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World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

Mexi

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
6,811
The dude was in charge of the narrative. Companies now have a hat on a hat in terms of jobs, but I would think that means he was in charge of saying fuck off to the SJWs trying to put stupid shit into the narrative. It sounds like he failed in managing the stupid fucks trying to make everything woke and extending the development time. Mitsoda's company sucks ass. I'm glad they got the rug pulled out. I just hope the next company does a better job. Also, how the fuck does the Andromeda writer or lead, whatever the fuck that lady is, get jobs!? It's outrageous that that big of a fuck up is encouraged to join a team. For that alone, I would've fired Mitsoda's company.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,754
Really strange, there are only three things that could have lead Paradox to pull the plug: a) They were trying to make a new engine from scratch and failed hard, having to start over because what they had was too disfunctional and Paradox lost confidence, b) Scope creep, what would be strange because pretty much all developers pass through scope creep, usually this is solved by cutting down the game and pulling the plug this way seems a too radical decision, c) Paradox lost confidence on the management of the company, they were unwilling, incapable to manage the game or maybe even syphoning resources from Paradox as they were strangely hiring people for another project.

I think a) is out of the question as the game was using the Unreal 4 engine. Many Glassdoor reviews point to c), but I can imagine b) too. Remember that there were supposed to be three Thinblood traversal disciplines from which you could choose one: Telekinesis, Fog and Bats. Now additional to that in Bloodlines you usually could traverse many maps using dialogues, sneaking, fighting, hacking or lockpicking alternatives. How should it be possible to add all these options to all maps to make any possible character build work? I think a first hint to that this was a problem came when they suddenly announced that all players would be able to use all new three traversal disciplines. Which would make the Thinblood player completely overpowered, but on the other hand it would make creating working maps a lot easier...
 

PlacidDragon

Educated
Joined
Dec 23, 2002
Messages
43
I think a) is out of the question as the game was using the Unreal 4 engine. Many Glassdoor reviews point to c), but I can imagine b) too. Remember that there were supposed to be three Thinblood traversal disciplines from which you could choose one: Telekinesis, Fog and Bats. Now additional to that in Bloodlines you usually could traverse many maps using dialogues, sneaking, fighting, hacking or lockpicking alternatives. How should it be possible to add all these options to all maps to make any possible character build work? I think a first hint to that this was a problem came when they suddenly announced that all players would be able to use all new three traversal disciplines. Which would make the Thinblood player completely overpowered, but on the other hand it would make creating working maps a lot easier...
To add a bit to that.

a) Hardsuit (Zombie Studios) has exclusively (as far as i've been able to determine) used UE since 2001, there was never any doubt what the game was going to use :)
b) This is the biggest (by an order of magnitude) game Hardsuit has ever attempted, and my guess is that they simply lost the thread at some point... it grew too large and unmanageable for them.
c) After a while, Paradox certainly took steps to get greater control of things, yes (bigger stake in the company, etc). I am guessing this was to "straighten the ship" though, not to undermine it in any way. With Paradox owning the WoD IP, this was to be a flagship title in a new franchise of games. My guess is that Paradox still sees Bloodlines 2 that way.
 

Enkidu

Novice
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
33
To add a bit to that.

a) Hardsuit (Zombie Studios) has exclusively (as far as i've been able to determine) used UE since 2001, there was never any doubt what the game was going to use :)
b) This is the biggest (by an order of magnitude) game Hardsuit has ever attempted, and my guess is that they simply lost the thread at some point... it grew too large and unmanageable for them.
c) After a while, Paradox certainly took steps to get greater control of things, yes (bigger stake in the company, etc). I am guessing this was to "straighten the ship" though, not to undermine it in any way. With Paradox owning the WoD IP, this was to be a flagship title in a new franchise of games. My guess is that Paradox still sees Bloodlines 2 that way.
Yeah they are somehow still optimistic about Bloodlines 2. Shame that the reason they bought the whole license is because they are a bunch of faggot larpers instead of people with a plan.
The whole bringing back Bloodlines and Masquerade is a show of delusion. They are trying to make new games with around 30 years of metaplot and retcons instead of just using Requiem which by design can be whatever you want, you cut and choose what works for your setting.
Even this Bloodlines 2 was just a nostalgia fact check, bringing back characters of the first game instead of creating new ones.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
I think a) is out of the question as the game was using the Unreal 4 engine. Many Glassdoor reviews point to c), but I can imagine b) too. Remember that there were supposed to be three Thinblood traversal disciplines from which you could choose one: Telekinesis, Fog and Bats. Now additional to that in Bloodlines you usually could traverse many maps using dialogues, sneaking, fighting, hacking or lockpicking alternatives. How should it be possible to add all these options to all maps to make any possible character build work? I think a first hint to that this was a problem came when they suddenly announced that all players would be able to use all new three traversal disciplines. Which would make the Thinblood player completely overpowered, but on the other hand it would make creating working maps a lot easier...
To add a bit to that.

