Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Axioms]

As someone who really wants to play a game with wild multiclassing as a highly viable strategy, Pathfinder is not the system to do it in. At best you might autistically maximize a full skill monkey but it is probably more effective to just split skills over characters anyways.

Well, my Frankenstein Vivi build begs to disagree.


Although some classes make more sense to stay (mostly) pure. Such as a Sword Saint.

The question isn't whether multiclassing is functional, it is whether it is superior to pure classing. You can do a ton of wild multiclasses that work. Although certain dips like monk, paladin, dragon disciple, and alchemist are the most common. But the question is whether you are outdoing a pure build.

Now for skill monkeys especially with mods dipping is obscenely good. 3 dip investigator, 2 dip to mindalchemist is amazing. Then you'd typically just level bard and maybe a bit of rogue. If you have mindacl and investi available you have to be essentially a moron to not dip. That is not true with most other dips for combat classes.

And even with tons of extra feats and character traits and class bonuses and shit from mods caster multiclassing for instance is generally bad.

 

[Desiderius]

[The question isn't whether multiclassing is functional, it is whether it is superior to pure classing. You can do a ton of wild multiclasses that work. Although certain dips like monk, paladin, dragon disciple, and alchemist are the most common. But the question is whether you are outdoing a pure build.

Now for skill monkeys especially with mods dipping is obscenely good. 3 dip investigator, 2 dip to mindalchemist is amazing. Then you'd typically just level bard and maybe a bit of rogue. If you have mindacl and investi available you have to be essentially a moron to not dip. That is not true with most other dips for combat classes.

And even with tons of extra feats and character traits and class bonuses and shit from mods caster multiclassing for instance is generally bad.

Straight Investigator destroys that too. Studied Combat scales per lvl/2 (over twice as fast as Slayer's Studied Target). And you need the Talents from leveling in class to make everything else work.

With Empiricist you get pretty much all the skills.

 

[Desiderius]

Chiurgeon without taking Infusion Discovery would be an interesting one to try, especially in Wrath with the Mythic that let's you heal at range. Spontaneous Healing is big to give you some better spell options at fourth and fifth level and access to Breath of Life is a game changer when playing Tinman. Even in P:K would let you go without a Cleric Healer so Val could be a nuker Oracle that still gives you access to Shield of Faith and Archon's etc...

 

[Axioms]

[The question isn't whether multiclassing is functional, it is whether it is superior to pure classing. You can do a ton of wild multiclasses that work. Although certain dips like monk, paladin, dragon disciple, and alchemist are the most common. But the question is whether you are outdoing a pure build.

Now for skill monkeys especially with mods dipping is obscenely good. 3 dip investigator, 2 dip to mindalchemist is amazing. Then you'd typically just level bard and maybe a bit of rogue. If you have mindacl and investi available you have to be essentially a moron to not dip. That is not true with most other dips for combat classes.

And even with tons of extra feats and character traits and class bonuses and shit from mods caster multiclassing for instance is generally bad.

Straight Investigator destroys that too. Studied Combat scales per lvl/2 (over twice as fast as Slayer's Studied Target). And you need the Talents from leveling in class to make everything else work.

With Empiricist you get pretty much all the skills.

Do you not know what a skill monkey is mate? Who cares about studied combat?

 

[NJClaw]

Do you not know what a skill monkey is mate? Who cares about studied combat?

Kingmaker has so few skills with so many skill points for each character that by adding a proper skill monkey to your group you're willingly gimping yourself. Nothing wrong with that though.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I get it Desiderius. I'm not advocating dips. I'm merely moderating the hyperbole that they are strictly verboten and devoid of merit. Dipping allowed me to shore-up my MC's archetype deficiencies at little to no opportunity cost. It went from ordinary to invincible for the cost of some forgettable DPS. Item hoarding on my MC was not a problem. To the contrary, dipping allowed me to pass items on and used others that would have been vendor cash. Again, I'm not saying exceptions are the rule. I'm saying that they exist.

 

[Axioms]

Do you not know what a skill monkey is mate? Who cares about studied combat?

Kingmaker has so few skills with so many skill points for each character that by adding a proper skill monkey to your group you're willingly gimping yourself. Nothing wrong with that though.

