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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Mangoose

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YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
 
Last edited:

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
That is the attacker. The defender falls over, and that is how a Tripper can stop charges and the like.
 

Mangoose

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Messages
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
That is the attacker. The defender falls over, and that is how a Tripper can stop charges and the like.
No, that's both. Did you not read the link? d20pfsrd has ALL the rules, including 3rd party shit.

But, seriously, this is a question they put in a sidebox because it's THAT much of a FAQ

If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don’t have to use a weapon with the trip special feature–you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don’t have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Secondly, no, you're not literally stopping them. You're making them decide whether or not to risk losing health as a trade-off to get past you. That puts them at a disadvantage when it's your turn, because you have a second line. Unless they have a Pounce, they can't Full Attack you at all if they move more than 5ft. If you're tripping, then you're losing the advantage of that threat. You're playing too literally. The enemy has to make decisions just the same as you do.
 
Last edited:

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/

Again, you're speaking about tabletop, while this thread is dedicated to the computer game...
Things you mention are not implemented.
 

Mangoose

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Messages
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/

Again, you're speaking about tabletop, while this thread is dedicated to the computer game...
Things you mention are not implemented.
Well, go fail a CMB trip by more than 10 and come back to me. I'm too lazy to test lol. But what I've noticed is most things are implemented except for the difficult stuff (e.g. no Kinetic Whip because most likely they didn't have the time budget to animate a Whip weapon in the first place).
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
That is the attacker. The defender falls over, and that is how a Tripper can stop charges and the like.
No, that's both. Did you not read the link? d20pfsrd has ALL the rules, including 3rd party shit.

But, seriously, this is a question they put in a sidebox because it's THAT much of a FAQ

If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don’t have to use a weapon with the trip special feature–you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don’t have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Secondly, no, you're not literally stopping them. You're making them decide whether or not to risk losing health as a trade-off to get past you. That puts them at a disadvantage when it's your turn, because you have a second line. Unless they have a Pounce, they can't Full Attack you at all if they move more than 5ft. If you're tripping, then you're losing the advantage of that threat. You're playing too literally. The enemy has to make decisions just the same as you do.
Your reading comprehension needs work. What you quoted specifically addresses the attacker and only the attacker.

If someone charges you and generates a AoO because he runs through your threatened area, you can elect to trip the guy as your attack. If you win the opposed roll, he falls prone. End of charge. If you fail the opposed roll, he can trip you instead. That was always in the rules, even in 3.5.

What PF added was that you can use non-trip labelled weapons (which 3.5 didn't allow). That and the lose by 10 CMB thing, whereas in 3.5, it was just a straight opposed roll, IIRC.
 

Mangoose

Arcane
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
That is the attacker. The defender falls over, and that is how a Tripper can stop charges and the like.
No, that's both. Did you not read the link? d20pfsrd has ALL the rules, including 3rd party shit.

But, seriously, this is a question they put in a sidebox because it's THAT much of a FAQ

If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don’t have to use a weapon with the trip special feature–you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don’t have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Secondly, no, you're not literally stopping them. You're making them decide whether or not to risk losing health as a trade-off to get past you. That puts them at a disadvantage when it's your turn, because you have a second line. Unless they have a Pounce, they can't Full Attack you at all if they move more than 5ft. If you're tripping, then you're losing the advantage of that threat. You're playing too literally. The enemy has to make decisions just the same as you do.
Your reading comprehension needs work. What you quoted specifically addresses the attacker and only the attacker.
Lul I thought that was the question.

And yes. You can stop them. But you're not trying to stop them. You're trying to kill them. I'd be happy if they ran past me, lost health, and then I kill them on my turn.
 

Mangoose

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I'd be happy if they ran past me, lost health, and then I kill them on my turn.
The squishies behind you wouldn't be very happy though.
What are you talking about? The "squishies" behind me have melee weapons ready to kick their ass. That comes from either a versatile character (which, again, you have to balance versatility with power)... and also by simple positioning. Not all your guys are squishies.

Don't play a pitched battle. Napoleon and WWI taught you that.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
What are you talking about? The "squishies" behind me have melee weapons ready to kick their ass. That comes from either a versatile character (which, again, you have to balance versatility with power)... and also by simple positioning. Not all your guys are squishies.

Don't play a pitched battle. Napoleon and WWI taught you that.
The fuck? Don't you have a Wizard in your party? An Alchemist? A Bard? Is the sum total of your tactics charging with a party of full martials and hitting them until they die?
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
That is the attacker. The defender falls over, and that is how a Tripper can stop charges and the like.
No, that's both. Did you not read the link? d20pfsrd has ALL the rules, including 3rd party shit.

But, seriously, this is a question they put in a sidebox because it's THAT much of a FAQ

If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don’t have to use a weapon with the trip special feature–you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don’t have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Secondly, no, you're not literally stopping them. You're making them decide whether or not to risk losing health as a trade-off to get past you. That puts them at a disadvantage when it's your turn, because you have a second line. Unless they have a Pounce, they can't Full Attack you at all if they move more than 5ft. If you're tripping, then you're losing the advantage of that threat. You're playing too literally. The enemy has to make decisions just the same as you do.
Your reading comprehension needs work. What you quoted specifically addresses the attacker and only the attacker.
Lul I thought that was the question.

And yes. You can stop them. But you're not trying to stop them. You're trying to kill them. I'd be happy if they ran past me, lost health, and then I kill them on my turn.
The point of a Chain Gun Tripper is that that is your primary form of attack. With Improved Trip, every time you trip a guy, you get a free attack. And it is called a Chain Gun Tripper because it has a LOT of AoO.

Remember, if he declared a charge, he can't do anything any more for that round. If it was a regular move, he now only has a standard action left, and if he tries to get up using that action, he generates AoO. You can't trip him on his AoO (since he is already prone), but you can whack him normally.

The whole idea of a Chain Gun Tripper is to immobilise anyone within your threatened area. Control the battlefield. Reduce the threat.

A Chain Gun Tripper backed up by a god-style Wizard is a nasty combo.
 

Jackpot

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If you're going to abuse broken game mechanics you might aswell lower the difficulty, you know...

I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.

Why would you play such a beautiful game in such a miserable way? Usually, I try to have fun while playing and that sounds the opposite of fun.

Like I said, I only used it for a handful of encounters because I was almost done with an area but my team was too battered to move forward without a complete rest.
Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.
 

Cael

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If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.
WRONG!

You are not a guy with 6 classes. You are just a guy with the abilities represented by those class levels.

You are not a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue. You are Conan.
 

Xamenos

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I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.
Neither of those things is necessary though, even on Unfair.

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.
That's not necessary either. You should either accept the higher difficulties aren't for you, or try to git gud.
 

Mangoose

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What are you talking about? The "squishies" behind me have melee weapons ready to kick their ass. That comes from either a versatile character (which, again, you have to balance versatility with power)... and also by simple positioning. Not all your guys are squishies.

Don't play a pitched battle. Napoleon and WWI taught you that.
The fuck? Don't you have a Wizard in your party? An Alchemist? A Bard? Is the sum total of your tactics charging with a party of full martials and hitting them until they die?
What? No. Typically I isolate and double team. Sometimes I want them to come to the squishy. Gets them away from theirs. The guy with the reach weapon... Is a level 14 Oracle with 1 dash of Fighter.

Another option is to put your squishies just far enough away that they can't hit you. They can't Full Attack anyway, besides a few archetypes.

Or you could have one more non-sqiushy behind your reach character but in front of your squishies.

C'mon. You know how far they can move. Take advantage.
 

Mangoose

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YES Keen Scimitar lol now I'll just put my arcana on Fire+Shock+Frost jk

Edit: Holy shit, finally a magical Fauchard. Yes, indeed I do trip. The hilarious thing about Battle Mystery is that the Revelations are: Maneuver Mastery of your choice, Proficiency in armor/weapons, a Pounce... and Wall of Fire. This is Valerie btw (Fighter 1/Oracle 8). And I've actually always used her as fauchard+combat reflexes board control. THEN I get Wall of Fire. And as she levels, my maneuvers go all the way up. So I can also charge with a trip maneuver and then AoO when they fall. At reach. With a crit range of 18-20.

