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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,456
why people are soo obsessed by the canon of a setting made for being ignored (by every DM mastering a forgotten realm campaing)?
Wotc and Ed himself change stuff every year so they can put new stuff, it happen every edition or on every book, is even worse than the warhammer lore that serve a similar scope.

Yes and that's what people despise, there's a reason tons of people look back at 2e as the golden age and still use it.

I get the "you can just do whatever you want with it" argument, but that's an argument that kind of argues itself into meaninglessness, if there is no point to the setting then why even print it, you could make up your own at that point.
 

Testownia

Guest
why people are soo obsessed by the canon of a setting made for being ignored (by every DM mastering a forgotten realm campaing)?
Wotc and Ed himself change stuff every year so they can put new stuff, it happen every edition or on every book, is even worse than the warhammer lore that serve a similar scope.

Because people treat them as stories first, and game systems later. So you have a natural predisposition of wanting the "true" version of a story.

Also, the worst setting in terms of retcons is definitely WarCraft, where the retcons began as soon as WarCraft II (which also makes the bitching and moaning about retcons in WoW all the more hilarious).

The most consistent, at least so far? Dragon Age... Pillars of Eternity... and The Elder Scrolls. The latter especially made the wise decision of having every... single... source of information being subjective.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,456
The latter especially made the wise decision of having every... single... source of information being subjective.

Not really true. That only began with Morrowind--fair enough if you take a dim view of the average person and assume they thought the series starts with Morrowind, but the storytelling before Morrowind was incredibly different.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The latter especially made the wise decision of having every... single... source of information being subjective.

Not really true. That only began with Morrowind--fair enough if you take a dim view of the average person and assume they thought the series starts with Morrowind, but the storytelling before Morrowind was incredibly different.
The unreliable narrator of TES lore started with Daggerfall. Many of the books in Daggerfall were written not by the developers but by Arena and Daggerfall beta testers, and they frequently contradict each other.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The most consistent, at least so far? Dragon Age...
Fun fact: the details of the entries in your codex change depending on your background and -- I suspect -- certain choices you make.
Also, the Mass Effect 1/2/3 codex contains blatant falsehoods that are obvious counsel/alliance coverups -- you know because they're things you were involved in.
 

Ruchy

Scholar
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Messages
202
Location
Australia
from scale 1 to 10, how polished is this game to play right now? I'm bored atm :|
There's some obvious WIP bits dangling, as well as a variety of balance and interface issues, but I didn't feel like the EA was "unpolished." It's got some bad designs, but most of what's in is stable and playable.

The real question is how tolerant are you with a control scheme that'll make you wish you were playing NWN2 instead? Personally, I'm averse to recommending BG3 in this state, but then again it looks increasingly less likely that Larian will fix it.

The controls still aren't great but chained characters at least auto jump now to follow you in Patch 4.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,774
Location
Frostfell
The difference between LV 1 to 20 in 5e is far smaller than on 3.5e and 2e. But why ALL D&D 5e adaptations insists in ultra low Dungeons & Kobolds gameplay? Not only BG3. Solasta has a lv cap = 10. BG3 IDK.

Meanwhile, PF:WoTR will feature a campaign till lv 20 and mythic paths. And a lv 20 Lich casting wail of the banshee is far more powerful than any 5e spell.
 

Testownia

Guest
The most consistent, at least so far? Dragon Age...
Fun fact: the details of the entries in your codex change depending on your background and -- I suspect -- certain choices you make.
Also, the Mass Effect 1/2/3 codex contains blatant falsehoods that are obvious counsel/alliance coverups -- you know because they're things you were involved in.

Could you give examples of both? I'm honestly curious.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
The difference between LV 1 to 20 in 5e is far smaller than on 3.5e and 2e. But why ALL D&D 5e adaptations insists in ultra low Dungeons & Kobolds gameplay? Not only BG3. Solasta has a lv cap = 10. BG3 IDK.

Because low to mid level D&D is much more interesting to most people than high level play with overpowered builds and broken abilities.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,502
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
a control scheme that'll make you wish you were playing NWN2 instead

Oof, that's about as harsh a critique as they come. :)
The difference between LV 1 to 20 in 5e is far smaller than on 3.5e and 2e. But why ALL D&D 5e adaptations insists in ultra low Dungeons & Kobolds gameplay? Not only BG3. Solasta has a lv cap = 10. BG3 IDK.

Because low to mid level D&D is much more interesting to most people than high level play with overpowered builds and broken abilities.

I honestly think there's an element of overload as well. When you have 60 million abilities with tiny icons, pondering your options for the next move starts to become a bit of a chore, whereas when you have fewer it's more engaging. The sweet spot for me with D&D type games is always between lvl 3-5 (when you start to get more interesting abilities) and about lvl 8 or 10 or so, maybe as much as 15 in some cases; it all just gets a bit tedious after that.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
I honestly think there's an element of overload as well. When you have 60 million abilities with tiny icons, pondering your options for the next move starts to become a bit of a chore, whereas when you have fewer it's more engaging. The sweet spot for me with D&D type games is always between lvl 3-5 (when you start to get more interesting abilities) and about lvl 8 or 10 or so, maybe as much as 15 in some cases; it all just gets a bit tedious after that.

I guess that is part of it. Especially when most abilities are suboptimal are even useless at high level you eventually end up using the same one or two abilities anyway.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,774
Location
Frostfell
Because low to mid level D&D is much more interesting to most people than high level play with overpowered builds and broken abilities.