That is mostly cause the rolls are low but yes you can probably do some complicated shit to get the skills spread around the party. However the skill values on a min-maxed skill monkey are pretty damn high relative to a normal character's natural skill growth. With the proper build, and capped at level 20 since some mods go higher, you are averaging 50 before inspiration and mutagens and spells and bard shit on every roll. Just your static bonuses are averaging 50. That is with all 3 investigator talents that make inspiration persistent. Possessed, not calculated into the result.

Once you add inspiration as well as the bard song and cognatogen plus belts/hats as well as any other spell buffs, all stuff on the MC, this isn't counting buffs from other characters, you are looking at like 70 for a given check.

 

[Haplo]

Don't understand what would be the point?

 

[Desiderius]

I get it Desiderius. I'm not advocating dips. I'm merely moderating the hyperbole that they are strictly verboten and devoid of merit. Dipping allowed me to shore-up my MC's archetype deficiencies at little to no opportunity cost. It went from ordinary to invincible for the cost of some forgettable DPS. Item hoarding on my MC was not a problem. To the contrary, dipping allowed me to pass items on and used others that would have been vendor cash. Again, I'm saying exceptions are the rule. I'm saying that they exist.

Splash is more low maintenance, especially if you start on Hard or Unfair. Gives you a more level difficulty curve which may make for a better overall experience.

I’ve been fighting the people who bullied everyone into assuming it was unquestionably better on that basis from the beginning to the extent to which most people have never experienced the game as designed, including the fun tactics involved in keeping your not so unhittable SS alive until around level ten or so.

To this day people still say the splash is cheese when it’s closer to the opposite. My goal is for people’s choices to be well informed.

 

[Desiderius]

Do you not know what a skill monkey is mate? Who cares about studied combat?

Kingmaker has so few skills with so many skill points for each character that by adding a proper skill monkey to your group you're willingly gimping yourself. Nothing wrong with that though.

That is mostly cause the rolls are low but yes you can probably do some complicated shit to get the skills spread around the party. However the skill values on a min-maxed skill monkey are pretty damn high relative to a normal character's natural skill growth. With the proper build, and capped at level 20 since some mods go higher, you are averaging 50 before inspiration and mutagens and spells and bard shit on every roll. Just your static bonuses are averaging 50. That is with all 3 investigator talents that make inspiration persistent. Possessed, not calculated into the result.

Once you add inspiration as well as the bard song and cognatogen plus belts/hats as well as any other spell buffs, all stuff on the MC, this isn't counting buffs from other characters, you are looking at like 70 for a given check.

I’m telling you dipshit that I can do and have done just that with a full Investigator in a well designed party while simultaneously lighting everything up with his ridiculous Studied Combat ability. Takes until around lvl 12 or so to really take over but then you’re just gold.

Really shouldn’t talk down to people who know more than you because we’re both smarter and have actually tested what we’re talking about.

 

[Axioms]

Do you not know what a skill monkey is mate? Who cares about studied combat?

Kingmaker has so few skills with so many skill points for each character that by adding a proper skill monkey to your group you're willingly gimping yourself. Nothing wrong with that though.

That is mostly cause the rolls are low but yes you can probably do some complicated shit to get the skills spread around the party. However the skill values on a min-maxed skill monkey are pretty damn high relative to a normal character's natural skill growth. With the proper build, and capped at level 20 since some mods go higher, you are averaging 50 before inspiration and mutagens and spells and bard shit on every roll. Just your static bonuses are averaging 50. That is with all 3 investigator talents that make inspiration persistent. Possessed, not calculated into the result.

Once you add inspiration as well as the bard song and cognatogen plus belts/hats as well as any other spell buffs, all stuff on the MC, this isn't counting buffs from other characters, you are looking at like 70 for a given check.

I’m telling you dipshit that I can do and have done just that with a full Investigator in a well designed party while simultaneously lighting everything up with his ridiculous Studied Combat ability. Takes until around lvl 12 or so to really take over but then you’re just gold.

Really shouldn’t talk down to people who know more than you because we’re both smarter and have actually tested what we’re talking about.

You have gotten 50 on unbuffed skill bonuses on a full investigator? I'm looking right now and it is an average of less than 40. And the fancy inspiration buffs from investigator talents are not enough to save it.