a) Hardsuit (Zombie Studios) has exclusively (as far as i've been able to determine) used UE since 2001, there was never any doubt what the game was going to use :)
b) This is the biggest (by an order of magnitude) game Hardsuit has ever attempted, and my guess is that they simply lost the thread at some point... it grew too large and unmanageable for them.
c) After a while, Paradox certainly took steps to get greater control of things, yes (bigger stake in the company, etc). I am guessing this was to "straighten the ship" though, not to undermine it in any way. With Paradox owning the WoD IP, this was to be a flagship title in a new franchise of games. My guess is that Paradox still sees Bloodlines 2 that way.
Still, there must had been some serious problems beyond the usual scope creep, something happened that made Paradox lose confidence on them. Is the problem scope creep? Cut the game until it becomes a manageable project, this is what happened with the original Bloodlines and they had fucking Activision as publisher and they arent known to be understanding kind of people.
 

Caim

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
15,460
Location
Dutchland
My best hunch at the moment is Splash Damage:
What about Bioware? They were under hardcore reform and revision. Bioware's Bloodlines shall win even most based hearts of Delete-terrius and Jenkis-khan.
"How was I supposed to know that he was with the Inquisition? And it's not like the attack hurt you, you killed all those cops!"
1. "Oh you. Don't do it again, you rascal." (Humanity increase)
2. "The Traditions are clear about this." *kill him*
3. "I will rip off your head, jam a straw into the stump and turn you into a human Caprisun!" *proceed do so* (Humanity decrease)
 

PlacidDragon

Educated
Joined
Dec 23, 2002
Messages
43
Still, there must had been some serious problems beyond the usual scope creep, something happened that made Paradox lose confidence on them. Is the problem scope creep? Cut the game until it becomes a manageable project, this is what happened with the original Bloodlines and they had fucking Activision as publisher and they arent known to be understanding kind of people.
When it was presented, the vision document (at least what was presented to us) said that it was to be literally a game with temporary power-ups, special moves and whatnot.. it sounded like a cheap arcade game.. and when they showed the demo, it looked like that too.. the animations were criminally bad, but hey, early in the development process, etc.. so we let it slide..then they showed it off in Germany (if i recall ?), where there was supposed to be fans hands on for the first time, etc.. they reneged on that, and the game still looked terrible... and after that, they stopped showing us anything, which isn't exactly a staple of confidence.

I am guessing that it was around that time (October 2019) that Paradox started seriously questioning things.. by that time, the game had been in development since 2016 (if i recall ?), and they had precious little to show for it. Then 2020 came around, and the firings, etc stared..

Edit : They also hired Alexandre Mandryka, a "hatchetman", to get the game back on track. This was in August of 2020. I am guessing he reported back that it couldn't be saved, which is why they went to this extreme measure of switching developer. ah well..
 
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moon knight

Matt7895's alt
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
1,101
Location
Italy
I'm just surprised more CRPGs haven't been made using WoD material. I mean, vampires and werewolves are at least kinda mainstream IMHO.

Both have been ruined to the point where even their mass appeal is finished. Werewolves are best as a plot device for murder mysteries with a Jekyl/Hyde element. Vampires are about Faustian bargains and everything around that. Both are unmistakably evil and to be reviled. I haven't witnessed any of these elements in media for a very long time. Rather than being creatures of horror that embody savage terror and existential dread, they are now a platform for inept degenerates to self-insert their perversity. Vampires and werewolves both been simultaneously sanitized and fetishized beyond recognition. Nobody cares anymore.

Vampires in TW3 Blood & Wine were well written
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,754
When it was presented, the vision document (at least what was presented to us) said that it was to be literally a game with temporary power-ups, special moves and whatnot.. it sounded like a cheap arcade game.. and when they showed the demo, it looked like that too..

