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Innovation in RPG genre

Should RPG designers innovate in their games?


  • Total voters
    50

laclongquan

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Innovation is no guarantee to financial success OR gamers' recognition (aka street cred).

Take Final Fantasy 8 for examples. They use a very innovative system of 100% configurable offense or defense. And so few gamers recognize the innovation.

And THAT come from AAA developer Squaresoft
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Innovation decreased because development costs and durations increased.
I have been thinking about that a lot recently: Why does it feel so hard to ship a game now, compared to before? Art is indeed part of the reason, but games with a simple presentations can take long to make. I think another major development cost is the QoL expectations of today. You just cannot ship a game with a 1990 UI anymore, and people won't read the manual, which makes things even harder, especially if you try to innovate instead of following genre conventions.
The developers of Into the Breach told that they spent half of the development time on the UI, and UI work also took a huge percentage of my development for Zodiac Legion.

It is also possible that game engines make it harder to do things your own way, instead of following established trends.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Innovation decreased because development costs and durations increased.
I have been thinking about that a lot recently: Why does it feel so hard to ship a game now, compared to before? Art is indeed part of the reason, but games with a simple presentations can take long to make. I think another major development cost is the QoL expectations of today. You just cannot ship a game with a 1990 UI anymore, and people won't read the manual, which makes things even harder, especially if you try to innovate instead of following genre conventions.
The developers of Into the Breach told that they spent half of the development time on the UI, and UI work also took a huge percentage of my development for Zodiac Legion.

It is also possible that game engines make it harder to do things your own way, instead of following established trends.
because devs spend 80% of their time crying on twitter that gamedev is too difficult
 

MF

The Boar Studio
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That said, the big problem is that innovation doesn't sell. See for example Titan Outpost - a hard sci-fi RPG with no combat but with base-building and survival. It currently stands at meager 45 reviews on steam 1,5 years after release.
It was always going to be a niche game, but I think the buggy state at release had something to do with it. The game couldn't benefit from an initial spike. Sales are still trickling in, almost at a thousand total now. Which still isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but there are over 5000 people who have it on their Wishlist so the interest is there. If the game wasn't innovative, I think it would be doing worse. Then again, who knows.

Titan Outpost Dismissal

I know you're firmly on the hate train and that's fine, to each his own, but I remember at some point you said you thought it looked bland and it was a hard pass for you. Did you even play it or is your opinion based on the concept alone?
 
Last edited:

ValeVelKal

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hard sci-fi RPG with no combat

giphy.gif
And that's, my friend, is why we don't get that much innovation in RPG. There is a bunch of old people who don't like their expectations to be challenged.

Though IMO there is still some significant innovation. Take for instance Disco Elysium
:troll:
 

V_K

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Though IMO there is still some significant innovation. Take for instance Disco Elysium
That's another problem with innovation: lack of recognition. The Council is a non-combat conversation-focused RPG released a year before DE and has better mechanics than DE (it's an actual game, for one thing) - but nobody acknowledges that because it's not hipster enough.
 

J1M

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Innovation decreased because development costs and durations increased.
I have been thinking about that a lot recently: Why does it feel so hard to ship a game now, compared to before? Art is indeed part of the reason, but games with a simple presentations can take long to make. I think another major development cost is the QoL expectations of today. You just cannot ship a game with a 1990 UI anymore, and people won't read the manual, which makes things even harder, especially if you try to innovate instead of following genre conventions.
The developers of Into the Breach told that they spent half of the development time on the UI, and UI work also took a huge percentage of my development for Zodiac Legion.

