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RPG Codex Diplomacy

GrafvonMoltke

Shoutbox Purity League
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 2, 2016
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of the Great Steppe
My favourite part was when Germany decided to go on holiday in Spain. Una sangria, por favor!


My selection of Greatest Hits from the shoutbox/public press:



(After England took Brest from France while losing Belgium to Germany and Sweden to Russia)



(After France seemed to be dead, although he ended up surviving for two more years)



(After I stabbed Italy)



Although GrafvonMoltke didn't have a blessed game as France, he entertained us all. Better luck next time! "If you're not butthurt, you should be" sounds like a pretty good tagline for the whole game of Diplomacy, anyway.

Christ, I’m funny.

So when’s the next game?
 

Catacombs

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
5,940
I'll sit this one out. wwsd, you did a public service posting those detailed updates. I'd definitely read those for the next game.
 

wwsd

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
7,662
OK, so a recap from my point of view. I had a lot of fun in this game even besides the final result.

In Spring '01 I decided to open with the 'Hedgehog', i.e. aggressively defending the borders with Russia and Italy while grabbing Serbia as the first build. I wasn't sure how to estimate Italy or his promise that Venice would hold. In retrospect I could have grown quicker by simply moving the fleet to Albania and taking Greece as well, as Italy was apparently determined to hold Venice but without attacking me. I wasn't sure of this, so I spent a lot of time in the early game defending Trieste instead of using the units elsewhere. I built a good working relationship with Germany, which is also conventional wisdom as Austria. I quickly assumed Germany was my old friend and adversary Strange Fellow from the last game, so I figured at least there would be no lack of communication, no matter what else.

I was surprised to see my move to Galicia succeed. I could have gone for Warsaw, but assumed Russia would defend it. In the event, he had an NMR (no moves received) in the fall, so another missed chance for me to grow quickly (and get so scary that others would probably team up to stop me!). Instead I grabbed Rumania, and then offered it as a reward to both Turkey and Russia for allying me. In the end I decided not to let Turkey grow beyond 2 builds, so I defended my gains, moved the fleet to Albania, got help from Italy and Russia, and took Greece. Always a rough deal for the Sultan when everyone's teaming up against you and there's nothing you can do about it. Meanwhile Italy and Germany were advancing against France.

Germany to my knowledge had a good relationship with England (I only ever got one message from the English), which hit a snag when England took both Belgium and Sweden in the same turn and built fleets. This seemed to destroy Germany's chance to make a breakout, despite his success against France, taking Spain, etc. I'm not sure what happened afterwards, but in 1903 England took Brest while losing Belgium and Sweden, giving Germany the opportunity to retake the initiative while causing France to break out into hilarious but quite righteous butthurt. Yeah I probably would have had some choice words to say about that as well if I were France. Germany also turned the tide by sending a roving army eastwards that was able to take 2 out of 4 Russian home centres, which is not something you see every day. Meanwhile I was happy that I had taken all the Balkan provinces without pissing anyone off except Turkey, but I was a little bit worried about Germany blobbing all the way from Spain to Moscow.

In 1904 I decided to move a fleet to the Ionian when Italy was fully committed against Turkey, and when no protest came, I decided to grab Naples and send more units against Italy. The turn after that I decided to grab Piedmont first to have the maximum amount of units against Italy, and with a fabulously optimistic view towards Marseilles, but Italy bounced me out and my attack slowed down. But the next turn Rome, Marseilles and Venice all fell, and I was back on track. At this point I thought it would be worth it to try some "Janissary" play and offered Italy survival in exchange for disbanding his Eastern Med fleets and sending everything at Iberia, Marseilles, and the western approaches to the Med. Italy granted this, and so it was time to direct my attention to my most long-term ally this game, Germany.

The rest is pretty much recent history. I agree that I probably resumed my attack on Italy one turn too late, as Tunis was open to me at any time, but I wanted to keep him on board for a little while. I also asked France to attack towards Burgundy as his last move, as I assumed Germany would be defending Munich with as many units as possible. France fired off the desired parting shot, but in the event Germany didn't defend Munich, so I was able to get in. When I took Moscow and Tunis in 1907, I reached 17 centres and victory was near, helped by an Italian NMR in spring 1908. Italy did not team up with Germany for the anti-solo-win coalition until the final turn when it was already too late, but he did survive to see my win.

I was surprised to see that France hated Germany and Italy wasn't really prepared to go to bat for him either. From the previous game I would have expected Strange Fellow to wrap people around his finger, but this time he was pretty much on his own against me until the last turn.

Most other players I think were a bit newer to the game or were not always able to send in orders, but hopefully the learning experience was fun, and I hope some of you guys will be back for a future game. Maybe the points above will give some idea of the massive amount of strategic considerations involved in this game.