What I have been shown of the intro, the tutorial and the haven looked fine, but that was only environment and dialogue. So it might well be that the fighting just didn't work! I remember all this talk about melee being the focus and ranged only secondary with stupid ideas like the player throwing firearms away. Why basically try to weaken one mayor way that you could play Bloodlines? Especially as first person shooting is much easier than first person melee fighting...
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
My best hunch at the moment is Splash Damage:
What about Bioware? They were under hardcore reform and revision. Bioware's Bloodlines shall win even most based hearts of Delete-terrius and Jenkis-khan.
"How was I supposed to know that he was with the Inquisition? And it's not like the attack hurt you, you killed all those cops!"
1. "Oh you. Don't do it again, you rascal." (Humanity increase)
2. "The Traditions are clear about this." *kill him*
3. "I will rip off your head, jam a straw into the stump and turn you into a human Caprisun!" *proceed do so* (Humanity decrease)
4. Hello there... (Heart Icon)
 

PlacidDragon

Educated
Joined
Dec 23, 2002
Messages
43
What I have been shown of the intro, the tutorial and the haven looked fine, but that was only environment and dialogue. So it might well be that the fighting just didn't work! I remember all this talk about melee being the focus and ranged only secondary with stupid ideas like the player throwing firearms away. Why basically try to weaken one mayor way that you could play Bloodlines? Especially as first person shooting is much easier than first person melee fighting...
yeah, thats what i meant by "temporary power-ups". You'd pick up a weapon off the floor (say it was a knife). After stabbing a few times, the knife took structural damage and disintegrated. If you picked up a revolver, you'd fire its 6 shots and then throw the gun away. The type of weapon was also entirely cosmetic. A gun was a gun, period. A skin might make it look different, but functionally, they'd all be the exact same. I made some really snarky remarks on these things on the official forums at the time, but i was literally shouted down by people proclaiming Hardsuit to be the next Bioware/Blizzard.

And the special fighting moves looked..well.. horrendous is the only word that comes to mind :)
 

Gordian Nutt

Educated
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Messages
132
Edit : They also hired Alexandre Mandryka, a "hatchetman", to get the game back on track. This was in August of 2020. I am guessing he reported back that it couldn't be saved, which is why they went to this extreme measure of switching developer. ah well..

Alexandre not being an employee but an evaluator that decides whether to cut project or not was a surprise. I thought he was brought on to replace previous leads, not serve as Paradox's 'project judge' but there it is

The news on this project over the past few days has been surprising and not surprising at same time.
 

Chimera

Augur
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
109
Location
A fallen nation...
if the new dev wants to regain my trust the first thing they need to show us is a model of jaenette. if they downgraded her rack we can safely throw the game in the garbage can. if they stay true to the source material and even give her her old outfit back, i’m willing to give harebrained schemes or cyanide or whoever will take over a chance. what hbs did to damsel still makes me butthurt
Given the contemporary ideology embraced by SJW developers of "destroy all beautiful women as we're jealous not to be among them lest the patriarchy become aroused" and, as you noted, the abomination that was neo-Damsel I wholeheartedly predict...

WHAT WE WANT
jean-001.jpg

jean-002.jpg

jean-003.jpg

jean-004.jpg

WHAT WE GET
jean-hideousbeast.jpg
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
What I have been shown of the intro, the tutorial and the haven looked fine, but that was only environment and dialogue. So it might well be that the fighting just didn't work! I remember all this talk about melee being the focus and ranged only secondary with stupid ideas like the player throwing firearms away. Why basically try to weaken one mayor way that you could play Bloodlines? Especially as first person shooting is much easier than first person melee fighting...
yeah, thats what i meant by "temporary power-ups". You'd pick up a weapon off the floor (say it was a knife). After stabbing a few times, the knife took structural damage and disintegrated. If you picked up a revolver, you'd fire its 6 shots and then throw the gun away. The type of weapon was also entirely cosmetic. A gun was a gun, period. A skin might make it look different, but functionally, they'd all be the exact same. I made some really snarky remarks on these things on the official forums at the time, but i was literally shouted down by people proclaiming Hardsuit to be the next Bioware/Blizzard.