It is also possible that game engines make it harder to do things your own way, instead of following established trends.
because devs spend 80% of their time crying on twitter that gamedev is too difficult
The influx of indie devs doesn't help. It is harder than ever to have a break out hit, average talent in the industry is at an all-time low, and nobody sensible would opt to work in an industry with such an awful combination of long hours/low pay/job insecurity.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut
Innovation decreased because development costs and durations increased.
I have been thinking about that a lot recently: Why does it feel so hard to ship a game now, compared to before? Art is indeed part of the reason, but games with a simple presentations can take long to make. I think another major development cost is the QoL expectations of today. You just cannot ship a game with a 1990 UI anymore, and people won't read the manual, which makes things even harder, especially if you try to innovate instead of following genre conventions.
The developers of Into the Breach told that they spent half of the development time on the UI, and UI work also took a huge percentage of my development for Zodiac Legion.

It is also possible that game engines make it harder to do things your own way, instead of following established trends.
because devs spend 80% of their time crying on twitter that gamedev is too difficult
The influx of indie devs doesn't help. It is harder than ever to have a break out hit, average talent in the industry is at an all-time low, and nobody sensible would opt to work in an industry with such an awful combination of long hours/low pay/job insecurity.
if you aren't willing to work for nothing while subsisting on ginger roots and turmeric then you weren't going to make anything good anyways
 

JarlFrank

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bethesda was innovating like crazy and look how you trashed it to the ground

They didn't innovate forwards, they innovated backwards.

There are two directions a development can go: incline or decline. Bethesda was incline with Daggerfall and Morrowind, but chose to become decline from Oblivion onwards and then never left that path. Just like how modern "progressives" are pushing society backward instead of forward with such innovative ideas as "critical race theory" and "intersectionalism", Bethesda pushed RPGs - and games as a whole - backwards with such innovative ideas as quest compasses and horse armor DLCs.

The good kind of innovation develops forward, not backward. It adds more options, makes the game more compelling, re-thinks old genre conventions in a creative way.
What Oblivion did was casualize the formula and outright remove features. Daggerfall's and Morrowind's piecemeal armor and the ability to equip clothes under and over your armor? Gone, replaced with a generic chest-helmet-gauntlets-boots equipment system. The exploration of giant dungeons in Daggerfall and a mountainous island in Morrowind where all you have to go on is written directions and you have to find your own way? Gone, replaced with a "follow the marker" handholding feature that completely destroys any notion of organic exploration. That is not evolution, that is involution.

All we see from larger studios these days is either stagnation or involution. Stagnation in the vain attempts of re-making what was done before but failing to capture its essence (Pillars, Wasteland 2, Torment Tides of Numenera), and involution in the way some bad features are put into games just because they're the "standard" these days (Outer Worlds with its far greater degree of handholding than New Vegas had, the introduction of superfluous crafting systems into many RPGs where they don't belong).

We need evolution, not involution or stagnation.
 

luj1

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Those games you mention as innovative aren't RPGs. They are CYOA and visual novels. So, what's happening is, tasteless hipsters who can't even differentiate good from bad began deconstructing the norms. It's no different from the SJW movement in real life. Just like they are rewriting biology and history books, they are messing up with genre boundaries.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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I know you're firmly on the hate train and that's fine, to each his own, but I remember at some point you said you thought it looked bland and it was a hard pass for you. Did you even play it or is you opinion based on the concept alone?

It's not dismissal of Titan Outpost, which I think is a clever game, it's dismissal of calling it an RPG.

Similarly, I always applauded DE's setting and characters. That's not hate, but objective reasoning.
 

lukaszek

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such innovative ideas as quest compasses and horse armor DLCs.
in your edgy post you forgot to mention lvl scaling.

im lazy now, there was a thread with felipepe chipping in on things that bethesda did for first time, maybe someone will dig it out
 

ValeVelKal

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Though IMO there is still some significant innovation. Take for instance Disco Elysium
That's another problem with innovation: lack of recognition. The Council is a non-combat conversation-focused RPG released a year before DE and has better mechanics than DE (it's an actual game, for one thing) - but nobody acknowledges that because it's not hipster enough.
The Council was innovative. But as often with innovation some of the design choice you inherit from other games don’t work - in this case the case where you spend your time trying to find boosts while avoiding the next trigger like plague. Due to this the game was deeply flawed - but yes a very innovative RPG.
 

