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On "Speech" skill

Should "Speech" skills remain in their current forms?


  • Total voters
    52

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
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In Arcanum it's interesting as you need to have enough Persuasion skill to convince someone, but... you still have to steer the conversation the right direction. Two early examples are Ristezze and asking about the ring, where you have to smooth-talk him (pretend that he is the most amazing person in the world) and thieves at the bridge (where you have to convince them you are a fellow thief and avoid insulting them). It's not a win-button, as you still have to use logic to make the right choices (though it's not too demanding).

And nothing in the dialogue itself ever indicated that... it's just simple logic that, of course, being more intelligent gives you smarter responses.
And even then, you still had to look at the dialogue options and think about them. You had to find out what the best way of convincing people was, instead of the game just tossing you the [SPEECH] option on a silver platter.
Just like how you have to determine the best tactics for dealing with an enemy, even when your character's combat skills are at the max. Combat doesn't hand you the best tactical solution on a silver platter with highlighted hints either. Imagine how idiotic it would look if the game, during every combat, highlighted the optimal tile to position your character in during every turn.
So why should dialogues highlight the optimal choice?
EXACTLY what I mean. This system is a relatively small improvement to what we have in most RPGs, but it is clearly vastly superior. Imagine how interesting conversations could be if developers would put real effort and money into innovating and improving in this aspect of RPGs as much as they do with combat systems.

It can't be fixed if persuasion Is resolved with only a single dialogue choice.
Persuasion should have many dialogues each one give some points. Knowledge of the matter and speech skill should just make easier gathering those points but consistency inside the dialogue and with your actions should matter too for example of you can have a charming line about human rights but if you sided with Legion or if you used a pragmatic dialogue choice talking with the same character before you will fail.
An example Is talking with judge Edmonds in Suzerain. If you went to law university you have special dialogue options but they will help you and not results in autowin.
Judge Edmonds, please, we need a better democracy (seriously, that's what giving me lifelong immunity is for). This is yet another example of how barebones dialogue systems remain in most modern games, when such a slight thing is so noticeable. Even if you're a ruthless slaver, your Speech skill will allow you to preach peace and love and nobody bats an eye. It's kind of immersive sim-y to have your actions in the wider world affect how people respond to various attempts at parlay or persuasion. For example, in DE:HR you can slaughter your way through chinese gangsters and all the difference in dialogue as opposed to ghosting the level is one line of dialogue from the mob boss at the start of the conversation. RPGs should let such gameplay decisions affect conversations. If you massacred his men, he won't be responsive to a peaceable solution, but might instead be cowed with aggressive dialogue options (that wouldn't have otherwise worked, seeing as he has an entire armed gang behind him).

And before someone asks - I am talking about adding rolls in a conversation, because it's not much different from having rolls during combat.
Soo, what you're saying is the same dialogue option selected by a character with identical skills could randomly succeed or fail? Players would just be irritated by that and would resort to savescumming.

Yes, because academics are such charismatic speakers... you're mixing up "speech" with "knowledge" or "lore".
Academics often aren't charismatic, but you can't dismiss someone's persuasion attempt just because he's knowledgeable about something. Like STR can determine how much force is behind your sword swing, so could a CHA stat decide how convincingly PC is able to voice his thoughts. But just as you select who to swing your sword at, so should you be choosing what thoughts to voice. A different combination of CHA, your character's skills relating to the topic of conversation and your choices could lead to different results in convincing people. As it is, your character could be a complete moron with lowest possible stats, who doesn't know jack shit about anything, but he does a force hand wave, checks for speech and "wins" the conversation.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
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Soo, what you're saying is the same dialogue option selected by a character with identical skills could randomly succeed or fail? Players would just be irritated by that and would resort to savescumming.
...provided there are no other modifiers - yes. Such is the nature of the rolls.

Would people save scum? Let them. Some Many A LOT of people will save scum, for various reasons. Others will go with the flow or pick ironman for the extra challenge. I usually go for ironman, unless the game is buggy, in which case go for "soft ironman" (only reload when some game-crippling bug happens). There is also something to be said for "I don't want to start all over gain because I died in combat" scenarios, where reloading is perfectly understandable as otherwise it's a massive waste of time.

