG's are capable of greater variety of roles that fulfill different task/goals/ purposes.
such as shop keepers(the but/sell of weapons or armor), guards/defender ,these that you can talk to or cant, have more to
say over less, integral to the plot and these that not, animals, monsters etc. A larger illustration of human nature/society
but even that alone is not enough.
Which finally leads to the CRPG parameter I wished to describe. Which for the lack of words and until a better name is
found be referred as:
Defining Aspects, the parameter Overlooked: Dynamic Roles and Behaviors
Dynamic
Dynamics behaviors and/or Dynamic Roles -
the rules/mechanics of the game that portray/depict/allow changes in the "role's" such as from peasant to king, thief to
shopkeeper, lawmaker to lawbreaker, paladin to fallen paladin, zero to hero, evil doer to good doer, member of that
faction and the next,loyal to traitor, rich to poor, poor to rich, worshiper to worshiped, ugly to beauty/handsome, from one
creature to another creature, mortal to immortal at cetra at cetra... and vise versa. (except men/male to woman/female or
straight to faggot. We can scrap/ignore them for they are too wicked/repulsive for the majority that maintain civilization,men)
and the behavior ranges from friend or foe, good to evil ,have goals/principles or not, so on an so forth and vise versa.
In other words their is greater over lesser variety of roles (even roles within roles) and that they are
dynamic/interchangeable and the interaction between them.
dynamic
adj.
Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion.
adj.
Of or relating to the study of dynamics.
from The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
Dynamic definition is - marked by usually continuous and productive activity or change.
www.merriam-webster.com
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The social, intellectual, or moral forces that produce activity and change in a given sphere.
The dynamics of international trade have influenced our business decisions on this matter.
www.yourdictionary
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
behavior
n.
The way a living creature behaves or acts.
n.
The way a device or system operates.
from Wiktionary
adj.
Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion.
adj.
Of or relating to the study of dynamics.
from The American HeritageR Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
Dynamic definition is - marked by usually continuous and productive activity or change.
www.merriam-webster.com
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The social, intellectual, or moral forces that produce activity and change in a given sphere.
The dynamics of international trade have influenced our business decisions on this matter.
www.yourdictionary
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
behavior
n.
The way a living creature behaves or acts.
n.
The way a device or system operates.
from Wiktionary
Dynamics behaviors and/or Dynamic Roles -
the rules/mechanics of the game that portray/depict/allow changes in the "role's" such as from peasant to king, thief to
shopkeeper, lawmaker to lawbreaker, paladin to fallen paladin, zero to hero, evil doer to good doer, member of that
faction and the next,loyal to traitor, rich to poor, poor to rich, worshiper to worshiped, ugly to beauty/handsome, from one
creature to another creature, mortal to immortal at cetra at cetra... and vise versa. (except men/male to woman/female or
straight to faggot. We can scrap/ignore them for they are too wicked/repulsive for the majority that maintain civilization,men)
and the behavior ranges from friend or foe, good to evil ,have goals/principles or not, so on an so forth and vise versa.
In other words their is greater over lesser variety of roles (even roles within roles) and that they are
dynamic/interchangeable and the interaction between them.
Application in context of known/renowned CRPG
Take the above parameters and use it to determine which is a CRPG, how greater or lesser it is compare to other and
compared that to the whole spectrum of what is RPG(at least based on table top experience). You should find that many
of the top crpg mention on the codex would fit, and would manage to summarize a lot of topics. especially DnD based for
in them the greatest variety was made possible.
examples:
Fallout 1997 The face of Gizmo change from pleasing(wide smile) to displeasing(angry face) due to your actions.
facial change and behavioral change(gizmo turning hostile/activates battle and shoots your character/allies)
Baldurs gate have initiated dialog banter that unless resolved will cause the two members of opposite alignment to attack
each other. not hostile to you, not hostile to each other until dialog script>than hostile between the two of them (change in
behaviour)
Temple of Elemental evil
recruited companions can betray your party. (they had different agenda so also hiding a behavior.) if i recall correctly you
can permanently recruit npc with dominate spell(based on what i read here) compare to other games in which the effect is
temporary.
even on the transformation changing human into a dog with a curse(dynamic of species/race) in pathfinder kingmaker
preventing item use (whether it disables their comments during dialog or their post in the council i have not tested.)
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (2001) shrinking yourself will change dialog reaction from npc's, turning
yourself to sheep will evoke comment from party members
And that would only cover the micro scale (as in between characters) of the parameter.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
On macro scale it would be dynamic interaction with the settings of the world portrayed (faction, laws of physics, the
nation, the culture or even the effects on the universe of setting such as adding a day in their week schedule)
Is there are even video games let alone CRPG that allow such degree of influence? describing such factor is perhaps beyond me(with my current knowledge)
The closest example that comes to mind/aware of are:
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (2001) on the Macro scale there is the technological or megical apptitude
that changes the attitude of specific shopkeeper preventing you from buying.
Vampire: The Masquerade ? Bloodlines(2004) -exposing vampire existence loses masquerade points doing quest earn
masquerade points. Violating the masquerade five times draws the ire of vampire hunters and loses the game.
