World of Darkness Are World of Darkness vampires overpowered? Were they defeated too easily in V5 lore?

[J1M]

Regardless of the details for the V5 lore change, to me the intention is the problem. Am I wrong or was this not very obviously done to get the old vampires out of the way so that the Thinbloods are the new kings? And coming back to Bloodlines 2, any of the three basic Thinblood disciplines shown there seemed to me to be more powerful than many of the regular clan disciplines. It this the same in the V5 rules?

Yes, I've never understood the fascination with thinbloods. Or why anyone would want to play as one. Same thing with the Catiff.

 

[Storyfag]

invulnerable super saiyan vampires is bad writing

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the post, because it's just more of that extremely impressive 60-IQ V5 fanboying that's as tiring as it is pathetic, but I gotta reply to this one.

There are no "Invulnerable Super Saiyan Vampires", and there never were any, in any of the VTM editions throughout the years, barring Caine himself. In fact, I'd argue the trend was always the exact opposite the further in time you go. Methuselahs being described as nigh-omnipotent gods on one page, then getting effortlessly Diablerized on the very next by some "literally who" retard (even some fucking Antediluvians got this treatment, like [Lasombra]).

However, the way it used to be when the metaplot still made even the tiniest sense was that they didn't need to be invulnerable to survive for hundreds, thousands of years, they were just so good at manipulating others into doing their bidding from complete obscurity that nobody other than their Childer were even aware they existed, not to mention absolute absurdities like mortal agencies finding their exact location and drone bombing them by complete surprise.

Stop misrepresenting Delterius' position and the two of you may find out that you are actually in agreement...

 

[Storyfag]

Regardless of the details for the V5 lore change, to me the intention is the problem. Am I wrong or was this not very obviously done to get the old vampires out of the way so that the Thinbloods are the new kings? And coming back to Bloodlines 2, any of the three basic Thinblood disciplines shown there seemed to me to be more powerful than many of the regular clan disciplines. It this the same in the V5 rules?

Yes, I've never understood the fascination with thinbloods. Or why anyone would want to play as one. Same thing with the Catiff.

Oppressed minority points.

 

[Lambach]

Ah, yes, classic "they want power for reasons you can't get cuz you are human", ages as fine as milk after week under the sun. Even fey in pathfinder have more logical goals and some of them are literal flaming balls.

It makes more sense to assume you won't understand the mind and motivations of a 1000-year-old sentient corpse than to assume it's really sad and upset because it can't fuck or enjoy music anymore. Because the latter is your average human with clinical depression, and this setting is supposed to be about immortal abominations who were created as a result of a curse from Big G in the sky himself.

 

[Delterius]

There are no "Invulnerable Super Saiyan Vampires", and there never were any

This is the most flagrant lie I have ever read, especially from a 'muh metaplot' fanboy.

Methuselahs being described as nigh-omnipotent gods on one page

Yes, they would routinely consume entire continents both in the past and the projected end times of old WoD. Cut to Ravnos killing all of South Asia in a high powered super saiyan battle with the 3 Buddhas (!!) before an orbital wizard laser beam stopped him*.

*this is the writing muh metaplot posters defend, btw

hen getting effortlessly Diablerized on the very next by some "literally who" retard

damn its almost like ancient vampires getting hit with the retard stick has always been the plot device of Vampire

when the metaplot still made even the tiniest sense

never a thing

However, the way it used to be when the metaplot still made even the tiniest sense was that they didn't need to be invulnerable to survive for hundreds, thousands of years, they were just so good at manipulating others into doing their bidding from complete obscurity that nobody other than their Childer were even aware they existed, not to mention absolute absurdities like mortal agencies finding their exact location and drone bombing them by complete surprise.

Yeah, and then the meta plot moved forward and turned metusellahs into invulnerable super gods. At which point every fan with 2 neurons in their head started wondering why they ever bothered manipulating people, or why they ever thought the inquisition was a threat.

 

[Lambach]

Yeah, and then the meta plot moved forward and turned metusellahs into invulnerable super gods.

Are you literally retarded?

The further into the metaplot you go, the more these supposedly superpowerful Methuselahs keep dropping like flies and to dumber and more contrived things to boot. Just read the story of Dracula's Embrace for a perfect example, in which he, a mortal man with his band of mortal soldiers, stormed out his castle's gates and demolished a group Elders whose official Character Sheets (as established in various books) are such that they could damn well kill a human by looking at him sternly. Through good-old honest melee and horseback combat, no tricks, no shenanigans, this mortal man just happened to be stronger than Vampires with 6 dots in Potence.