MF

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It's not dismissal of Titan Outpost, which I think is a clever game, it's dismissal of calling it an RPG.

Similarly, I always applauded DE's setting and characters. That's not hate, but objective reasoning.

Fair enough.

I've been around here too long to argue the definition of RPG anymore, but I call it an RPG because that's what I set out to make. Everything is tied to the character build and it has a rule system that a hypothetical DM could use to run a PNP game in the setting. I'm expanding the system to support combat, which I didn't add in because it made no sense to have more than one or two fights on a desolate moon. I felt there were more interesting avenues to explore. It satisfies all twelve requirements stated in the The Greater General Codex Theory of 'What is an RPG?'.

That said, it's valuable to have purists guarding a certain ossified vision of what constitutes a genre, otherwise a term loses its meaning. I'll admit that my first criterium of design was "Is this fun?", and "Is this fully in line with my ruleset?" came in second. Not by much, though.


It is also possible that game engines make it harder to do things your own way, instead of following established trends.

That's probably a factor, although I would phrase that differently. It's not harder to do things your own way, it's just easier to conform to the mold. Using what is already there is a temptation many are unlikely to resist. Steering clear of that requires a lot of focus, and probably even a certain degree of obstinance.
 

JarlFrank

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Now, here's some actual areas of classic RPGs where I'd like to see some degree of innovation... or simply a return of old features that existed in 20 to 30 year old games but have been long forgotten.

Non-binary outcomes for any major gameplay actions, be it quests, dialogues, or combat. Usually we only get two possible results for any given action: success or failure. There are no in-betweens. The only area where some RPGs give you degrees of success and failure is quests. Kill the terrorists but fail to rescue the hostages, you get a reward but it's not as good as if you managed to rescue the hostages. It's a success, but only partial - you could have done better.
We rarely, if ever, see this outside of quest resolutions though. What about the dialogue checks themselves? If you pick the persuasion option, you either succeed or fail. There is no "You barely persuaded him, but he's still suspicious of you" or "You didn't convince him but you managed to sow a seed of doubt in his mind". Either you entirely succeed, or you entirely fail.
What about dialogue checks that have degrees of success? 1-5 is fail, 6-10 is fail but with a bright side to it, 11-15 is success but with a caveat, 16-20 is success. A major problem of skill checks is that they're binary. By adding degrees of success to them, we instantly make them more interesting.

The same applies to combat. The outcome of combat encounters is binary: either you die, or the enemy dies. Very few RPGs implement a morale mechanic where frightened enemies flee from you. And I am not aware of any that give you full-fledged alternate outcomes that aren't the complete destruction of either side. What about surrendering, both of you and of your enemy? A group of bandits ambushing you only wants your stuff. You can surrender to them in exchange for all the gold in your pockets. Or they will surrender to you if you beat them up hard enough, instead of fighting to the death. They're just in this job to make money, after all. If they're bested by their prey, they won't fight to the death but run away or surrender if there is no other option. This would also allow for dialogue skills to play a role outside of scripted persuasion scenes in quests: if you have a high intimidation skill, you can get enemies to surrender more easily. If you have a high persuasion or bluff skill, you can get convince bandits to leave you some of your shit instead of taking all of it after you surrendered.
Or even just the ability to initiate dialogue during a fight. That shouldn't be so hard. Just add a "talk to" button in the interface and allow it to be used in combat. You can add some cool stuff like being able to talk down the end boss in the middle of combat, rather than having the strictly binary option of "persuade him before combat starts/fight him till the bitter end".