Planescape: Torment (1999)- one of the dialog option that allows defeating the "boss" by learning the nature/lore of the
setting what holds the planescapes together.
compared that to the whole spectrum of what is RPG(at least based on table top experience). You should find that many
of the top crpg mention on the codex would fit, and would manage to summarize a lot of topics. especially DnD based for
in them the greatest variety was made possible.
examples:
Fallout 1997 The face of Gizmo change from pleasing(wide smile) to displeasing(angry face) due to your actions.
facial change and behavioral change(gizmo turning hostile/activates battle and shoots your character/allies)
Baldurs gate have initiated dialog banter that unless resolved will cause the two members of opposite alignment to attack
each other. not hostile to you, not hostile to each other until dialog script>than hostile between the two of them (change in
behaviour)
Temple of Elemental evil
recruited companions can betray your party. (they had different agenda so also hiding a behavior.) if i recall correctly you
can permanently recruit npc with dominate spell(based on what i read here) compare to other games in which the effect is
temporary.
even on the transformation changing human into a dog with a curse(dynamic of species/race) in pathfinder kingmaker
preventing item use (whether it disables their comments during dialog or their post in the council i have not tested.)
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (2001) shrinking yourself will change dialog reaction from npc's, turning
yourself to sheep will evoke comment from party members
And that would only cover the micro scale (as in between characters) of the parameter.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
On macro scale it would be dynamic interaction with the settings of the world portrayed (faction, laws of physics, the
nation, the culture or even the effects on the universe of setting such as adding a day in their week schedule)
Is there are even video games let alone CRPG that allow such degree of influence? describing such factor is perhaps beyond me(with my current knowledge)
The closest example that comes to mind/aware of are:
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (2001) on the Macro scale there is the technological or megical apptitude
that changes the attitude of specific shopkeeper preventing you from buying.
Vampire: The Masquerade ? Bloodlines(2004) -exposing vampire existence loses masquerade points doing quest earn
masquerade points. Violating the masquerade five times draws the ire of vampire hunters and loses the game.
Planescape: Torment (1999)- one of the dialog option that allows defeating the "boss" by learning the nature/lore of the
setting what holds the planescapes together.
What most CRPG are:
Either they are Massively Multi Player RPGs for they fulfill the most impotent aspect the human based interaction for tell
me if you can train apes into acting/imitating/ role playing beings that are above their nature (higher in capabilities)
which also involves advance use of language/dialogs and im only aware of one gorilla that they manage to teach sign
language that would describe emotion or even lie. with chimpanzee the result aside the requesting of food deemed a
failure. Role playing perhaps require a transcending nature (what is a soul).
but their main issue is the role majority of players are limited to for majority of the time spend(immortal farmer) compared
to the role of "hero" of CRPG (greater degree of influence on the game world even determines passage of time
itself).
Or they are tactical games. Tactics Definition of Tactics
If you would count/calculate/do the math the amout of time/energy/action spend managing the party/PC/inventroy or
exploring (factors of tactic/strategy domain) and compare/vesus the time/energy/action spend engaging in factors of RPG
domain(dialog, changing behaviors, altering story in more degrees/variation then win/lose) that totality of the game as
Role Playing Game could amount from 10% to 2% or even less of the total of one hundred percent (92% to 98% not RPG).
So Ultimately none of the games can be consider an RPG even the top ones such as Fallout (1997), Planescape: Torment
(1999), deus ex(2000), arcanum(2001) for they would need to consist of at least 51% of the play-through (aside mmorpg's
where the chat allows such possibility and than there is disco Elysium which i wonder about.)
So why bother even in continuing the use/categorizing or seeking such form of games? or even use what i just provided?
For the relativity of it to other games, for they gave a greater illusion(compare to other genres), for they made the
computer imitate the spark of greater being(compare to other animals on this plane of existence). for even ants are
capable of strategy(and imagine how microscopic the ant brain is.) Even if according to a brain scan there would be a
sparks/activity in areas categorizing humans that only for a millisecond ,IT existed/happened and there lays the miracle/ the genius/ the awesome.
If that surprises you, take spices such as salt for example.
Compare the percentage of mass/weight/size of an actual meal which can amount in the hundreds (if not more depending
on the person and its needs/goals/purpose) and then compare it to a pinch of salt, how many grams would that be and yet
when combined, the effect on taste/appetite is tremendous/significant/impactful. (also view the reaction in "First contact
with the tribe Toulambi (by Miri) - Part 3-4" a documentary presented in this forum depicting a 4th world tribe that never
seen a white men and thus both rice and salt.)
And lets extend such example further.
Take a grain of rice, imagine it shrinking it down a thousand times and it become the size of a human skin cell(cellular
level). Shrink it thousand times more and you have the nano scale( the greek word dwarf , 1 of billion , the atomic level)
add around 60 silver micro-particles into a bottle of fresh milk and its shelf life increase from 7 to 15 days. based on "More
Dangerous than GMO's! - BioEngineered NanoFoods - but Shhh It's a Secret!"
me if you can train apes into acting/imitating/ role playing beings that are above their nature (higher in capabilities)
which also involves advance use of language/dialogs and im only aware of one gorilla that they manage to teach sign
language that would describe emotion or even lie. with chimpanzee the result aside the requesting of food deemed a
failure. Role playing perhaps require a transcending nature (what is a soul).
but their main issue is the role majority of players are limited to for majority of the time spend(immortal farmer) compared
to the role of "hero" of CRPG (greater degree of influence on the game world even determines passage of time
itself).