Wrong. Pathfinder Kingmaker becomes great once you reach lv 8+. And PF:WoTR will feature a Liches that can become godlike to the point to granting divine spells to the undeads that they create, azatas with dragon companions, swarms that can talk... BG3 in other hands, start with you escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship who fought a draconic army and there you fight the might, all powerful, extreme iconic intellect devourer.

specially when most abilities are suboptimal are even useless at high level you eventually end up using the same one or two abilities anyway.

Wrong. Pick wail of the banshee on kingmaker for eg. Is amazing against wild hunt but awful against the Jabberwock. Abilities are situational on the game.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
Because low to mid level D&D is much more interesting to most people than high level play with overpowered builds and broken abilities.

Wrong. Pathfinder Kingmaker becomes great once you reach lv 8+. And PF:WoTR will feature a Liches that can become godlike to the point to granting divine spells to the undeads that they create, azatas with dragon companions, swarms that can talk... BG3 in other hands, start with you escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship who fought a draconic army and there you fight the might, all powerful, extreme iconic intellect devourer.

From your previous post it is clear, that you personally like high-level gameplay more than low-level. But I have the impression that most players don't.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
7,513
Location
Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Wrong. Pathfinder Kingmaker becomes great once you reach lv 8+. And PF:WoTR will feature a Liches that can become godlike to the point to granting divine spells to the undeads that they create, azatas with dragon companions, swarms that can talk... BG3 in other hands, start with you escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship who fought a draconic army and there you fight the might, all powerful, extreme iconic intellect devourer.
Baldur's Gate 1 had you fight gibberlings, gnolls, and hobgoblins for half the game and it's still one of the best RPGs ever made.
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
3,264
The most consistent, at least so far? Dragon Age... Pillars of Eternity... and The Elder Scrolls. The latter especially made the wise decision of having every... single... source of information being subjective.

TES still completely retcon cyrodil between morrowind and oblivion.
 

Testownia

Guest
The most consistent, at least so far? Dragon Age... Pillars of Eternity... and The Elder Scrolls. The latter especially made the wise decision of having every... single... source of information being subjective.

TES still completely retcon cyrodil between morrowind and oblivion.

Not really? Before Oblivion, it's only described as a jungle within a single book, whilst being a "regular" temperate climate region in Arena. And even then they used an already-present mechanic (Dragon Breaks/Warps) to explain it away.
 

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,650
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
BG1 is a fun RPG, but it's pretty shallow. Wilderness areas are way bigger and more numerous than they need to be, most quests are of the fetch or kill variety with little branching (both in the wilderness areas and in Baldur's Gate), and there's barely anything differentiating Bioware's companions from custom-made ones (with the exception of not being able to edit their class and stats). The game starts really turning good when you reach Chapter 6 or Durlag's Tower, but you need a high level to get there.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
Because low to mid level D&D is much more interesting to most people than high level play with overpowered builds and broken abilities.

Wrong. Pathfinder Kingmaker becomes great once you reach lv 8+. And PF:WoTR will feature a Liches that can become godlike to the point to granting divine spells to the undeads that they create, azatas with dragon companions, swarms that can talk... BG3 in other hands, start with you escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship who fought a draconic army and there you fight the might, all powerful, extreme iconic intellect devourer.
PK starts falling apart mid- to high levels, because this is where spellcasters get the powerful aoes and the enemy ai doesn't know how to move out of aoes. The few high level spellcaster battles exemplify further that the ai also doesn't handle spellcasting well. So no, as much as I like PK, the game handles low level battles better. E.g. wererats in the cave in chapter 1.

Picking flashy spells for your wizard is not what makes combat interesting. It's how the enemies use their spells and abilities that matters. And usually what happens is that they get more hit points, stats, spells etc., but are stuck with the same ai as their low level brethen.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,187
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Because low to mid level D&D is much more interesting to most people than high level play with overpowered builds and broken abilities.

Wrong. Pathfinder Kingmaker becomes great once you reach lv 8+. And PF:WoTR will feature a Liches that can become godlike to the point to granting divine spells to the undeads that they create, azatas with dragon companions, swarms that can talk... BG3 in other hands, start with you escaping a mindflayer spelljammer ship who fought a draconic army and there you fight the might, all powerful, extreme iconic intellect devourer.
PK starts falling apart mid- to high levels, because this is where spellcasters get the powerful aoes and the enemy ai doesn't know how to move out of aoes. The few high level spellcaster battles exemplify further that the ai also doesn't handle spellcasting well. So no, as much as I like PK, the game handles low level battles better. E.g. wererats in the cave in chapter 1.

Picking flashy spells for your wizard is not what makes combat interesting. It's how the enemies use their spells and abilities that matters. And usually what happens is that they get more hit points, stats, spells etc., but are stuck with the same ai as their low level brethen.

That's not entirely true, but you can tell the TLC was front loaded. Wrath gets off to a stronger overall start on that front so hopefully can either keep up the momentum or at least taper off from a higher point.
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,825
Divinity: Original Sin
Also, the worst setting in terms of retcons is definitely WarCraft, where the retcons began as soon as WarCraft II (which also makes the bitching and moaning about retcons in WoW all the more hilarious).

Have to say I can't remember any particulary large retcons going from WC1 to 2
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,187
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
BG1 is a fun RPG, but it's pretty shallow. Wilderness areas are way bigger and more numerous than they need to be, most quests are of the fetch or kill variety with little branching (both in the wilderness areas and in Baldur's Gate), and there's barely anything differentiating Bioware's companions from custom-made ones (with the exception of not being able to edit their class and stats). The game starts really turning good when you reach Chapter 6 or Durlag's Tower, but you need a high level to get there.

The Wilderness being too big (along with the crickets) is an essential part of the atmosphere/charm.
 

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