Arkane Deathloop - first-person action game from Arkane set on a time loop island

[Wirdschowerdn]

Edit 1: kinda like it was in Mooncrash, with the mule bot transferring gear from one character to another and environment suffering random modifications. I assume. This is just Mooncrash: The full game, so I wouldn't really expect random world generation. Just what they are able to do in Mooncrash.

I also expect that the novelty of this game will taper off fast. No matter how good gameplay may be, it's hard to stay invested without a narrative. But we'll see.

 

[Jenkem]

there's no narrative? interesting.

tell me what your role is at arkane lyon

 

[toro]

Exploration and time limits are antithetical: exploration works best when you can freely waste your time "exploring" the world which is very hard to do when the game is telling you to hurry up and you don't know the real level of urgency.

How so? The game world is persistent (apart from various environmental hazards / power/ transportation issues), you can explore to your hearts content within the time limits, going to another zone / changing exploratory strategies if it expired. Some people are just afraid of timers regardless of what they do and how they work, that's it, no rational explanation needed. Also, there's difference between goals-based exploration and mindless TES-like hiking (it'd be actually great if there were some sort of slow timer in the original game that was tied, for example, to O2 generators or power plants of the station, but it'd be even less palatable for people who like turtle-paced 'explorashun'). Just imagine you could just slowly search for the key card to the janitor room, it'd kill all the suspense and tension.

Most people play games to have fun and escapism not to be subjected to obscure timer mechanics.

This is the way it is. People have always complained about fake urgency either if it was in Fallout, Dragon Age or Mooncrash.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Exploration and time limits are antithetical: exploration works best when you can freely waste your time "exploring" the world which is very hard to do when the game is telling you to hurry up and you don't know the real level of urgency.

How so? The game world is persistent (apart from various environmental hazards / power/ transportation issues), you can explore to your hearts content within the time limits, going to another zone / changing exploratory strategies if it expired. Some people are just afraid of timers regardless of what they do and how they work, that's it, no rational explanation needed. Also, there's difference between goals-based exploration and mindless TES-like hiking (it'd be actually great if there were some sort of slow timer in the original game that was tied, for example, to O2 generators or power plants of the station, but it'd be even less palatable for people who like turtle-paced 'explorashun'). Just imagine you could just slowly search for the key card to the janitor room, it'd kill all the suspense and tension.

Most people play games to have fun and escapism not to be subjected to obscure timer mechanics.

This is the way it is. People have always complained about fake urgency either if it was in Fallout, Dragon Age or Mooncrash.

Again: No one is talking about "obscure" or "hidden" timers, they're talking about explicit and obvious ones. Fallout and Mooncrash fundamentally differ in their approach to timers because:

A) One features a hidden timer (Fallout) and the other one doesn't (Mooncrash).

and

B) The expiration of one's timer (Fallout's) leads to a permanent Game Over and the other's (Mooncrash's) doesn't.

Honestly it seems like you have not played Mooncrash based on your arguments here.

 

[toro]

Exploration and time limits are antithetical: exploration works best when you can freely waste your time "exploring" the world which is very hard to do when the game is telling you to hurry up and you don't know the real level of urgency.

How so? The game world is persistent (apart from various environmental hazards / power/ transportation issues), you can explore to your hearts content within the time limits, going to another zone / changing exploratory strategies if it expired. Some people are just afraid of timers regardless of what they do and how they work, that's it, no rational explanation needed. Also, there's difference between goals-based exploration and mindless TES-like hiking (it'd be actually great if there were some sort of slow timer in the original game that was tied, for example, to O2 generators or power plants of the station, but it'd be even less palatable for people who like turtle-paced 'explorashun'). Just imagine you could just slowly search for the key card to the janitor room, it'd kill all the suspense and tension.

Most people play games to have fun and escapism not to be subjected to obscure timer mechanics.

This is the way it is. People have always complained about fake urgency either if it was in Fallout, Dragon Age or Mooncrash.

Again: No one is talking about "obscure" or "hidden" timers, they're talking about explicit and obvious ones. Fallout and Mooncrash fundamentally differ in their approach to timers because:

A) One features a hidden timer (Fallout) and the other one doesn't (Mooncrash).

and

B) The expiration of one's timer (Fallout's) leads to a permanent Game Over and the other's (Mooncrash's) doesn't.

Honestly it seems like you have not played Mooncrash based on your arguments here.

A) Fallout timer is well hidden.

B) I did not play Mooncrash because I don't like time constraints in a single player game but I did not complain or whine about it.

C) You seem completely oblivious to the link between timers and fake urgency.

https://googlethatforyou.com?q=false urgency

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Exploration and time limits are antithetical: exploration works best when you can freely waste your time "exploring" the world which is very hard to do when the game is telling you to hurry up and you don't know the real level of urgency.