Or they are tactical games. Tactics Definition of Tactics
by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tactics
Tactics definition is - the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat.
Tactics - definition of tactics by The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/tactics
Define tactics. tactics synonyms, tactics pronunciation, tactics translation, English dictionary definition of tactics. n. 1. a.
The study of the most effective ways of securing objectives set by strategy
1620s, "science of arranging military forces for combat," from Modern Latin tactica (17c.), from Greek taktike techne "art
of arrangement," noun use of fem. of taktikos "of or pertaining to arrangement," especially "tactics in war," adjective to
taxis "arrangement, an arranging, the order or disposition of an army, battle array; order, regularity," verbal noun of
tassein "arrange," from PIE root *tag- "to touch, handle."etymonline.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tactics
Tactics definition is - the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat.
Tactics - definition of tactics by The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/tactics
Define tactics. tactics synonyms, tactics pronunciation, tactics translation, English dictionary definition of tactics. n. 1. a.
The study of the most effective ways of securing objectives set by strategy
1620s, "science of arranging military forces for combat," from Modern Latin tactica (17c.), from Greek taktike techne "art
of arrangement," noun use of fem. of taktikos "of or pertaining to arrangement," especially "tactics in war," adjective to
taxis "arrangement, an arranging, the order or disposition of an army, battle array; order, regularity," verbal noun of
tassein "arrange," from PIE root *tag- "to touch, handle."etymonline.com
If you would count/calculate/do the math the amout of time/energy/action spend managing the party/PC/inventroy or
exploring (factors of tactic/strategy domain) and compare/vesus the time/energy/action spend engaging in factors of RPG
domain(dialog, changing behaviors, altering story in more degrees/variation then win/lose) that totality of the game as
Role Playing Game could amount from 10% to 2% or even less of the total of one hundred percent (92% to 98% not RPG).
So Ultimately none of the games can be consider an RPG even the top ones such as Fallout (1997), Planescape: Torment
(1999), deus ex(2000), arcanum(2001) for they would need to consist of at least 51% of the play-through (aside mmorpg's
where the chat allows such possibility and than there is disco Elysium which i wonder about.)
So why bother even in continuing the use/categorizing or seeking such form of games? or even use what i just provided?
For the relativity of it to other games, for they gave a greater illusion(compare to other genres), for they made the
computer imitate the spark of greater being(compare to other animals on this plane of existence). for even ants are
capable of strategy(and imagine how microscopic the ant brain is.) Even if according to a brain scan there would be a
sparks/activity in areas categorizing humans that only for a millisecond ,IT existed/happened and there lays the miracle/ the genius/ the awesome.
If that surprises you, take spices such as salt for example.
Compare the percentage of mass/weight/size of an actual meal which can amount in the hundreds (if not more depending
on the person and its needs/goals/purpose) and then compare it to a pinch of salt, how many grams would that be and yet
when combined, the effect on taste/appetite is tremendous/significant/impactful. (also view the reaction in "First contact
with the tribe Toulambi (by Miri) - Part 3-4" a documentary presented in this forum depicting a 4th world tribe that never
seen a white men and thus both rice and salt.)
And lets extend such example further.
Take a grain of rice, imagine it shrinking it down a thousand times and it become the size of a human skin cell(cellular
level). Shrink it thousand times more and you have the nano scale( the greek word dwarf , 1 of billion , the atomic level)
add around 60 silver micro-particles into a bottle of fresh milk and its shelf life increase from 7 to 15 days. based on "More
Dangerous than GMO's! - BioEngineered NanoFoods - but Shhh It's a Secret!"
To Summarize/Compress/Refine
-Multiplayer and thus human player(and their like)
-Not factoring/using Stats(for all electronic games are based on stats, numbers 0's and 1' even physical sport game such
as Football (the counting of score/goals).
-The multitude/Variety of roles from the pc and the npc, the warrior, the shopkeeper, the thief the healer, the farmer, the
lower animals and higher beings ect.
-The dynamics betwen the roles, that they are interchangeable, their behavior from friend or foe, good to evil and vise
versa.
-The multitude/Vareiety of action/interactions/reaction betwen the above two(roles and behaviours) on micro(characters,
objects) and macro(factions,settings, world.)
Remember/Know/Beware that just as we don't live in a vacuum, just as we move on at least two legs, that at least three points are required for comparing (for how else we would measure in an example such as which of two equal/same sized object in outer-space would be higher or how far they are apart without a 3rd point of reference. So is it that one should not define things based on one factor (despite what most poster do based on their one liner/short posts).
By comparing we measure, by comparing we factor. Encompass/consider/count as much factors/parameter possible/conceivable and one can define what is RPG and what makes it good and bad on the widest/deepest scale possible. Which is the most significant among them can be measured an answered.
Last edited:
