Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[amurath]

If you haven’t tried the alternative, it could be making you (relatively) miserable and you’d never be the wiser. Now there are people who enjoy clearing Diablo Hell with a butter knife, but that’s not what people here are trying to do. They think they’re making their characters better.

My guess is that they don’t know how initiative and flat-footed work so are getting ganked because flat-footed so try to flight defensively and then can’t hit anything and are still getting ganked because if you lose initiative your fighting defensively doesn’t turn on either. Then splash Monk in a desperate attempt to ameliorate the penalty for fighting defensively etc...

When they’d have been far happier to understand how initiative works in the first place and not massively hose themselves with Fighting Defensively penalties and underleveling themselves.

I don't think initiative is all that important, even on Unfair. Just check your rolls and if you rolled low initiative, run away for a round until it resets and you're no longer flat-footed. I agree though, if you just charge in blindly, you might get wrecked.

 

[Yosharian]

1) SS as an offensive caster that uses Spellstrike is only one way to play the class, and it's not outright better than simply wielding a 2H weapon and using Power Attack instead, at any level, let alone at the higher levels when you are benefitting from insane ability score boosts and broken 2H weapons like Vanquisher or BOTL.

1.5) Attempting to win initiative by normal means vs stat-inflated enemies, especially lategame vs enemies with monstrous initiative bonuses < lol I have Uncanny Dodge.

2) Stuff like Concentration (lol) is pretty irrelevant to a lot of builds/playstyles. This is without even addressing the point that making concentration checks past level 10 or so is piss easy even without stuff like Spell Combat.

3) Perfect Strike is still perfectly usable in boss fights if you get, say, 8 levels of SS, all the extra levels give you is more points, which is not a significant improvement to the character because there are two types of fights in KM, fights where you blow everything and rest afterwards, and fights where you're operating on maximum efficiency (i.e. trash mobs). Having more points to use on PS is not a significant advantage, because if you're using it all the time you still run out way before you finish a dungeon, thus the game naturally steers you towards 'efficiency then blow everything in the boss fight'. My character with 8 levels in SS already has more than enough arcana points to nuke any boss from orbit if he used Perfect Strike, not that I need to when stuff dies in two hits anyway.

4) Nobody is advocating skipping level 5 so you're a retard for posting that. Same with level 6.

5) All the arcana except Bane Blade (see next point) are either for maximising spell damage (see point 1) or they're useless (Prescient Attack does the same thing as Shatter, if you're optimising you take Shatter); Dimension Strike is too expensive and arguably overkill if you have Shatter and a decent AB. Wand Mastery? You must be retarded.

6) Bane Blade is a very good arcana but it requires 15 levels and you only get 2d6+2 damage out of it, you can get far more damage from simply moving to a Sneak Attack class instead, and most of them offer other benefits as well. Not to mention that my own MC build ALREADY HAS BANE ON HIS BIS WEAPON.

7) All of those level 6 spells that can't simply be cast more efficiently by other party members are absolute trash compared to just picking up a 2H weapon and autoattacking with Power Attack.

I can't believe I actually had to write any of this when the game has been out for over 2 years. You're actually retarded.

 

[Yosharian]

Lemme just go ahead and pre-empty this absolute prick's response

1) tag every post on this page with 'Facepalm' because he has a god complex and anything anyone posts that is in opposition to his idiotic spiels (which basically consist of screenshotting vaguely exciting moments from his game and posting them on here in order to get fellated by his fanclub) is evidently facepalm-worthy

2) write some vague pseudobabble hinting that he knows how to counter all of the points you made but he's not going to because it's beneath him (see god complex from point 1)

3) post an obscure quote from some writer nobody's ever heard of in an effort to look cerebral

4) post some vague religious nonsense

 

[LannTheStupid]

We had so called "карательная психиатрия" in the USSR when dissidents and other enemies of the people were put into asylums without trial and then drugged to make them safe. I think some table toppers desperately need 2-3 years of such treatment.

 

[Nano]

Lemme just go ahead and pre-empty this absolute prick's response

You have 100 people in your ignore list. How am I supposed to take anything you say seriously?

 

[Desiderius]

Well I have him on ignore so can’t really blame him. He’s at work so theorycrafting is all he has. Don’t go too hard on him.

That really is TL;DR, but I see he’s shit himself first thing on the main point. The facepalms are for people trying to engage without grasping it.

If you take the splash you’re not just skipping class level x for player level x, you’re skipping class level x+y for player level x+y for all y from 1 to end of game. Getting class level x+y-1 at player level x+y is beside the point. You’re just agreeing that you’re underleveled for all the class abilities, including size of arcane pool which most people spend feats to expand.

Soloing is the opposite since you’re massively over leveled so it makes sense to spend a couple of your extra levels making up for what you would get from the team.

 

[Parabalus]

Well I have him on ignore so can’t really blame him. He’s at work so theorycrafting is all he has. Don’t go too hard on him.