The bottom line is: if you think your choices should matter, then it's up to you to stick with them (and their consequences, which includes failures). But if save scumming makes you happy, for whatever reason, why should anybody be bothered by it? It's your game after all and your choice.
 

JarlFrank

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It can't be fixed if persuasion Is resolved with only a single dialogue choice.
Persuasion should have many dialogues each one give some points. Knowledge of the matter and speech skill should just make easier gathering those points but consistency inside the dialogue and with your actions should matter too for example of you can have a charming line about human rights but if you sided with Legion or if you used a pragmatic dialogue choice talking with the same character before you will fail.
An example Is talking with judge Edmonds in Suzerain. If you went to law university you have special dialogue options but they will help you and not results in autowin.
Judge Edmonds, please, we need a better democracy (seriously, that's what giving me lifelong immunity is for). This is yet another example of how barebones dialogue systems remain in most modern games, when such a slight thing is so noticeable. Even if you're a ruthless slaver, your Speech skill will allow you to preach peace and love and nobody bats an eye. It's kind of immersive sim-y to have your actions in the wider world affect how people respond to various attempts at parlay or persuasion. For example, in DE:HR you can slaughter your way through chinese gangsters and all the difference in dialogue as opposed to ghosting the level is one line of dialogue from the mob boss at the start of the conversation. RPGs should let such gameplay decisions affect conversations. If you massacred his men, he won't be responsive to a peaceable solution, but might instead be cowed with aggressive dialogue options (that wouldn't have otherwise worked, seeing as he has an entire armed gang behind him).

The way I'd do most quest-related dialogues that matter is to let the player use info he learned before, and the skill just adds to the check or increases your chances of success. The more stuff you have collected the better, but some information might actually harm your case so you shouldn't blather it out.

A quest where you gotta frame a guy of murder, for example, and you got some circumstantial evidence pointing his way. You reveal that evidence and your accusation becomes more credible.
But if you have also gathered proof of his innocence, giving that evidence to the jury would fuck your case.
Having a good skill at bluffing would allow you to make your fabricated evidence look stronger than it is.
There'd be a hidden counter counting the pros and cons of your arguments and if the total value is 5 or above, you win the case. 5 = the jury mostly believes you, 7 = the jury believes you pretty decently, 10 = they believe you without a doubt and consider the guy you framed to be proven 100% guilty.
Degrees of success are something that's missing in most dialogue checks, too. It's either a YES or a NO. There are no in-betweens. But it would be much more interesting in some dialogue-heavy quests to have stages like "NPC is convinced but still suspicious towards you", "NPC doesn't believe you but still thinks you're an okay dude", "NPC fully believes you and is on your side" etc, and those stages can in turn influnence later quests involving that NPC.
 

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
Joined
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There is also something to be said for "I don't want to start all over gain because I died in combat" scenarios, where reloading is perfectly understandable as otherwise it's a massive waste of time.

The bottom line is: if you think your choices should matter, then it's up to you to stick with them (and their consequences, which includes failures). But if save scumming makes you happy, for whatever reason, why should anybody be bothered by it? It's your game after all and your choice.
You're contradicting yourself here. Reloading after a death in combat is the same "not sticking to your choices (and their consequences, which includes failures)" as reloading after a failed dialogue, yet you say it is acceptable in the former case. Allowing player to fail an entire conversation based on nothing but a percentage roll is a waste of time also and players will treat it as such. My opinion is that such a mechanic would be worthless, as it adds nothing to the depth of the dialogue system and only causes frustration.
 