So did you just decide super early to become Austria's junior partner and stick with it? I don't think you ever really tried to stab?

I tried to stay on friendly terms with both Germany and Austria; I was going to side with whichever one became more powerful in order to just try to survive.
My goal was to hold Italy and Iberia for the duration of the game, and I didn't quite make it (*AHEM* AUSTRIA! :argh:) but I can't complain.
I didn't realize that back stabbing was such a prominent feature of the game (silly, in retrospect). Perhaps I will have to err more on the offensive next time.

Congrats for playing anyway! Playing for the first time is always difficult, even if you're some galaxy brain who somehow knows all the rules and has read everything on opening strategy. I know this from when I played my first game many years ago (I mentioned this, about playing Turkey and getting stuck). And Italy can be a difficult country to play because everyone usually just wants you to leave them and their buddies alone, although they generally won't attack you either, so your chances of survival are good. Usually Germany and Austria will stick together, in which case Germany/Austria/Italy can be a formidable Triple Alliance, but Italy will usually not be able to profit hugely from this.

If Germany and Austria play it this way, they will usually be happy to send Italy off on long-shot expeditions against France or Turkey but without succeeding too well. Austria will constantly be looking for opportunities to build fleets in Trieste and get over its initial naval disadvantage vis-a-vis Italy and Turkey. Otherwise there is no path to victory for him no matter how well he does on land, and he will have to settle for a draw. So for you the time to get pissed off with me would have been not when I moved into Naples, but the turn before that when I moved into the Ionian Sea. And the time to get suspicious would have been when I built two fleets.

Italy can do well in alliance with Austria, but must be vigilant for the stab as I mentioned. Otherwise Italy can do well by allying with Russia and dismantling Austria together, but that probably wasn't going to happen in this game, as Russia missed a turn in fall 1901 and didn't get a single build until 1903. So I imagine it would have been hard to organise anything with Russia in this game.

I hope you will play again next time, but then I would recommend you absolutely make sure to always send in orders. I know it's just a game and anyone can have a good reason to miss a turn, but this always distorts the game or even the final result. Even if you're not sure of your orders yet or you want to communicate with some other players before you make a decision, it's best to enter some orders so you're at least not doing nothing.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,031
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah, I kept pestering Italy to defend himself, even going so far as to spell out his moves for him, but he kept retreating instead. :argh:
Obviously it all worked out for him in the end in terms of what he wanted to achieve, so I guess he made the right choice. I was particularly annoyed when he relinquished Tunis, because I thought I'd made a deal with him where I'd take all but one of his centres off his hands at an opportune moment, in order to snatch the solo victory out of Austria's clutches. He agreed, and I figured he meant it, since Austria was in his words being literally gay. But then the numbers didn't add up after he dropped himself down to three centres, so I would have had to stab him eventually, which I'm sure he noticed. In the end we never made it that far, and so AdvancedHero and I got to remain great friends throughout the proceedings :hug:

But yeah, the lesson to be learnt for AH is probably that you won't get very far in this game without stabbing a few backs. As for me, I learnt that taking silly risks isn't a viable long-term strategy against someone who knows what he's doing. Who knew?
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Look, a stabby Italy is a healthy, stronk Italy, is all I'm saying, with no personal bias or previous history whatsoever, no sir
 

wwsd

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
7,662
Yeah, I kept pestering Italy to defend himself, even going so far as to spell out his moves for him, but he kept retreating instead. :argh:
Obviously it all worked out for him in the end in terms of what he wanted to achieve, so I guess he made the right choice. I was particularly annoyed when he relinquished Tunis, because I thought I'd made a deal with him where I'd take all but one of his centres off his hands at an opportune moment, in order to snatch the solo victory out of Austria's clutches. He agreed, and I figured he meant it, since Austria was in his words being literally gay. But then the numbers didn't add up after he dropped himself down to three centres, so I would have had to stab him eventually, which I'm sure he noticed. In the end we never made it that far, and so AdvancedHero and I got to remain great friends throughout the proceedings :hug:

But yeah, the lesson to be learnt for AH is probably that you won't get very far in this game without stabbing a few backs. As for me, I learnt that taking silly risks isn't a viable long-term strategy against someone who knows what he's doing. Who knew?

I must admit I quite like playing Austria when many people don't. I had them once before and I did pretty well too, but that was a long time ago. I used to have this thing on PlayDip where I took on more games than I could chew only to end up missing moves, ruining my ranking, and then I lost access to the university email that I used to log in with, so now I have this account just for the Codex games. And especially now with corona and remote working, it's perfectly feasible for me to only play one game and really focus on it.

Anyway, Austria is interesting in that if it survives the early stage, it can become very strong. The G/A/I can be a powerful alliance in the early to mid-game. Then the stabs can start coming hard and fast, with Turkey, Russia and Italy all heading for the exit in relatively quick succession. The main challenge in doing this is naval parity. After that, it becomes a matter of surging across the neutral zones before Germany is ready for it.