The surprising thing is that's where "Wall of Fire"* comes from. I mean, there aren't really any Spells or SLA in Battle Mystery. Mostly just martial stuff, as mentioned above, another Revelation was boosting initiative. And then I guess Stoneskin Revelation counts as SLA.

Battle is a really good Mystery for melee+control Oracle. And if you want to do melee+anticaster, Dragon Mystery does that. I had to think to pick between the two, though, because control and anticaster were my mutually exclusive choices. On a serious note I think that's pretty good design to have two "roles" in each Mystery, a little versatility.

Mmmm. and then I'm giving Jaethal "Reaping Stalker" next level. It increases the damage of a Scythe or Sickle as if you went up a larger size but no other penalties. So it's nice flavor. Thing is... the Scythe is also a Trip weapon.

Cool but... that's Kingmaker the computer game, not Pathfinder tabletop.
Scythes have no advantage to tripping here. Unless CotW gave them something?

Fauchards on the other hand... yeah, Owlcat gave the uniques some cool abilities related to Combat Maneuvers. Wait till you see the Mastery fauchard.

Still, you trip in close combat range, can't trip at weapon's reach (size increases do help, though)
Well, the only thing a Tripping weapon does in PNP and here is that you don't fall prone if you fail by (checking) 10 or more on the CMB (you drop the weapon instead). Tripping weapons tbh have no advantage besides that. (It's actually listed in a sidebox as a FAQ)

Not sure what you mean. With a reach weapon I actually cannot attack enemies adjacent to me, I can attack only enemies at reach. Include AoOs. That's the disadvantage of (non-natural) reach. The advantage is being able to threaten at longer range. Of course if you have room you just do the 5 ft step stance but if you've got a smart DM I guess it could get pretty tactical.

But if you have a reach weapon the main purpose is to threaten AoOs (with Combat Reflexes) on THEIR turn. THAT is how you play "battlefield control" with a reach weapon (or any weapon). It's not about your turn. It's about theirs. You position yourself. They then have to decide whether to risk it.

I mean.. the rules are all right here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/
That is the attacker. The defender falls over, and that is how a Tripper can stop charges and the like.
No, that's both. Did you not read the link? d20pfsrd has ALL the rules, including 3rd party shit.

But, seriously, this is a question they put in a sidebox because it's THAT much of a FAQ

If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don’t have to use a weapon with the trip special feature–you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don’t have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Secondly, no, you're not literally stopping them. You're making them decide whether or not to risk losing health as a trade-off to get past you. That puts them at a disadvantage when it's your turn, because you have a second line. Unless they have a Pounce, they can't Full Attack you at all if they move more than 5ft. If you're tripping, then you're losing the advantage of that threat. You're playing too literally. The enemy has to make decisions just the same as you do.
Your reading comprehension needs work. What you quoted specifically addresses the attacker and only the attacker.
Lul I thought that was the question.

And yes. You can stop them. But you're not trying to stop them. You're trying to kill them. I'd be happy if they ran past me, lost health, and then I kill them on my turn.
The point of a Chain Gun Tripper is that that is your primary form of attack. With Improved Trip, every time you trip a guy, you get a free attack. And it is called a Chain Gun Tripper because it has a LOT of AoO.

Remember, if he declared a charge, he can't do anything any more for that round. If it was a regular move, he now only has a standard action left, and if he tries to get up using that action, he generates AoO. You can't trip him on his AoO (since he is already prone), but you can whack him normally.

The whole idea of a Chain Gun Tripper is to immobilise anyone within your threatened area. Control the battlefield. Reduce the threat.

A Chain Gun Tripper backed up by a god-style Wizard is a nasty combo.
Yeah but now you have limited your tactical options. There are a lot more things you can do than that, but not if you pigeonhole your build. No fight's ever the same.

Edit: I mean, yeah, this isn't some hardcore AI where I need to do this.

But it's goddamn fun to be creative on the battlefield.
 
Last edited:

Jackpot

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I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.
Neither of those things is necessary though, even on Unfair.

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.
That's not necessary either. You should either accept the higher difficulties aren't for you, or try to git gud.

