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Morrigan leaves the party

Belboz

Literate
Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Messages
18
There is one thing that I truly despise in RPG, I'm talking about those games that – as some point, for plot or other reasons (balance, for example) – take away a crucial member from the party.

In Dragon Age: Origins Morrigan leaves only at the end, under a specific condition, but I can think of many RPG in which we are left devoid of an important companion. Usually, in games à la Baldur's Gate, I never play as a thief, and so I need one for various purposes, but Shadows of Amn, at some point, takes away Yoshimo, the only pure thief in the game. A truly great loss!

In Wasteland 2, I was counting on Angela Deth and her assault rifles proficency, but then Angela is called back at the Citadel, and in 'exchange' I am left with Scotchmo, Chisel and Vulture's Cry, useless in the context of my party.

In Arcanum, Virgil leaves the party to be never found again, if you are determined to not find him again (which is definitely a possibility, if you dislike him). In Neverwinter Nights 2 there are no ways to save Shandra, my precious tank.

There are other examples (Pathfinder: Kingmaker comes to mind), but I don't want to write down an exhaustive list.

I'm not averse to lose a party member IF I've somewhat displeased him or her (i.e., I'm an evil villain and so the paladin feels rightfully out of place in my party), but – in general – I find this solution annoying. First and foremost because I choose the party core members in order to have a balanced group and then because I recruit companions only if I like them, I don't want 'second rate' solutions, or hired mercs.

In defence of the developers, one could say that some plot decisions are made to give a resemblance of free will to otherwise 'bidimensional' characters. It could be cited the case from Mass Effect, when Ashley shoots Wrex (if Shepard is low on renegade or paragon points), removing him from the story. Ashley do so becasue her loyalty to the cause is absolute and she responds to threats with lethal force and because of her xenophobia, but in many cases the loss of a party member – be it temporary or permanent – is always a bad thing because interferes with the way one plays.

In my opinion, party members must be 'mindless' slaves, under our unquestionable command throughout the game. And I don't want to mention those situations in which the departing member waves me goodbye, wearing that precious chainmail +5, without me having the means to shoot him (or her) in the head, because that was a loot worth 10.000 gold, for Maker's sake!
 

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
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party members must be 'mindless' slaves, under our unquestionable command throughout the game
Your opinion is wrong. :smug:

Game world shouldn't consist only of villains to defeat and gullible idiots trailing you like lost puppies. Get yourself some hirelings, instead of expecting devs to blunt companions' personalities into "personalities".

I agree that, from the gameplay perspective, it's frustrating to lose someone who fulfilled an important role in the party, but I think of it as strengthening interdependence between storytelling and gameplay. I don't know the term, but it also helps feel actual loss like, for example, slow pace of Das Boot helped feel the boredom of service on a submarine.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
In Dragon Age: Origins Morrigan leaves only at the end, under a specific condition
Then do what she wants if you don't want her to leave. You don't even have to do it yourself, you can tell one of your other companions to do it.

And I don't want to mention those situations in which the departing member waves me goodbye, wearing that precious chainmail +5, without me having the means to shoot him (or her) in the head
You can kill Morrigan later on in a DLC if you want.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Morrigan finally revealing her intentions and leaving you forever when you deny her request is the best part of DA:O, assuming that you are romancing her and that she has developed honest feelings for your character.
 

Poseidon00

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Dec 11, 2018
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And I don't want to mention those situations in which the departing member waves me goodbye, wearing that precious chainmail +5, without me having the means to shoot him (or her) in the head, because that was a loot worth 10.000 gold, for Maker's sake!

That shit drives me nuts. Give me a dialogue option where I can tell em you ain't fuckin leaving with my gear. Not hard.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
That shit drives me nuts. Give me a dialogue option where I can tell em you ain't fuckin leaving with my gear. Not hard.
I think an assumption that needs to be made with RPG companions is that they don't just let you hoard all of the money you find in your adventures. They're not slaves, realistically they would want a share of the party's wealth. This is represented by the equipment you put on them; whether you bought it from a store or looted it somewhere, it's their part of the share and they're not just going to give it to you because they're leaving.
 