Speaking of combat, it can be made much more interesting by introducing elements like morale and terrain manipulation. Warbanners is a great wargame with RPG elements where every unit has morale that can drop and cause them to flee if too many of their companions are slain or they take a lot of damage. Some units can fell trees, damaging enemy units they fall on and creating an obstacle on the battlefield. Fireballs can leave flames on a hex, which causes damage to a unit each turn it stands on that hex. Why isn't this kind of shit more common in RPGs? It adds so much tactical flexibility, and it enhances the core RPG gameplay of building a party with diverse skills. Having an axe-wielding barbarian in your party who can fell trees in one stroke to create obstacles on the battlefield would be so awesome.
Generally, there's just so much that can be done with combat. A lot of it was already done in pen and paper systems - even in the comparatively simplistic D&D. Just look at Knights of the Chalice 2. Its campaign is unbalanced as fuck, but its systems are perfect. It uses D&D 3.5 rules which have been featured in several CRPGs, but never have they been implemented as completely as in KotC2. And the mere fact that this game implements the ruleset so completely already makes it innovative, and its combat system is one of the best ever seen in a CRPG. It has fully functional grappling mechanics, trip attacks, pushing and pulling enemies, height levels, liquid surfaces, etc etc. You can shove an enemy into a pit and he takes falling damage! You can swim through a lake but suffer reduced movement and maluses to attack as long as you're in the water! You can make an enemy trip and fall, and get attacks of opportunity when he tries getting back up! You can attempt to grapple a dragon with your bare fucking hands!!
Merely going the extra mile to do the pen and paper rulesets you're inspired by proper justice is already innovative, considering how stripped down CRPG combat rules usually are compared to their P&P counterparts.
You don't even have to do anything fancy. Just add basic things like terrain bonuses (height bonus, cover mechanics, etc), flanking and backstabbing, etc.

Innovating isn't rocket science. Just take what's already there and think it towards the next step. Evolve.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Of course Titan Outpost is an RPG. The only reason some people think it's not is that discussion of it coincided with the rush to discredit DE's credentials by shaping the definition of an RPG to be something that excludes it in particular. TO is just collateral damage.
 

Poseidon00

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As gaming became a massive industry it's no surprise that suits tried to make games formulaic money-sucking third jobs. If you look around however, you will find the occasional indie dev doing something interesting with the genre. I stand by Beholder as a good way to have moral ambiguity and tension within an RPG while doing something very different than the normal formula.
 

Hag

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Innovation is trash. Innovation means bringing novelty for the sake of it. Gameplay gimmicks. Technical eye-candy. Innovation is the bane of our technological society, it is pointless disruption, obsolescence, hardware hogging, loud advertisement. At best, innovation may be seen as a tool, there to support the ideas behind the game. Innovations ages poorly.

Creativity is good. It is risk-taking. It is knowing what you want to do and using the right tools to make it happen. Why should it matter is such system is never-seen before or not ? Is is good ? If yes, then it's a matter of correct game design. Innovation, if present, is a consequence of it, not the reason it was implemented in the first place.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
Innovation is trash. Innovation means bringing novelty for the sake of it. Gameplay gimmicks. Technical eye-candy. Innovation is the bane of our technological society, it is pointless disruption, obsolescence, hardware hogging, loud advertisement. At best, innovation may be seen as a tool, there to support the ideas behind the game. Innovations ages poorly.

Creativity is good. It is risk-taking. It is knowing what you want to do and using the right tools to make it happen. Why should it matter is such system is never-seen before or not ? Is is good ? If yes, then it's a matter of correct game design. Innovation, if present, is a consequence of it, not the reason it was implemented in the first place.

Yeah I agree with this to a large extent. Innovation and its cousin "originality" are the bane of creativity if set as goals. A tale could be told of how ideas like innovation and originality were over-emphasized as part of the subversion of the West (at first they were part of an era of unparalleled progress, so people came to expect them, but they were over-emphasized by the usual suspects, in order to help subvert ideas about traditionalism and order - novelty, rebelliousnes, innovation and originalty "good," traditionalism, conformity, order and structure "bad").
 

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