That really is TL;DR, but I see he’s shit himself first thing on the main point. The facepalms are for people trying to engage without grasping it.

If you take the splash you’re not just skipping class level x for player level x, you’re skipping class level x+y for player level x+y for all y from 1 to end of game. Getting class level x+y-1 at player level x+y is beside the point. You’re just agreeing that you’re underleveled for all the class abilities, including size of arcane pool which most people spend feats to expand.

Soloing is the opposite since you’re massively over leveled so it makes sense to spend a couple of your extra levels making up for what you would get from the team.

None of that matters if you're unhittable though.

 

[Desiderius]

To make this concrete I’d recommend playing the game both ways (with the understanding that you’ll need to pay more attention to AC until midgame), but if you’re like Yosh and don’t have access just think of where you are at each level and what you’d rather have. Would you like to have another 10 base damage or whatever and fifth level spells and a bigger arcane pool and etc, etc in VTomb or some extra AC?

Ive got a pet and well-built Harrim to handle most of the heat so my SS main would be in charge of destroying key threats like the Giant Clerics. Another ten damage (multiplied on crits) per whack is exactly what I’m looking for there. You’re still +20 AC on most everything without the splash by that time anyway.

 

[Desiderius]

None of that matters if you're unhittable though.

The shit you’re doing to make yourself “unhittable” is destroying your entire experience of the game. You’re effectively playing solo without the benefit of soloing (greater experience) and having to cheese the game (and then wasting half of the benefit of doing so since that Hat could be helping your casters beat saves) to do so. And still you’re not unhittable full stop and are even less so in Wrath thank God. Monk splash doesn’t give you infinite AC.

 

[Parabalus]

Well I have him on ignore so can’t really blame him. He’s at work so theorycrafting is all he has. Don’t go too hard on him.

That really is TL;DR, but I see he’s shit himself first thing on the main point. The facepalms are for people trying to engage without grasping it.

If you take the splash you’re not just skipping class level x for player level x, you’re skipping class level x+y for player level x+y for all y from 1 to end of game. Getting class level x+y-1 at player level x+y is beside the point. You’re just agreeing that you’re underleveled for all the class abilities, including size of arcane pool which most people spend feats to expand.

Soloing is the opposite since you’re massively over leveled so it makes sense to spend a couple of your extra levels making up for what you would get from the team.

None of that matters if you're unhittable though.

The shit you’re doing to make yourself “unhittable” is destroying your entire experience of the game. You’re effectively playing solo without the benefit of soloing (greater experience) and having to cheese the game (and then wasting half of the benefit of doing so since that Hat could be helping your casters beat saves) to do so. And still you’re not unhittable full stop and are even less so in Wrath thank God. Monk splash doesn’t give you infinite AC.

You are doing the same thing to yourself, even with your 10 dmg/hit strawman.

Between 5-18 one level barely detracts from the class, especially if you have other casters in the party. If you have another tank in the party, great, but if you don't it's a tradeoff to consider.

 

[Desiderius]

amurath is a soloer and one of the best. Solo is a different game. Using Charge effectively to take out key threats/grab the tempo of the fight is much more important in team play than solo. For people coming from MMOs solo will feel much more familiar. You can play MMO style as a team but then SS is much more suited for spank than tank in that frame.

 

[Desiderius]

All my melee are tanks because I keep the sample size of enemy attacks low. With Illusionary defenses (Mirror Image, Displacement, Blur) this is both enough and fits well with how illusions work. Give people enough time they'll see through them.

“Between 5-18 one level barely detracts from the class,”

This is begging the question. Unless you’ve played both ways (I have) you don’t know what you’re missing. It’s a lot.

 

[Parabalus]

All my melee are tanks because I keep the sample size of enemy attacks low.

“Between 5-18 one level barely detracts from the class,”

This is begging the question. Unless you’ve played both ways (I have) you don’t know what you’re missing. It’s a lot.

I did obv, and I disagree. You can even respec between them to compare what you like more.

 

[Yosharian]

1) doesn't make substantive rebuttal of anything actually said
2) vaguely alludes to retarded shit
3) facepalms everything for no reason

just waiting on the Dostoevsky quote and some spiel on how the virgin Mary is the best NPC in the bible and the circle of retardation will be complete

 

[Yosharian]

What's sad is that you actually took the time to screenshot and collate all those arcanas, actually thinking that you had a gotcha moment on your hands. Like analysing the cost/benefit of those isn't the first thing anyone does when considering whether to go further in the class or switch to something else. You actually thought that was a good argument. You're actually a moron.

 

[Desiderius]

There are a couple interesting points:

1) Ignoring the costs, the benefits of the monk splash are so front-loaded that they offset some of the skewed difficulty curve by making you stronger earlier. Likewise SS is such a broken class at what it does that underleveling it also provides a play experience closer to what was intended by design.