In the early stages of this game, I felt I was growing too slowly, but in fact it all worked out pretty well. The advantage of a more defensive early start is that you don't scare people or piss them off too quickly. By late 1902 I only had Turkey who might not be happy with my moves, but then again Austria and Turkey are never expected to be strong allies. By 1903 I had the entire Balkan without making any dangerous enemies. I was all sympathy towards France and Russia for their early mishaps and gave them some encouragement and advice on how to recover, and I think this influenced some moves like Russia continually cutting any support in the Black Sea long after he was in the position to demand what I had offered him (Rumania).

Without being too direct about it, I also kept sowing FUD about Germany potentially growing out of control, which seemed more likely to happen if one looked purely at the colours on the map and the number of supply centres controlled. A misguided thing people often do, when instead they should be looking at what's happening in strategic positions like the Ionian, Tyrolia, North Sea, etc. to see who is seizing all these positions.

I don't know if any "This guy is getting too strong/he's obviously up to something more than just a strong draw" messages regarding me were going around before the endgame, but with a bit of a sympathy factor (or at least not active antipathy) it will take a lot of time and determination before everyone is on the same page believing that one player is dangerous and must be stopped when he is not yet clearly pulling ahead.

Look, a stabby Italy is a healthy, stronk Italy, is all I'm saying, with no personal bias or previous history whatsoever, no sir

I have yet to play Italy, but would find it an interesting challenge. I once read an interesting article about Chainsaw Diplomacy where the guy suggests at the end that Italy could benefit by basically making aggressive moves first, and then demanding concessions in exchange for not attacking further. It would be pretty hair-raising to say the least. Another suggestion I've seen is for Italy to make an early start with a roving "mercenary" unit: order Venice to Tyrolia, then onwards to Bohemia, Galicia/Silesia, Ukraine/Prussia, etc. and have a finger in the pie in areas Italy usually doesn't play a role early on. Both sound like interesting experiments, although just as likely to just piss off everyone else and provoking them to take you down earlier.
 
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Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
So it really was too optimistic of me to expect a game so soon after this one ended, wasn't it?
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
Look, a stabby Italy is a healthy, stronk Italy, is all I'm saying, with no personal bias or previous history whatsoever, no sir

I have yet to play Italy, but would find it an interesting challenge. I once read an interesting article about Chainsaw Diplomacy where the guy suggests at the end that Italy could benefit by basically making aggressive moves first, and then demanding concessions in exchange for not attacking further. It would be pretty hair-raising to say the least. Another suggestion I've seen is for Italy to make an early start with a roving "mercenary" unit: order Venice to Tyrolia, then onwards to Bohemia, Galicia/Silesia, Ukraine/Prussia, etc. and have a finger in the pie in areas Italy usually doesn't play a role early on. Both sound like interesting experiments, although just as likely to just piss off everyone else and provoking them to take you down earlier.

I played Italy a LOT (I tend to let people choose their country in descending order of experience, so I often end up with a choice between Turkey and Italy, and boy I don't want Turkey), and while I did not know about the full "raider" option, VEN-ALP (and more specifically VEN-ALP, ROM-TUS and either NAP-TYR or NAP-ION ; usually not doing ROM-VEN because that's immediate war with Austria) is my favorite opening move as suddenly your status changes from "that guy bottled up South of Switzerland that only France and Austria really need to talk to" to "that guy that can make or break Germany, Austria and due to this France and Russia".

Of course, if Austria did TRI-VEN and VIE-TRI you are toast, but that's a rare move (if he wants to betray you, he is more likely to do TRI-VEN VIE-ALP because of course the TRI-VEN move is likely to bounce) and I got lucky to never be on that receiving end.

Never knew about the Italian "chainsaw" opening. Interesting to know, but you need a certain character to pull it off, I don't think I could.


I never played as UK though, and I think played Russia only once (and lost).
 
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grimace

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
1,985
2022-02-27_18-422ykgc.png



Catacombs how do we set the settings?

What were the settings for the first game we played?
 

wwsd

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
7,662
Made a game:

202395. RPG Codex 2022 special military operation
Password: whatisanrpg

Same rules and deadlines as in grimace's screenshot above, except I instituted 1st turn NMR protection, i.e. the game will restart if someone fails to submit orders on the 1st turn.

I tagged a bunch of people above who are more than 7, but of course anyone who is interested is welcome to join. Usually it seems plenty of people are interested, but it's hard to get 7 people to take notice at the same time. So I hope enough people will join.
 

wwsd

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
7,662
I can't start playing before middle of next week;
If the game hasn't started by then give me a ping

baud There is plenty room left. In fact if people don't start joining, it may be better to wait for some other time when the stars align.
 

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