Sure, it isn't necessary, but then, nothing in the game 100% is. It isn't necessary to use magic in the game at all. It isn't necessary to wear armor. It isn't necessary to use any consumable items.
If anything this tactic is strategically superior - it doesn't use any resources, keeps your party healthy, and doesn't use up the time resting does.
Ultimately the only reason I did it is because of the game's timelimit. I wasn't sure if there was always some background time limit that I wasn't aware of, or I worried that if I wasted too much time resting I would put myself in too much of a hole with Kingdom Management and have to restart.
And hey, I caught up on some TV while I was doing it, so it was actually pretty fun.
 

cloudropis

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New guy here, I started following ineffect's guides because I never played PF and am rusty in 3.5, then I realized he was some epic only the last 5 hours of endgame matters RPG guy (even name searched him in this thread and got confirmation) and switched to roahin's templates. I still feel like I'm fumbling in the dark and I'd like some pointers on a couple of companion builds.
Amiri, I gave her Vivi 1, yes yes ineffect splash but I don't regret it due to mutagen and some sneak attacks decisively closing fights. 1 THF because I wanted to eventually pump her up of feats like the Cleave line, no pets or anything druidic. Now I see freebooter has some great aoe buffs and people generally only put 10 levels in it, can I start that or am I too late by virtue of having splahed around too much already? If yes, can I go FB 10, put the rest in THF, maybe another one in barbarian for uncanny dodge?
Regongar, I'm already playing his dex scion build for my baron and I feel that his BnB ES/DD build overlaps too much, although having another tank that isn't Baron/Valerie/Harrimlol is appreciated. I see Desiderius mentioned making him a thundercall bard, or a feyspeaker, can anyone elaborate on those? What makes him good in these classes? I'm only ES 3, I'm willing to go with anything, as long as it's fun and doesn't feel like I'm running another MC in my team. Tank leaning would be appreciated

I'm playing on Challenging, possibly raising it higher past the low level curve. Btw I dunno if it's the benefit of playing a patched game in turn based, but what the fuck was wrong with people on release? ToEE was much harder than this
 

Mangoose

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I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.
Neither of those things is necessary though, even on Unfair.

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.
That's not necessary either. You should either accept the higher difficulties aren't for you, or try to git gud.

Sure, it isn't necessary, but then, nothing in the game 100% is. It isn't necessary to use magic in the game at all. It isn't necessary to wear armor. It isn't necessary to use any consumable items.
If anything this tactic is strategically superior - it doesn't use any resources, keeps your party healthy, and doesn't use up the time resting does.
Ultimately the only reason I did it is because of the game's timelimit. I wasn't sure if there was always some background time limit that I wasn't aware of, or I worried that if I wasted too much time resting I would put myself in too much of a hole with Kingdom Management and have to restart.
And hey, I caught up on some TV while I was doing it, so it was actually pretty fun.
Pretty much this.

And before anyone brings up Kingmaker AI... From the posts I've read, it's hit or miss because Holic doesn't have time to QA. Yes, it's a Holic mod. Just like Favored Class. And Proper Flanking 2.
 

Mangoose

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Talking about AI keeps bringing me back to Sword Coast Strategems for BG1/2. It's ridiculously creative, it's not even about the coding the way they do it.

https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/readme-stratagems.html

They simply limit what the AI does. For example, this is the general difficulty settings for Mages:

The main difficulty setting for mages has these effects:

  • BASIC: Mages have fairly limited intelligence; they will renew their defenses periodically and to some extent avoid really unwise uses of their magic, but no more. They use only defensive sequencers and contingencies.
  • IMPROVED: Mages use their spells intelligently, choosing the most appropriate targets and paying careful attention to their own magical defenses. They will mostly refrain from using offensive sequencers and contingencies.
  • TACTICAL: Mages now also use offensive sequencers and contingencies. They have some chance of sensing the presence of invisible opponents and using divination to reveal them.
  • HARDCORE and above: Mages capable of casting it will normally use Melf's Minute Meteors (and similar spells) between casting spells.

That's literally it. Some changes in probability. And it fucking matters if they prebuff or not. I'm impressed.. and tbh I have no idea why nobody else has picked up on it.