2) When I originally set out to test Crusader to see if it was as bad as everyone says (it wasn't) I was still Monk splashing on everything. As a WIS class it could then go naked and use robes. I'm at an exact point where the downside of having done so is most stark. I'd be missing Crusader's Edge which is what let me kill this insane boss in two rounds. His AB is higher than my AC so a Monk splash isn't even putting a dent in that. The armor he drops puts me ahead AC-wise at level seven of where I would have been until I got those robes in P:K (level 13) and gives +4 to damage when flanking (always). Going naked is giving up an equipment slot and the bonuses that go with it. Obv Saint has no choice but Monk splashing goes on all over.

 

[NJClaw]

I don't think initiative is all that important, even on Unfair. Just check your rolls and if you rolled low initiative, run away for a round until it resets and you're no longer flat-footed. I agree though, if you just charge in blindly, you might get wrecked.

This is your brain on RTwP, guys. Please seek help

 

[LannTheStupid]

This is your brain on RTwP, guys. Please seek help

So there is a mode where initiative is not that important, and there is a mode where initiative is crucial. Why would anyone play the latter when there is the former?

 

[Desiderius]

If you’re used to the MMO (tank, spank, and heal) play style (and obviously a whole generation are) then it can be hard to picture other approaches (especially since MMO groups will bully you out of them unless you find a top guild, and even there high level content often takes tank and spank for granted), but it seems that with the hardest encounters P:K and even more so Wrath design is aimed at breaking people out of that frame, or at least exclusive reliance on it.

Now I’m sure world class raid leaders could figure out a way to tank and spank Hargulka or the Womb Owlbear on Unfair but it would take that level of play (far beyond what I’m capable of), which is what pissed Porky (and thousands like him) off so much about those encounters.

And it’s stepped up another level in Wrath (for now). But the point of that design isn’t to force players into splashes/reloads to barely tank and spank it, it’s to open their eyes to different approaches.

Distract, debuff, and disable. Alpha Strike Combat Manuevers. Finding the chink in the armor for a save or die. Figuring out which one best fits each situation and how to design your characters and team to be able to apply them is much more fun than doing the same tank, spank, and heal for the millionth time, especially if you have to break your builds and cheese the game to do so.

 

[Desiderius]

Initiative is the most important thing in the game on both, which is another reason why the monk splash on Saint is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Now of course you can always kite like InEffective but that’s where “this game is a slog” comes from. Only thing that’s a slog for me is the buffing.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Kiting is good. Pink Eye had some amazing kiting in the monk run he has on youtube.

However, if I switch the weapons of the frontliners to ranged or if they cast something, and then wait until the enemies run under fire to my party - is it sill kiting or what? Why should the party rush ahead unless it is a scripted encounter? My party almost always sees the enemies before they start attacking. What's wrong with that?

Or course, the A.I. should have shot the party from the distance as well, and due to increased stats could have won the encounter - but it rarely does that. At least in Kingmaker.

 

[Desiderius]

Kiting is good. Pink Eye had some amazing kiting in the monk run he has on youtube.

However, if I switch the weapons of the frontliners to ranged or if they cast something, and then wait until the enemies run under fire to my party - is it sill kiting or what? Why should the party rush ahead unless it is a scripted encounter? My party almost always sees the enemies before they start attacking. What's wrong with that?

Or course, the A.I. should have shot the party from the distance as well, and due to increased stats could have won the encounter - but it rarely does that. At least in Kingmaker.

Tempo

Spoiler

A whole combat log of calculations none of which care about my AC.

Charge gives +2 to hit plus various procs on hit, but massive damage is it's own proc.

Main reason to take fight to the enemy is when they have their own threats hanging back that you need to get to, but alpha on bosses also helps when available.

D:OS 2 made you take turns for a reason.

 

[Nano]

Between 5-18 one level barely detracts from the class

Okay, sure. But it's just not *fun*. Being permanently behind on spell progression is lame as fuck. Magus is a strong class, there's no good reason for diluting it.

 

[KateMicucci]

When I was doing character creation the only thumbs-up feat was point blank shot. Why would I want that for a plain magi?

Why does the trading post man sell only masterwork weapons? Something seems jank here.

Why is a tower shield 50 pounds???

 

[Parabalus]

I don't think initiative is all that important, even on Unfair. Just check your rolls and if you rolled low initiative, run away for a round until it resets and you're no longer flat-footed. I agree though, if you just charge in blindly, you might get wrecked.

This is your brain on RTwP, guys. Please seek help

In TB it's really different since often you want enemies to come to you so you can full attack them.

Initiative is the most important thing in the game on both, which is another reason why the monk splash on Saint is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Now of course you can always kite like InEffective but that’s where “this game is a slog” comes from. Only thing that’s a slog for me is the buffing.

Psure if the enemies can't hit you initiative doesn't matter.