Harthwain

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You're contradicting yourself here. Reloading after a death in combat is the same "not sticking to your choices (and their consequences, which includes failures)" as reloading after a failed dialogue, yet you say it is acceptable in the former case. Allowing player to fail an entire conversation based on nothing but a percentage roll is a waste of time also and players will treat it as such.
Assuming the failure state is binary? Yes - under such circumstances it will be a waste of time, I agree. But if the game can make a failure into an interesting game state (not just "the quest is over, you are locked out of your reward"), I'd wager more people would be willing to stick with it. Disco Elysium does exactly something like this, which is precisely why I felt fine when I failed a check here and there. In one case I actually got the result I wanted, because I FAILED the check!

In terms of combat this gets more difficult, because death usually means Game Over. You can make an RPG-roguelike, where the "game over" result is an integral part of the experience (Neo Scavenger does this fairly well, for example), but how many games offer the player something like this? And replaying the whole parts of a game - with lots of combat - just because you failed to properly asses difficulty of a fight quickly becomes pointless, especially when the game has no real "moving parts" so to speak. You're basically redoing everything the same way, with no changes whatsoever. Is that really fun or meaningful?
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
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always failed one particular persuasion quest despite being high in persuasion and got frustrated, so I read about it in an online walkthrough/FAQ on gamefaqs.
Turns out the optimal responses for that quest only appear when your INT is high enough, and I only focused on charisma and the persuasion skill.
And my 12 year old mind was blown by how awesome this game is for doing that.
Underrail does that sometimes. E.G., to talk with Yngwar you need at least 8 INT or replies would not appear.

Also, speaking of your other example with "framing the guy", Underrail has one quest that is very similar in spirit to that: that Oculus quest where you need to find out who killed guy's brother.

Also, what do people here think about Ferryman dialogue in Expedition? Overall, Underrail has very solid dialogue mechanics, it's just that they play secondary role in this combat-heavy game: there are Persuasion, Intimidation and Mercantile; other skills and stats are commonly used as well, as well as some items and collected information.
 

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
Joined
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Also, what do people here think about Ferryman dialogue in Expedition? Overall, Underrail has very solid dialogue mechanics, it's just that they play secondary role in this combat-heavy game: there are Persuasion, Intimidation and Mercantile; other skills and stats are commonly used as well, as well as some items and collected information.
That old mofo just fucking won't debate descent to the center with me, even though I'm like super smart. In all seriousness, I found his dialogue boring. Like most philosophy it seemed to be unfounded drivel masquerading as something insightful. But then maybe I haven't read into it properly.
 

JarlFrank

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In terms of combat this gets more difficult, because death usually means Game Over.

You approach this question with the assumption that death is the only outcome for combat.

But there are many other possible outcomes. There are lots of RPGs where you have a scripted "you lose a fight and get captured" scene. JRPGs love to do this in particular, but plenty of western RPGs have such a scene too. Usually the fight is impossible so you HAVE to lose and get captured. It is also the only fight in the game where that happens.

Why not make this a bit more universal? Depending on which group you fight, losing might not result in death, but merely unconsciousness (D&D already provides us with a good basis for this: characters are not dead until they hit -10 HP, they only lose consciousness and are bleeding out at 0) or surrender. Sure, a pack of rabid wolves is probably gonna eat you. But maybe you can sacrifice a companion and crawl away. Maybe add some kind of skillcheck to it, and base the likelihood of the wolves caring on how accessible your meat is (the wizard who only wears a robe is easier to eat than the knight in plate armor) and how tasty you are (maybe dwarf meat tastes horrible). Leads to a cool "Wolves managed to beat me down but I left my companion behind and crawled away while they ate his corpse" story.

With human enemies, it becomes even easier. Bandits fight you. They beat you down until you're almost dead. Then one of them offers you the chance to surrender. If you accept, they take all your shit but let you live. You can make non-combat skills count here too: if the character you play is an agile dancer chick with high sleight of hand, she can easily hide that valuable magic amulet in her cleavage, where the bandits won't look cause they don't wanna come across as pervs.