Yeah, fine, you don't like characters who are meant to be powerful if they are actually powerful, I get it. You're a retard, but I get it. But that's not the issue, the issue is that the further in time you go, the more internal inconsistencies you find with previously established characters and themes. And V5, oh boy, it's the motherfucking jewel on that crown on internal inconsistency and general dumbfuckery.

 

[Delterius]

the more these supposedly superpowerful Methuselahs keep dropping like flies

Sorry bro, you just did 'The Lambach'.

-> complains V5 hits elder vampires with the torpor stick to justify ignoble deaths
-> points out old WoD did the exact same thing over and over again, this being proof super powerful vampires didn't exist in the old canon
-> ignores how old Vampire casually ends with Tzimisce merging with the entirety of mankind to become God and that's just one of the 1-43792-089247509238475 terrible ideas in the metaplot
-> 'i know, you're retarded because you don't like the metaplot'



Fooken metaplot fanboys I swear.

 

[Lambach]

-> complains V5 hits elder vampires with the torpor stick to justify ignoble deaths

When? All the ignoble deaths V5 Vamps faced were while they were fully active, and I never said otherwise. Why are you lying?

-> points out old WoD did the exact same thing over and over again, this being proof super powerful vampires didn't exist in the old canon

When did I claim "super powerful Vampires" didn't exist? I said they weren't invulnerable and they weren't. Some of them were established as nigh-invulnerable initially (even by their own Character Sheets), and were then killed off in the dumbest way possible shortly after. So much for either invulnerability or internal consistency. V5 just took that same malady present in old VTM, but cranked it up to a million.

Why are you lying, tho? Can't make an argument without inventing bullshit I never said? Happens when you try to defend the indefensible.

-> ignores how old Vampire casually ends with Tzimisce merging with the entirety of mankind to become God and that's just one of the 1-43792-089247509238475 terrible ideas in the metaplot

Except it doesn't, lul, it's one of the 5-6 "what would happen IF" scenarios that were offered to players.

-> 'i know, you're retarded

This one I can't argue with. You are legitimately, genuinely retarded, I agree.

 

[Delterius]

You are so disingenuous jesus christ.

 

[Lambach]

The sooner you accept that V5 is an irredeemable, abominable piece of shit that not only didn't fix anything, it actively made everything a lot worse by widening almost every single plot hole and inconsistency of old VTM, the sooner you'll stop looking like a complete retard by trying to defend it.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

The further into the metaplot you go, the more these supposedly superpowerful Methuselahs keep dropping like flies and to dumber and more contrived things to boot. Just read the story of Dracula's Embrace for a perfect example, in which he, a mortal man with his band of mortal soldiers, stormed out his castle's gates and demolished a group Elders whose official Character Sheets (as established in various books) are such that they could damn well kill a human by looking at him sternly. Through good-old honest melee and horseback combat, no tricks, no shenanigans, this mortal man just happened to be stronger than Vampires with 6 dots in Potence.

I don't get it, you're defending this kind of derpy stuff where a guy on horseback kills these uberpowerful creatures (who the hell knows how) but at the same time you hate V5 when it does similar things (often in an arguably less "lolrandom" way)?

Delterius doesn't seem to be arguing that V5 is good, only that it's using the same contrived (inconsistent as you called them) plot devices as it has always done in the past to deal with these uberpowerful creatures in the plot.

At least if you stick them in torpor or have them frenzy or hear the call of the beckoning it makes more sense that they could get destroyed. It's certainly better than having 6 dudes on horseback destroy near-gods at their full power. So if you're defending the latter you can't really criticize v5 for the former.

It's famously hard to write stories around Superman because of how overpowered he is, and Vampire lore is basically comprised of dozens of Supermen running around - in the mean time the players are comparatively random schmucks so how are they supposed to feel like anything that they're doing matters at all? So these plot devices get used to put a dent in the immortality of older vampires so that writers can work around them, and this happens both in the new and in the older versions. All Delterius is doing is point this similarity out to you, justifying why he think it isn't basis for valid criticism of V5, but you seem too nostalgic for old Vampire lore to realize it.

 

[Lambach]

And one last post, which I realize is a complete waste of time that would be better spent doing literally anything else, but I just can't help myself when I encounter this level of mental retardation and disgusting sleaziness.