Read it and weep how no game designer has picked this up. And that the guys behind this haven't been hired... As they are still working on it right now. So over a decade haha

Edit: ...And I'm not good enough at RTWP to do more than Improved. (Normal = Core difficulty, but even then.. it's about them being smarter than me)
 

Parabalus

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Talking about AI keeps bringing me back to Sword Coast Strategems for BG1/2. It's ridiculously creative, it's not even about the coding the way they do it.

https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/readme-stratagems.html

They simply limit what the AI does. For example, this is the general difficulty settings for Mages:

The main difficulty setting for mages has these effects:

  • BASIC: Mages have fairly limited intelligence; they will renew their defenses periodically and to some extent avoid really unwise uses of their magic, but no more. They use only defensive sequencers and contingencies.
  • IMPROVED: Mages use their spells intelligently, choosing the most appropriate targets and paying careful attention to their own magical defenses. They will mostly refrain from using offensive sequencers and contingencies.
  • TACTICAL: Mages now also use offensive sequencers and contingencies. They have some chance of sensing the presence of invisible opponents and using divination to reveal them.
  • HARDCORE and above: Mages capable of casting it will normally use Melf's Minute Meteors (and similar spells) between casting spells.

That's literally it. Some changes in probability. And it fucking matters if they prebuff or not. I'm impressed.. and tbh I have no idea why nobody else has picked up on it.

Read it and weep how no game designer has picked this up. And that the guys behind this haven't been hired... As they are still working on it right now. So over a decade haha

Edit: ...And I'm not good enough at RTWP to do more than Improved. (Normal = Core difficulty, but even then.. it's about them being smarter than me)

The prebuffing of non-mages and giving potions to everyone is stat bloating with extra steps.

The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.
E.g. the enemy AI magically knowing that you are stealthed and casting True Sight, which you can work around by stacking haste on the backstabber etc.

Great mod though.
 

Shadenuat

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fallen deva is RU))) tactics mod I think, not SCS
although there are some parts of one integrated into another like optional bodhi
 

hell bovine

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The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.
That was the Tactics mod, old man. ;)

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.
 

Mangoose

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The higher difficulties are a bit cheesy as well, you have enemy fallen deva summons in the starting dungeon.
That was the Tactics mod, old man. ;)

Default SCS has just improved duergar in the starting dungeon. I'm not sure if improved Illyich is incorporated into SCS, but that was a joke encounter even in Tactics.
Nah they, well, may have changed it over the decades, but that set of difficulties is how they deal with the AI part.

The improved creatures/encounters aren't what I'm thinking about.

I played EET recently which means I had to spend a few weeks deciding which mod and which options. SO I KNOW THINGS>
 

Mangoose

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I don't think that's abusing the game mechanics at all.
If anything sending in an undead companion to kill the enemy through attrition because they literally can't die makes more sense to the game's world than dipping characters into 6+ different classes or completely changing the classes of companions.
Neither of those things is necessary though, even on Unfair.

Besides, the game on higher difficulties is miserable anyway. If you aren't wasting time with this then you're wasting time restarting to perfect builds or figuring out which encounters you can do at your level.
That's not necessary either. You should either accept the higher difficulties aren't for you, or try to git gud.

Sure, it isn't necessary, but then, nothing in the game 100% is. It isn't necessary to use magic in the game at all. It isn't necessary to wear armor. It isn't necessary to use any consumable items.
If anything this tactic is strategically superior - it doesn't use any resources, keeps your party healthy, and doesn't use up the time resting does.
Ultimately the only reason I did it is because of the game's timelimit. I wasn't sure if there was always some background time limit that I wasn't aware of, or I worried that if I wasted too much time resting I would put myself in too much of a hole with Kingdom Management and have to restart.
And hey, I caught up on some TV while I was doing it, so it was actually pretty fun.
I was laughing about your line at the end but actually that's very true, at least with Vancian magic. Resource management. That's actually my weakness. I just fought three random encounters with swarms of goblins. I was like.. fuck this.. lemme throw a Fireball and end it. Obviously. That is not a smart move outside the "tactical level." Fuck logistics.
 

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