The most obvious place for non-lethal combat is the arena. There's plenty of INCLINE games that have arenas: Age of Decadence and Underrail come to mind. Both of these have arena fights end in death... even though the gladiators are big name dudes who have several victories under their belts and probably have major fan clubs. And both games are set in post-apocalyptic worlds with low population density. If every arena fight ends in death for one fighter, no exception, they're gonna run out of fighters at some point... and they will keep losing the best guys just because they had an unlucky day, which will likely cause their fans to stop attending arena fights cause that one fight was TOTAL BULLSHIT BOOOOO.
Instead, arena fights should be about injuring the other guy until he surrenders. Like it was in ancient Rome. There, gladiators had fan clubs, they had rivalries with other gladiators, they'd get re-matches against the same guy... fights were sometimes lethal but usually not. Most of the time gladiators surrendered when wounded, and as long as they put up a good show, they were allowed to live (the whole "Emperor condemns losing gladiator to death" meme we see a lot in sword and sandal movies happened rarely, especially when it comes to veteran gladiators).
This would work especially well in a ruleset with a wound system instead of pure HP bar reduction. It would also allow for some interesting non-combat quests in the arena instead of turning it into a linear sequence of progressively harder fights: you can form friendships and rivalries with other gladiators, you can do quests like "pls put this weakening posion into my rival's water so I can beat him more easily in our next fight" with consequences like the gladiator found out you poisoned his water and beats you up in a dark alley at night as a warning.

Add alternate outcomes to combat than the binary "either side A dies or side B dies" and you've got a whole lot of new possibilities.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
But there are many other possible outcomes. There are lots of RPGs where you have a scripted "you lose a fight and get captured" scene. JRPGs love to do this in particular, but plenty of western RPGs have such a scene too. Usually the fight is impossible so you HAVE to lose and get captured. It is also the only fight in the game where that happens.
iirc mount and blade has you get captured, held prisoner, and potentially ransomed if you lose a fight
in outward when you lose all your HP a variety of things can happen from being found by a traveler to being held prisoner afaik
 

Serious_Business

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This is really a question if written dialog can generate gameplay or not. To reiterate : the format always is going to be limited, by its very nature it's scripted. It can't replicate pen and paper roleplay where circumstances always are shifting and the effect of choices are made on the spot, spontaneously. Even very elaborate and complex dialog trees will always make you feel their limit in some way. If you want dialog in your pc game, removing speech skills has the risk or lowering a level of complexity. This level isn't much, but that's about what you'll get. Trying to push these boundaries seems to be pointless right now ; it's a structural limit that needs either a technical solution, or an indeed an incredible amount of resources. The little annoying jerk off was right about AI, though not voice AI ; what you would need to make this evolve is AI that can effectively generate language. Maybe that'll happen sooner or later. It's gonna be fucking horrifying. Be ready fuckoes, you're never going back
 

Harthwain

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You approach this question with the assumption that death is the only outcome for combat.

But there are many other possible outcomes. There are lots of RPGs where you have a scripted "you lose a fight and get captured" scene. JRPGs love to do this in particular, but plenty of western RPGs have such a scene too. Usually the fight is impossible so you HAVE to lose and get captured. It is also the only fight in the game where that happens.
You are right, of course. I got so used to game over being the only outcome that I forgot that some RPGs handle losing a fight in more nuanced ways. Gothic in particular comes to mind: usually people will just "beat" you and steal your stuff, but if you pick a fight with them a second time, they will end you. But a guy who wants to kill you, because he got an order to do so, kills you outright. I was truly amazed at how immersive Gothic was in general.

Add alternate outcomes to combat than the binary "either side A dies or side B dies" and you've got a whole lot of new possibilities.
You made me think how you could have new possibilities even when death is involved. Let's say you lose somebody at some point (a failed save against a spell that proves lethal, for example). What if you could hire an adventurer in a tavern to fill up your ranks of dungeon delving treasure-seekers? That way not only you're not completely screwed if you get out of the fight massacred, you also are encouraged to shake up the composition of your party (ressurecting a character should be difficult/special occasion after all). I am thinking about Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale meets Battle Brothers here.
 

JarlFrank

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I am thinking about Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale meets Battle Brothers here.

Friendly reminder BG2 had a pretty cool betrayal arc with Yoshimo who would permanently die when you killed him after his betrayal, but you then got a quest to cleanse his black heart and give him peace in death.