Yosharian

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You can have the permanent loss of party members in a game without it putting you in a situation where you no longer have a thief or whatever. These two things are not the same.
 

Ebonsword

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party members must be 'mindless' slaves, under our unquestionable command throughout the game
Your opinion is wrong. :smug:

Game world shouldn't consist only of villains to defeat and gullible idiots trailing you like lost puppies. Get yourself some hirelings, instead of expecting devs to blunt companions' personalities into "personalities".

Temple of Elemental Evil did it best (as with so many things). You can create your entire party yourself, or have only one PC and fill up the rest of the slots with NPCs.
 
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Unwanted

Savecummer

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Party members should turn hostile and give the PC debuffs at some unpredictable point in the game - for maximum butthurt.

-edit-

Are there game that dare to do this? Cept for BG2?
 

Bester

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In Dragon Age: Origins Morrigan leaves only at the end, under a specific condition, but I can think of many RPG in which we are left devoid of an important companion. Usually, in games à la Baldur's Gate, I never play as a thief, and so I need one for various purposes, but Shadows of Amn, at some point, takes away Yoshimo, the only pure thief in the game. A truly great loss!

In Wasteland 2, I was counting on Angela Deth and her assault rifles proficency, but then Angela is called back at the Citadel, and in 'exchange' I am left with Scotchmo, Chisel and Vulture's Cry, useless in the context of my party.

In Arcanum, Virgil leaves the party to be never found again, if you are determined to not find him again (which is definitely a possibility, if you dislike him). In Neverwinter Nights 2 there are no ways to save Shandra, my precious tank.

There are other examples (Pathfinder: Kingmaker comes to mind), but I don't want to write down an exhaustive list.
Yeah, and in Lion King they stomp Simba's father. Furthermore, in Executive Decision, Stephen Seagal dies just 5 minutes into the movie. Don't you just hate it!

And then we have Top Ten Anime Deaths That Still Hurt.

Usually, in games à la Baldur's Gate, I never play as a thief, and so I need one for various purposes, but Shadows of Amn, at some point, takes away Yoshimo, the only pure thief in the game. A truly great loss!
Oh no. How did you ever manage to finish the game without a thief? Unimaginable!
 

jackofshadows

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Oct 21, 2019
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The opposite. Companions in RPGs who have their own agency are the best. 'Mindless slaves', unless their 'willingness' or great commitment somehow sufficiently substantiated are the worst and might even ruin immersion.

It goes not only for possible sudden desicions but for reason to join MC in the first place which is often written in a lazy fashion. Even if initial reasoning migh be fine there's always a question about why a companion automatically wants to complete the same ultimate mission? At least Bioware usually got away with some huge evil who have to be opposed so issue about neutral/good companions does not arise.
 

Darth Canoli

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I'm split on the topic.

Mostly, i think it's alright to lose companions but i also think you should get full party creation, or at least 4/6 with some spots for hirelings just like in Prelude to Darkness, Wizardry 8, ToEE, Isles of Terra ...

Still, sometimes, there's no reason for the companion to part ways, like in Wasteland 2, it's ok if she sits one or two missions out to get on another assignment but she should come back and if she's overpowered, just increase the encounters difficulty, actually, i thought having a higher level companion sometimes makes the game better, as long as the combat is still a challenge.

But mostly, i think most companions don't bring much to the table and that's why full party creation is way better, it's ok to have expendable companions or companions that won't stick with the party but if new fresh recruits or companions all have some unique talents or skills nobody else can have, it'd make it way better.
 

Belboz

Literate
Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Messages
18
In Dragon Age: Origins Morrigan leaves only at the end, under a specific condition, but I can think of many RPG in which we are left devoid of an important companion. Usually, in games à la Baldur's Gate, I never play as a thief, and so I need one for various purposes, but Shadows of Amn, at some point, takes away Yoshimo, the only pure thief in the game. A truly great loss!

In Wasteland 2, I was counting on Angela Deth and her assault rifles proficency, but then Angela is called back at the Citadel, and in 'exchange' I am left with Scotchmo, Chisel and Vulture's Cry, useless in the context of my party.

In Arcanum, Virgil leaves the party to be never found again, if you are determined to not find him again (which is definitely a possibility, if you dislike him). In Neverwinter Nights 2 there are no ways to save Shandra, my precious tank.