And the special fighting moves looked..well.. horrendous is the only word that comes to mind :)
Did you try Condemned? On that game you play as a cop investigating a serial killer but end on a strange place full of agressive as fuck hobos, the game starts as a normal detective story but becomes more and more bizzare as some strange supernatural element is present and the hobos start getting mutated with some looking like zombies. That game atmosphere screamed World of Darkness to me and its combat system was really interesting, on each room you were, if you werent careful, a single hobo could fuck you up, however, most of the time you were outnumbered.

So, every single encounter you were outnumbered, rarely you would use a gun as ammo was extremely limited and guns were more like a strategic resource to easily get rid of some hobos on critical moments. The combat system on that game is great for horror games as you need to get close and personal and always were on disadvantage, the tension was great. I imagine you playing as a vampire, dealing with Sabbat goons on the same fashion and having your powers to strategically use only once and while, it makes sense as you start as a thin blood so you are bottom of the barrel fighting with trash. The concept isnt bad but I agree with you that they would probably fuck up that because they would make the game super easy what would defeat the whole purpose of the system, so you would lose access to much in terms of guns but gain nothing for it.
 
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Flying Dutchman

Learned
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
475
I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that he was anything other than a writer.
I highly doubt that writing -- of all things -- was the reason development was going so slow.

This. Mitsoda has his share of problems (he has a track record of being difficult, and this isn't his first firing), but blaming him for the VTMB2 clusterfuck feels like a reach.

Mitsoda does sound pretty clueless, though (it's very unlikely he didn't know why he was fired, that seems bizarre - but hey, anything's possible with Hardsuit and Paradox). Maybe he couldn't see his own inadequacies up in his ivory tower or is too stubborn to admit his failings.

Hope he lands on his feet, though, and I hope Hardsuit and Paradox get nothing but suffering from all the fallout from this (they sure seem to be taking hits, PR-wise, financially, and reputation-wise).

Be very curious if the new Mass Effect: Andromeda writer also starts getting hyped like Mitsoda was... I hope so, because we know where that leads with Hardsuit.

The reward? Getting fired!
 

PlacidDragon

Educated
Joined
Dec 23, 2002
Messages
43
Did you tried Condemned? On that game you play as a cop investigating a serial killer but end on a strange place full of agressive as fuck hobos, the game starts as a normal detective story but becomes more and more bizzare as some strange supernatural element is present and the hobos start getting mutated with some looking like zombies. That game atmosphere screamed World of Darkness to me and its combat system was really interesting, on each room you were, if you werent careful, a single hobo could fuck you up, however, most of the time you were outnumbered.

So, every single encounter you were outnumbered, rarely you would use a gun as ammo was extremely limited and guns were more like a strategic resource to easily get rid of some hobos on critical moments. The combat system on that game is great for horror games as you need to get close and personal and always were on disadvantage, the tension was great. I imagine you playing as a vampire, dealing with Sabbat goons on the same fashion and having your powers to strategically use only once and while, it makes sense as you start as a thin blood so you are bottom of the barrel fighting with trash. The concept isnt bad but I agree with you that they would probably fuck up that because they would make the game super easy what would defeat the whole purpose of the system, so you would lose access to much in terms of guns but gain nothing for it.
Not tried Condemned no :) Its made all the way back in 2005 (a year after Bloodlines), guess they made better games back then :D
 

Semiurge

Cipher
Joined
Apr 11, 2020
Messages
6,074
Location
Asp Hole
The 18th of April 2019 relatively shortly after them announcing the game, i said this on the official forums :

"Well, if one wants to be the party pooper here, there is nothing to even remotely suggest that Hardsuit Labs is a triple A company. Their tagline of "we make great games".. no they dont. They haven't made a great game yet. Or indeed any game, much less games, plural. They were born out of the defunct Zombie Studios, which made indie games for 20 years before its owners retired and shut down the company. Games that were at best mediocre, and at worst, downright awful.

So the question isn't really their passion or dedication, etc.. but their ability to make a "great game" at all. They've never done it, and their pedigree is at best, very questionable.

I *really* want this to be a worthy successor to Bloodlines. Until i see the game in action, all i can do is hope really".


yeah.. hoping didn't do much... i am guessing that whatever new studio takes over is basically going to make the game over, more or less from scratch.