RPGs with companions can add some cool quests related to their deaths if designers were bolder.

The main reason people reload after a party member dies is because with his death, you lose out not only on his skills but also the content he might have provided (companion sidequests etc). But if some of your companions open new quests when they die, it makes taking the loss much more interesting.

It doesn't even have to be anything big. Maybe one companion is young optimistic girl who wants to be an adventurer, squeeee! Her parents always advised her against it.
She died while in your party.
Now you can go to her parents and tell them.
They won't take it well.

Maybe that proud warrior you recruited recites his last wish to you as he breathes his last, and you can swear to him to fulfil it.

Stuff like this. Wouldn't take any more work than implementing companion romances or whatever the fuck they do these days, but would provide a nice incentive to roll with your losses and see what happens.
 

vota DC

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If I remember well if you ask for impeacheable Court and being a unimpeachable president that get even the special title of Soll (no trial even after end of presidential term) you are called hypocrite...... but you can win.... even without law school.
Reasonable constitution without speech (law school) Is easier than than unreasonable constitution with speech skill.
So seems a good way to make dialogue but too much forgiving in this case. Speech has a role and past actions and coherence too but you can always win if you choose carefully your lines.
Most of games gave zero importance to internal dialogue logic, knowledge and past actions. You can't even call your rank.....you are a captain with 50 speech that saved his faction from his enemies but the sergeant will give those special supplies to a perfect stranger with 60 speech or even to an enemy that Isn't at shoot on sight level of hostility.
 
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Nobody likes the typical binary nature of dialogue. If combat was resolved through a single roll, nobody would like it either. The mechanics lack depth or strategy.

Oddly enough, DOS does a bit better than most by having their rock/paper/scissors minigame. Scope of challenge affects how win/loss total requirements, which I believe includes NPC disposition. While choice is arbitrary, you can still make some. It also comes down to more than one roll. Character skill value influences how significant each successful match is. Its actually a pretty decent system and I'd like to see it expanded upon.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Nobody likes the typical binary nature of dialogue. If combat was resolved through a single roll, nobody would like it either. The mechanics lack depth or strategy.

Oddly enough, DOS does a but better than most by having their rock/paper/scissors. Scope of challenge affects how win/loss total requirements, which I believe includes NPC disposition. While choice is arbitrary, you can still make some. It also comes down to more than one roll. Character skill value influences how significant each successful match is. Its actually a pretty decent system and I'd like to see it expanded upon.


oblivion will be considered a masterpiece in 2050
 

Jackpot

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I don't like just a "speech" skill, but I've also been playing AoD recently and don't think splitting speech into 5 different skills is much better.
I really don't like the scenario of "I've invested everything into knowledge about magic, but I haven't done enough other content so I still fail this magic knowledge skillcheck by one point".

I'd prefer to just be able to pay to be trained in or find knowledge of certain areas, and then have that knowledge forever. Have dialog be based on many static traits rather than numbers.
Of course, that runs the risk of letting your character be trained in everything and just being a master of knowledge as long as they have the money to afford it or find the correct material.
I dunno, maybe if you have classes you could restrict certain knowledge to certain classes. I'd just like something different than skillchecks.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
I'd prefer to just be able to pay to be trained in or find knowledge of certain areas, and then have that knowledge forever. Have dialog be based on many static traits rather than numbers.
Of course, that runs the risk of letting your character be trained in everything and just being a master of knowledge as long as they have the money to afford it or find the correct material.
I dunno, maybe if you have classes you could restrict certain knowledge to certain classes. I'd just like something different than skillchecks.
hmm
Having a "fact bank" would be interesting. When you encounter a new fact, possibly a percent chance your character already knows about it based on some governing skill/attributes related to it. A game could add a ton of different ways to add new "facts" to your fact bank ranging from first hand knowledge to being tutored.

Has any rpg done something like this?

[Edit]
Divinity original sin 2 tag system is somewhat like this. You add tags to your character based on a bunch of things and get more while playing.
 
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