There are other examples (Pathfinder: Kingmaker comes to mind), but I don't want to write down an exhaustive list.
Yeah, and in Lion King they stomp Simba's father. Furthermore, in Executive Decision, Stephen Seagal dies just 5 minutes into the movie. Don't you just hate it!

And then we have Top Ten Anime Deaths That Still Hurt.
This is funny ('Funny, how?' as Joe Pesci would say), and it makes me laugh (because I whined too much, probably). BUT, you're talking about films, I'm talking about RPG (but what is an RPG?).

So, I'd like a choiche, if possible. A choiche to break Irenicus control over Yoshimo, for example, a way to convince Angela Deth to stay with me. Otherwise, these decisions, to me, seems to come not from the companions, but forced from above by the developers; such as the starting death in Dragon Age II, where the character that dies is determined by your starting class.

Moreover, I don't find Shandra's sacrifice a dramatic highlight of NW2, the whole scene seems to me like a farce. So it should have been avoided, for plot purposes. Take this just as an example.

---

To be precise, as a general response, the part in which I say 'mindless slaves' wants to be a provocation, and stems to me having sold Dak'kon into slavery, in Planescape: Torment.
 
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Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
You guys know Imoen, who you reach right after Yoshi's betrayal, knows enough to take care of all the traps in the game, right? BG2 doesn't actually cripple you in any way.
 

Belboz

Literate
Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Messages
18
You guys know Imoen, who you reach right after Yoshi's betrayal, knows enough to take care of all the traps in the game, right? BG2 doesn't actually cripple you in any way.
That insipid character? Yes, I remember her... alas.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,688
In my opinion, party members must be 'mindless' slaves, under our unquestionable command throughout the game.
I disagree. Strongly. Characters having agency is always an incline for me. That said, I see no reason why the game shouldn't have options to force NPCs to do your bidding against their will. Also, you should make it possible for the player to fill in the holes in the roster somehow (could be pretty much anything, such as having more pre-defined NPCs to pick from or a feature that allows to hire NPCs in a tavern, random or not).

Game world shouldn't consist only of villains to defeat and gullible idiots trailing you like lost puppies. Get yourself some hirelings, instead of expecting devs to blunt companions' personalities into "personalities".
Careful. Hirelings could decide to ditch you when situation gets serious. Maybe even rob you if they see you're a weakling. Or take a bribe from the opposition to turn on your or abandon you. What I am trying to say is - you shouldn't treat hirelings as mindless puppets just because you pay them.

You guys know Imoen, who you reach right after Yoshi's betrayal, knows enough to take care of all the traps in the game, right? BG2 doesn't actually cripple you in any way.
Yoshimo is the only "pure" thief. Alternatives are all multiclass characters. That said, it's harder to complete full "evil party" in BG2 than any other party. You have Korgan, Edwin and Viconia. You can change Anomen and Aerie to Chaotic Evil, so with the main character you can complete a set, but it requires some "know how", while "good party" can have 7 good characters from get-go and "neutral party" has 5 neutral characters to pick from.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Yoshimo is the only "pure" thief.
And pure thieves suck. Multiclass thieves are always better (assuming they have enough thief levels to get a decent amount of skill points... Nalia blows as a thief because she doesn't).

You can change Anomen and Aerie to Chaotic Evil
If only that were true. Best you can do with Anomen is make him Chaotic Neutral, Aerie can't be corrupted at all.

Also, Imoen is a pushover. She doesn't leave even if you go full murderhobo. That makes her the most appropriate thief for an evil party in SoA.
 

Maxie

Guest
Party members may only leave my party when I gut them for complaining
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,688
And pure thieves suck. Multiclass thieves are always better (assuming they have enough thief levels to get a decent amount of skill points... Nalia blows as a thief because she doesn't).
My point was less about thieves being good class and more about there being no fully-fledged thief (if the main character isn't a thief himself). I guess it's done that way partly to sneak Yoshimo into your party so you can be stabbed in the back.

If only that were true. Best you can do with Anomen is make him Chaotic Neutral, Aerie can't be corrupted at all.
You're right. I misremembered that.
 

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