Best indication of future behaviour is past behaviour. Thus considering who owns it, WoD is doomed.

if the new dev wants to regain my trust the first thing they need to show us is a model of jaenette. if they downgraded her rack we can safely throw the game in the garbage can. if they stay true to the source material and even give her her old outfit back, i’m willing to give harebrained schemes or cyanide or whoever will take over a chance. what hbs did to damsel still makes me butthurt

At best, this is what would be realistic to expect:

AIi1nxX.jpg


While I think that lack of competence is an issue, looking at Ryder's default male model, I can't help but feel they made an effort to make him as unmanly as possible. He's even short.

But he's prettier than the sister. Not that it's a big surprise...

Makes me sick seeing the ugly character models everywhere.
There’s obviously a concerted effort to make females as unattractive as possible these days, but I think another culprit is a lack of talent. I always chalked up the awful character models in The Outer Worlds and Mass Effect Andromeda to a lack of talent more than anything, though I acknowledge that Obsidian purposely made every woman in Outer Worlds look like an ANTIFA member from Portland, Oregon. Games will continue to decline, both aesthetically and mechanically, as more hack millennials enter the workforce IMO.

There still is a market for traditional values, in romance novels, chickflicks and telenovelas. Especially if they are made in more, shall we say, conservative countries like France, Italy or Spain. They will often be full of beautiful people, both males and females. Those mediums aren't consumed by the woke millenials, however. Not much of a consolation, I know.

And the special fighting moves looked..well.. horrendous is the only word that comes to mind :)

Ah yes, the Brujah "ground stomp shockwave". Yeah, when I play a Brujah I want to smash my fist into the ground instead of through my enemies, like Hulk. :roll:

Did you tried Condemned? On that game you play as a cop investigating a serial killer but end on a strange place full of agressive as fuck hobos, the game starts as a normal detective story but becomes more and more bizzare as some strange supernatural element is present and the hobos start getting mutated with some looking like zombies. That game atmosphere screamed World of Darkness to me and its combat system was really interesting, on each room you were, if you werent careful, a single hobo could fuck you up, however, most of the time you were outnumbered.

So, every single encounter you were outnumbered, rarely you would use a gun as ammo was extremely limited and guns were more like a strategic resource to easily get rid of some hobos on critical moments. The combat system on that game is great for horror games as you need to get close and personal and always were on disadvantage, the tension was great. I imagine you playing as a vampire, dealing with Sabbat goons on the same fashion and having your powers to strategically use only once and while, it makes sense as you start as a thin blood so you are bottom of the barrel fighting with trash. The concept isnt bad but I agree with you that they would probably fuck up that because they would make the game super easy what would defeat the whole purpose of the system, so you would lose access to much in terms of guns but gain nothing for it.

The supernatural element is actually

some kind of paranoia agent released by the government(?) as a test. You can unearth more lore by collecting as many dead birds and metal pieces as you can.
 
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mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
You really think Paradox got rid of them because of too much woke stuff? Is this serious post?

Too much woke stuff and complete utter incompetence go hand in glove. Say what you will, PDX has a sizable track record axing very public projects that fail to meet their expectations qualitywise rather than prod a mangled cripple towards the finish line no matter what.

This heap of trash is effectively cancelled, but since they own the IP anyway, they can start the development of another Bloodlines 2 from scratch at any time, so why generate negative media attention as evil meddlesome publishers who ruined a game by diverse and progressive studio when they can say they are just "transfering it to another developer".
 

ShadowSpectre

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 11, 2017
Messages
333
Location
Limbo
I've been saying for the past year or longer how the game looked like it was in development hell, as they kept releasing only the same playable area after months. Each update the same. Imagine my lack of surprise when it was cancelled. As is the common sentiment around here, good riddance to you and your quest trigger warnings Bloodlines 2. May the original forever remain a cult classic.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
227
I know what needs to happen now... PDX somehow compels Wesp5 & Tessera to join forces and create the One True Golden Shower official unofficial patch for VtmB 2.

On a serious note, nothing of value was lost. But Kudos to PDX for pulling the plug, the alternative would have been painful.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,754
Not tried Condemned no :) Its made all the way back in 2005 (a year after Bloodlines), guess they made better games back then :D

I played Condemned at the time and while the first person melee was great, I hated the fact that the weapons disintegrated. This was as stupid as in SS2, but at least it made some sense because you were supposed to be outnumbered! In Bloodlines on the other hand you are a powerfull vampire, even as a fledgling, and you had all the choices, you could play it as a talker, a sneaker, a brawler or a shooter or mix up all of these. Why throw that away and force people into one direction? That was a bad design move right from the start.
 

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