 

[Yosharian]

Bullies induce shame and humiliation in others by intuitively recognizing a person's insecurities and attacking them. The bully’s attacks are projections of their own shame and feelings of inadequacy that are modified to penetrate a victim’s vulnerability. Attacking others not only halts any inclination to look within themselves, it also can be exciting as it stimulates the physical experience of power. Although bullies diminish others in order to raise themselves up, they are not conscious of how negatively they feel about themselves. Diminishing others keeps their need to elevate themselves out of their conscious awareness.

 

[Yosharian]

It is shown in the way he carries himself, he looks at others, he speaks and reacts to things. He oozes with over-self-confidence, with a tone of voice that cannot be other than bossy and strident.

That's when we can speak of the self-righteous bully. He gives the impression that he knows everything, that he is superior to others, etc.

 

[Desiderius]

Who the fuck said anything about unbuffed? That’s the whole point of the game numbnuts.

If you want solo designs for team play talk to InEffective. The rest of us know how to do more than theorycraft in a vacuum.

 

[Parabalus]

Taking a dip just to cast less buffs is worth it.

 

[Desiderius]

And yet I don’t condescend to Haplo, or NJ, or new people who show up without an attitude. I admit when I’m wrong all the time. Don’t project your own low-T response on others, man.

People try to bully me or swing their dick around get a better idea of where things stand fast then we’re good.

 

[Desiderius]

Taking a dip just to cast less buffs is worth it.

Can be true. Buffing time is a big impediment to njoyable play.

 

[Xamenos]

Taking a dip just to cast less buffs is worth it.

I wouldn't even spend a feat (blindfight) just to cast fewer buffs, let alone a whole level.

 

[Axioms]

Who the fuck said anything about unbuffed? That’s the whole point of the game numbnuts.

If you want solo designs for team play talk to InEffective. The rest of us know how to do more than theorycraft in a vacuum.

Feel free to post a build where you hit 70 on every single check even with buffs as a level 20 investigator. I'll wait. That was the content of the post you responded to. You're gonna need a solid 40 points of bonus on some skills. 24 if we assume a you rolled double d8s for inspiration after having the relevant inspiration feats/talents. But even then 24 is a bit rough.

 

[Desiderius]

Taking a dip just to cast less buffs is worth it.

I wouldn't even spend a feat (blindfight) just to cast fewer buffs, let alone a whole level.

To each his own. Depending on how many I’m ready to talk. Never missed Good Hope so much.

 

[Desiderius]

Who the fuck said anything about unbuffed? That’s the whole point of the game numbnuts.

If you want solo designs for team play talk to InEffective. The rest of us know how to do more than theorycraft in a vacuum.

Feel free to post a build where you hit 70 on every single check even with buffs as a level 20 investigator. I'll wait. That was the content of the post you responded to. You're gonna need a solid 40 points of bonus on some skills. 24 if we assume a you rolled double d8s for inspiration after having the relevant inspiration feats/talents. But even then 24 is a bit rough.

lol

There are better players than me who got down to Depths levels with traps that had like 110 Trickery checks or something. Better talk to them.

If that’s what you’re talking about I defer to your superior wisdom. I’m confident I could easily hit 70 though, but even there the main benefit of Investigator specifically is earlier in the game where checks aren’t anywhere near that but Empricist specifically gives you the perfect boost on the things that matter.

 

[Jackpot]

Just played Varnhold's lot, it reminded me of everything I disliked in this game.
Encounter after encounter of annoying enemies wearing you down.

I can't decide if the game giving you a wizard and a rogue only to take them away halfway through the final dungeon, leaving you without spells or lockpicking unless you foresaw it happening is funny or complete and utter horseshit.

 

[gurugeorge]

Oh for God's sake, I've started playing this again. Someone stop me

 

[Desiderius]

Just played Varnhold's lot, it reminded me of everything I disliked in this game.
Encounter after encounter of annoying enemies wearing you down.

I can't decide if the game giving you a wizard and a rogue only to take them away halfway through the final dungeon, leaving you without spells or lockpicking unless you foresaw it happening is funny or complete and utter horseshit.

If you play the companions they gave you you can make it to the end (they give you the glasses so you can still identify stuff). If you didn't then you break it you buy it. If the enemies are annoying and wearing you down then try a lower difficulty until you feel like you've mastered them.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh for God's sake, I've started playing this again. Someone stop me

Got a new Depths crew firing up. Putting Wrath on hold until next beta.