How so? The game world is persistent (apart from various environmental hazards / power/ transportation issues), you can explore to your hearts content within the time limits, going to another zone / changing exploratory strategies if it expired. Some people are just afraid of timers regardless of what they do and how they work, that's it, no rational explanation needed. Also, there's difference between goals-based exploration and mindless TES-like hiking (it'd be actually great if there were some sort of slow timer in the original game that was tied, for example, to O2 generators or power plants of the station, but it'd be even less palatable for people who like turtle-paced 'explorashun'). Just imagine you could just slowly search for the key card to the janitor room, it'd kill all the suspense and tension.

Most people play games to have fun and escapism not to be subjected to obscure timer mechanics.

This is the way it is. People have always complained about fake urgency either if it was in Fallout, Dragon Age or Mooncrash.

Again: No one is talking about "obscure" or "hidden" timers, they're talking about explicit and obvious ones. Fallout and Mooncrash fundamentally differ in their approach to timers because:

A) One features a hidden timer (Fallout) and the other one doesn't (Mooncrash).

and

B) The expiration of one's timer (Fallout's) leads to a permanent Game Over and the other's (Mooncrash's) doesn't.

Honestly it seems like you have not played Mooncrash based on your arguments here.

A) Fallout timer is well hidden.

B) I did not play Mooncrash because I don't like time constraints in a single player game but I did not complain or whine about it.

C) You seem completely oblivious to the link between timers and fake urgency.

https://googlethatforyou.com?q=false urgency

...That’s not the only (or arguably even the main) timer in Fallout, and the others are hidden or misleading.

On the one hand I want to give you props for being man enough to admit you haven’t played Mooncrash, but you’re also just admitting that you have no context for the argument you’re participating in. Mooncrash’s timer is not reliant on or supportive of false urgency because it is pretty explicitly used as a means to facilitate and give meaning to the game’s progression mechanics, and unlike Fallout or Freddy Pharkas or whatever game with a timer traumatized you, it will never trap you in a fail state.

It’s not trying for urgency, false or real, it’s simply trying to create a systemic economy of choice (and to be perfectly frank it largely fails at that).

 

[toro]

Exploration and time limits are antithetical: exploration works best when you can freely waste your time "exploring" the world which is very hard to do when the game is telling you to hurry up and you don't know the real level of urgency.

How so? The game world is persistent (apart from various environmental hazards / power/ transportation issues), you can explore to your hearts content within the time limits, going to another zone / changing exploratory strategies if it expired. Some people are just afraid of timers regardless of what they do and how they work, that's it, no rational explanation needed. Also, there's difference between goals-based exploration and mindless TES-like hiking (it'd be actually great if there were some sort of slow timer in the original game that was tied, for example, to O2 generators or power plants of the station, but it'd be even less palatable for people who like turtle-paced 'explorashun'). Just imagine you could just slowly search for the key card to the janitor room, it'd kill all the suspense and tension.

Most people play games to have fun and escapism not to be subjected to obscure timer mechanics.

This is the way it is. People have always complained about fake urgency either if it was in Fallout, Dragon Age or Mooncrash.

Again: No one is talking about "obscure" or "hidden" timers, they're talking about explicit and obvious ones. Fallout and Mooncrash fundamentally differ in their approach to timers because:

A) One features a hidden timer (Fallout) and the other one doesn't (Mooncrash).

and

B) The expiration of one's timer (Fallout's) leads to a permanent Game Over and the other's (Mooncrash's) doesn't.

Honestly it seems like you have not played Mooncrash based on your arguments here.

A) Fallout timer is well hidden.

B) I did not play Mooncrash because I don't like time constraints in a single player game but I did not complain or whine about it.

C) You seem completely oblivious to the link between timers and fake urgency.

https://googlethatforyou.com?q=false urgency

...That’s not the only (or arguably even the main) timer in Fallout, and the others are hidden or misleading.

On the one hand I want to give you props for being man enough to admit you haven’t played Mooncrash, but you’re also just admitting that you have no context for the argument you’re participating in. Mooncrash’s timer is not reliant on or supportive of false urgency because it is pretty explicitly used as a means to facilitate and give meaning to the game’s progression mechanics, and unlike Fallout or Freddy Pharkas or whatever game with a timer traumatized you, it will never trap you in a fail state.

It’s not trying for urgency, false or real, it’s simply trying to create a systemic economy of choice (and to be perfectly frank it largely fails at that).

If I play Mooncrash then I will acquire the same context for the argument as you!?

Give me a break. Time limits don't appeal to many people. It looks like you have more issues with this fact than they have with the game.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

If I play Mooncrash then I will acquire the same context for the argument as you!?