There are no "Invulnerable Super Saiyan Vampires", and there never were any, in any of the VTM editions throughout the years, barring Caine himself. In fact, I'd argue the trend was always the exact opposite the further in time you go. Methuselahs being described as nigh-omnipotent gods on one page, then getting effortlessly Diablerized on the very next by some "literally who" retard (even some fucking Antediluvians got this treatment, like [Lasombra]).

-> points out old WoD did the exact same thing over and over again, this being proof super powerful vampires didn't exist in the old canon

When did I claim "super powerful Vampires" didn't exist? I said they weren't invulnerable and they weren't. Some of them were established as nigh-invulnerable initially (even by their own Character Sheets), and were then killed off in the dumbest way possible shortly after. So much for either invulnerability or internal consistency. V5 just took that same malady present in old VTM, but cranked it up to a million.

You are so disingenuous jesus christ.

Delterius have you ever considered a career as a used car salesman? 'Cuz you fit the profile 100%, baby.

 

[Lambach]

I don't get it, you're defending this kind of derpy stuff where a guy on horseback kills these uberpowerful creatures (who the hell knows how) but at the same time you hate V5 when it does similar things (often in an arguably less "lolrandom" way)?

You obviously don't get it, because I've been actively shitting on the later parts of the pre-V5 VTM lore in the majority of my posts during this sad little "argument", it's just that V5 takes it to a whole new and exponentially more retarded level.

It's like deciding whether you prefer getting kicked in the balls or shot in the chest. Both are obviously extremely unpleasant, but one is objectively much worse than the other.

 

[Jason Liang]

A couple of caveats.

- LaCroix is ded. Canonically. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Sebastian_LaCroix#Trivia
- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

One of my favorite LA By Night scenes.

 

[Storyfag]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

 

[Delterius]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

He's still around. Teresse, Nines and Isaac are the main barons of LA even in V5.

 

[Jason Liang]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

Isaac is.. obviously jewish?

 

[Delterius]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

Isaac is.. obviously jewish?

oi just because he's a film producer no need for profiling bruv

 

[normie]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

Isaac is.. obviously jewish?

yeah, he said fellow white

 

[Storyfag]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

He's still around. Teresse, Nines and Isaac are the main barons of LA even in V5.

I shudder to think what they made of Therese.

 

[Jason Liang]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

He's still around. Teresse, Nines and Isaac are the main barons of LA even in V5.

I shudder to think what they made of Therese.

 

[Delterius]

- Even Isaac Abrams got the Beckoning itch (in LA By Night), so it's not just 1000 year old licks that go ME, Isaac is not more than 100 years undead afaik.

Riight. Couldn't have someone like Isaac around. Too old, too male, and too fellow white.

He's still around. Teresse, Nines and Isaac are the main barons of LA even in V5.

I shudder to think what they made of Therese.

Spoiler

So I actually listened to that WoD 'critical role' thing while I played EU4. I stopped on season 3 but I think I can comment on this from memory. The Voernam sisters are mostly unchanged. Therese is portrayed as baron of Santa Monica and the years have been kind to her. She's making bank from gentrification, she's a puritan, she hates her sister's personality and she's playing the factions of the city for personal gain. But her thing is that she wants to make the malkavians great again. And she hates fish malks for the same reason she hates Jeanette's whoring around. In her eyes it does not garner respect. At one point she even tells 'milennial vampire played straight' Annabelle to shut the fuck up and stop being so sentimental about everything.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Agreed. I think it's very difficult to write genius level characters because writers themselves are rarely geniuses. So there ends up being a lot of smoke and mirrors (or deus ex machina-like occurrences) to try and give the semblance of genius to the reader. And of course, it's worse when the genius character is the purported antagonist who must be defeated.

I forget who said it, but there's a quote saying writers should never write a character smarter than themselves, because they're always guilt of exactly what you said.

For about a decade, the only convenient legal way to acquire a new copy was through Steam

I originally bought the game via Gamestop's digital distribution platform and the only problem they had were a limited number of activations...and if they lost the license you could never play the game again.

 

[Bara]

Question isnt the whole point of the masquerade because the vamps nearly got wiped out by some medieval inquasition or something back in the day and realized if humanity every became aware of their existance on mass again they'd be screwed?

Never read or played the ttrpg but thats what somone told me.

 

[Storyfag]

is a tranny vampire known as a trampire?

Trump's ire.

Question isnt the whole point of the masquerade because the vamps nearly got wiped out by some medieval inquasition or something back in the day and realized if humanity every became aware of their existance on mass again they'd be screwed?

Yes.