Erm... yes? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that someone have first-hand knowledge of what they're arguing about if they want their argument to be taken seriously.

The subject we are arguing about is whether or not Deathloop would benefit from a timer mechanic, to which I say: (probably) yes, based on the pedigree (Mooncrash) of the studio, it would; Arkane have demonstrated that they understand how to make a timer work in concert with systemic progression mechanics in a roguelite. I'm in no way advocating for a timer to be included in all (or even most) games (I used Freddy Pharkas as an example earlier because the timer-sequence in that game nearly made me rage-microwave the CD when I first played it), but it is singularly suited to roguelites.

I also think I've been pretty upfront (here, and, much more verbosely, in the Prey thread) about Mooncrash being a deeply flawed game (albeit one that I see an immense amount of potential in). My suspicion is that the suits hamstringed the hell out of it, so I don't have much hope that the same won't happen to Deathloop, but it does seem like Arkane is interested in exploring untested areas of game/system design, and that is pretty exciting to me.

 

[toro]

If I play Mooncrash then I will acquire the same context for the argument as you!?

Erm... yes? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that someone have first-hand knowledge of what they're arguing about if they want their argument to be taken seriously.

Your most solid argument until now is that I did not play the DLC therefore my opinion is irrelevant.

The problem with your argument is that the original topic was not about my level of expertise in playing Prey.

The original point was that many people don't enjoy exploring under time constraints. It's just common sense.

Honestly the discussion is moot considering that you just ignore whatever the fuck I'm writing.

But let's see the opinion of other people:

https://steamcommunity.com/id/BlockGrylls/recommended/865670/

What made Prey great was the exploration, looting, and the narrative. This dlc removes all of that. There is barely any story. You can not freely explore because of the strict time limit. You can not loot freely because the world and its loot has to be shared across all characters. This dlc feels very shallow and bland.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/ThEDaRkCLaYMaN/recommended/865670/

Different from its big brother. Unfortunately it's also a far cry from it as well. Never been a fan of a game that rushes you AND puts you right back at the beginning! Can't recommend this game. Especially after playing the base game.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/aplesauce9231/recommended/865670/

Fire whoever thought it was a good idea to replay the same characters multiple times, added annoying side effects, and added a timer that discourages exploration.

All these people played the same game as you and they reached different conclusion. This is impossible according to you.

Please go to Steam and lecture those noobs about how to feel about the game.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

You can not freely explore because of the strict time limit.

This is incorrect. While the game does have a time limit, due to games structure not only you do have opportunity to explore the environment, you actually absolutely need to familiarize yourself with the environment pretty well in order to progress.

 

[Zombra]

The problem with your argument is that the original topic was not about my level of expertise in playing Prey.
The original point was that many people don't enjoy exploring under time constraints. It's just common sense.

No. The original question was whether time constraints are good for game design, not a fucking popularity contest. Go back to your Britney Spears albums.

 

[toro]

The problem with your argument is that the original topic was not about my level of expertise in playing Prey.
The original point was that many people don't enjoy exploring under time constraints. It's just common sense.

No. The original question was whether time constraints are good for game design, not a fucking popularity contest. Go back to your Britney Spears albums.

Yeah I've never understood the complaints about the timer in Mooncrash. I don't pretend to be particularly good at videogames, but it's such a softball timer that the only time I actually saw the maxed out corruption level was when I actively dicked around for 20 minutes because I wanted to see the timer fail-state.

Did you just had a big brain moment?

 

[toro]

You can not freely explore because of the strict time limit.

This is incorrect. While the game does have a time limit, due to games structure not only you do have opportunity to explore the environment, you actually absolutely need to familiarize yourself with the environment pretty well in order to progress.

Excellent drive-by posting.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

If I play Mooncrash then I will acquire the same context for the argument as you!?

Erm... yes? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that someone have first-hand knowledge of what they're arguing about if they want their argument to be taken seriously.

Your most solid argument until now is that I did not play the DLC therefore my opinion is irrelevant.

The problem with your argument is that the original topic was not about my level of expertise in playing Prey.

The original point was that many people don't enjoy exploring under time constraints. It's just common sense.

Honestly the discussion is moot considering that you just ignore whatever the fuck I'm writing.

But let's see the opinion of other people:

https://steamcommunity.com/id/BlockGrylls/recommended/865670/

What made Prey great was the exploration, looting, and the narrative. This dlc removes all of that. There is barely any story. You can not freely explore because of the strict time limit. You can not loot freely because the world and its loot has to be shared across all characters. This dlc feels very shallow and bland.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/ThEDaRkCLaYMaN/recommended/865670/

Different from its big brother. Unfortunately it's also a far cry from it as well. Never been a fan of a game that rushes you AND puts you right back at the beginning! Can't recommend this game. Especially after playing the base game.

https://steamcommunity.com/id/aplesauce9231/recommended/865670/

Fire whoever thought it was a good idea to replay the same characters multiple times, added annoying side effects, and added a timer that discourages exploration.

All these people played the same game as you and they reached different conclusion. This is impossible according to you.

Please go to Steam and lecture those noobs about how to feel about the game.

Nonsense. These people are just anxious normies objecting to the fact that Mooncrash, which is a roguelite, is a completely different genre from the base game, which is an immsim, they just lack the 'd vernacular to express it (I'm being a bit cheeky here, but I do think that's the core of their complaint).

For the record, I think that complaint is completely valid. It was undeniably a bit of a bait and switch to sell a roguelite DLC for an immsimm, and if you don't enjoy roguelites you have every to be pissed off, but from what I've seen Deathloop is being marketed fairly explicitly as a roguelite, which removes the optics problem.

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I'm just pushing back against the idea that timers=bad design, because, despite a huge amount of flaws, the presence of the timer (if not the execution) in Mooncrash was one of the things it got right, and its implementation was, as far as I know, completely unique to it. It's very easy to list examples of games with shit timer mechanics -I would include Fallout in this btw (although I'm currently in some hot water over in GRPG atm after making some half-thought-through incendiary posts on Fallout, so perhaps I should just let sleeping dogs lie)- but just because something has been historically poorly implemented does not necessarily mean it is inherently shit.

 

[Daemongar]

Well, I looked through the first 13 pages of this because this isn't my genre but it seems like an obvious question:

Do games not have any physics any more? No kickback on sniper rifles, no bouncing on machine guns, no weight to belt fed gigantic machine guns fired by 103 lb women? As interesting as this looks (dishonored with machine guns) I kinda stopped when I saw here toting a sniper rifle as big as her and when I saw this (and more.)

Does the game at least say "Well, she's magical and so are the guns!" or is it just assumed nobody cares? Also, she's staring down the barrel like she's going to unload 100 rounds in a little point right down the barrel?!

 

[:Flash:]

I don't know anything about this game, but the title sounds like a futuristic racing game from the 90s with techno soundtrack (which made me click this thread).

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

New screenshots:
https://www.gameinformer.com/2021/03/10/exclusive-deathloop-screenshot-gallery

 

[rusty_shackleford]

what's wrong with timers?

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

what's wrong with timers?

They might impose meaningful penalties and intelligent management/prioritization of resources; 21st century gamers cannot handle that.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Zombra I’m being flippant, but I am being largely serious in that argument. Mooncrash is kind of a case in point, because it’s an example of a timer pretty explicitly not doing the former, but trying (and I think failing) to do the latter, and it resulted in some unique (albeit flawed) design. The irony of player reaction to Mooncrash was that a ton of people perceived the timer as artificial difficulty/exploration constraints (which it’s really not), and decried the moderate emphasis on resource prioritization as shit design.

 

[Kaivokz]

Mooncrash is geat. Timer has explicit in-game rationale and contributes to the gameplay loop. Achieving your objectives before the simulation breaks down is a fun test.

I'm mixed on Arkane though. Loved M&M Dark Messiah and Prey. Dishonored is only okay, would have been better if they made it a straight combat game like Dark Messiah instead of creating a pretty cool melee system and then incentivizing you not to use it. Youngblood looked like buggy hot trash that I didn't touch. Will wait for reviews before buying Deathloop.

 

[JDR13]

Mooncrash is geat. Timer has explicit in-game rationale and contributes to the gameplay loop. Achieving your objectives before the simulation breaks down is a fun test.

I'm mixed on Arkane though. Loved M&M Dark Messiah and Prey. Dishonored is only okay, would have been better if they made it a straight combat game like Dark Messiah instead of creating a pretty cool melee system and then incentivizing you not to use it. Youngblood looked like buggy hot trash that I didn't touch. Will wait for reviews before buying Deathloop.

I think people tend to remember Dark Messiah with rose tinted glasses. I replayed it last year for the first time in close to a decade, and it wasn't nearly as good as I thought I remembered it. Tbh, Dishonored is a better game by far.

As far as Youngblood is concerned, I think Arkane just had some input on the level design. Afaik, MachineGames was still the primary developer.

 

[Trithne]

I remember seeing somewhere that Deathloop doesn't even have a "timer" in the traditional sense of it, the sort that all the bitching is about. It just has a nebulous "24 hours", and moving between areas of the island (essentially the game's zones) costs X hours to do, but inside a zone time is functionally frozen.

 

[Siel]

 

[Great Deceiver]

Not keeping up with this thing but that's a pretty blatant self-insert innit?