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Indie Underlair - roguelike dungeon crawler with optional co-op

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Unless Grimrock 2 has had an extremely long tail, it definitely wasn’t more successful than 1. IIRC Vault Dweller even wrote up his thoughts on why so many sequels were flopping compared to their forbears with Grimrock 2 as his prime example. Being lazy and avoiding googling, but my memory is that 2 sold about 300k units in the time that 1 sold 1million.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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The relevant metric of commercial success for a game is revenue in terms of a unit of currency, rather than number of copies sold. Although the original Grimrock undoubtedly earned more revenue for the developers than the sequel, the gap between them is probably far lower than implied by the given numbers of copies sold. :M
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
The relevant metric of commercial success for a game is revenue in terms of a unit of currency, rather than number of copies sold. Although the original Grimrock undoubtedly earned more revenue for the developers than the sequel, the gap between them is probably far lower than implied by the given numbers of copies sold. :M

I don’t know that it was an outright bomb, I’m sure it broke even, but the devs stated that it significantly underperformed relative to their expectations, and that their next project(s) would be smaller in scope as a result.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
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Messages
252
Watching the gameplay videos I'm having a hard time seeing how representing over players won't look clumsy when they start moving around. They will jolt forwards in an instant like the camera does? How will co-op combat work?

If co-op is too hard, I hope the project continues as a solo adventure.
With or without co-op, the solo adventure is the foundation of the project. The only thing that really concerns me about co-op, is how players will be represented in the world map, because there is a limited tile space for the 6 character party. I mean, it's doable, but I need to consider some aspects about it. I've just successfully integrating co-op for moving around with a server-client approach. They do "jolt" forward, the same way the first person player does it, because I don't see how else it can be done in a grid system, unless I drastically decrease the walking speed, which will then drastically affect game play pacing. To me, it doesn't bug me at all, but I'm trying to figure out if this can be improved and how people that are following Underlair with interest, will feel about it.
 
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Whisper

Arcane
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Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
Watching the gameplay videos I'm having a hard time seeing how representing over players won't look clumsy when they start moving around. They will jolt forwards in an instant like the camera does? How will co-op combat work?

If co-op is too hard, I hope the project continues as a solo adventure.
With or without co-op, the solo adventure is the foundation of the project. The only thing that really concerns me about co-op, is how players will be represented in the world map, because there is a limited tile space for the 6 character party. I mean, it's doable, but I need to consider some aspects about it. I've just successfully integrating co-op for moving around with a server-client approach. They do "jolt" forward, the same way the first person player does it, because I don't see how else it can be done in a grid system, unless I drastically decrease the walking speed, which will then drastically affect game play pacing. To me, it doesn't bug me at all, but I'm trying to figure out if this can be improved and how people that are following Underlair with interest, will feel about it.

Why use time on co-op?
Focus on solo adventure.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
Watching the gameplay videos I'm having a hard time seeing how representing over players won't look clumsy when they start moving around. They will jolt forwards in an instant like the camera does? How will co-op combat work?

If co-op is too hard, I hope the project continues as a solo adventure.
With or without co-op, the solo adventure is the foundation of the project. The only thing that really concerns me about co-op, is how players will be represented in the world map, because there is a limited tile space for the 6 character party. I mean, it's doable, but I need to consider some aspects about it. I've just successfully integrating co-op for moving around with a server-client approach. They do "jolt" forward, the same way the first person player does it, because I don't see how else it can be done in a grid system, unless I drastically decrease the walking speed, which will then drastically affect game play pacing. To me, it doesn't bug me at all, but I'm trying to figure out if this can be improved and how people that are following Underlair with interest, will feel about it.

Why use time on co-op?
Focus on solo adventure.
Other questions could be:
  • Why using procedural generation?
  • Why using First Person View?
  • Why grid based movement?
  • Why 6 characters and not 4 or 8?
  • Why the dark fantasy setting and not sci-fi?
  • Why AAA quality and not low-poly?
  • Why 32 skills and no 24 or 40?
  • Why 8 stats and not just 6?
  • Why 8 magic schools and not only 4?
Regardless the questions, the answer is the same to all of them: because that's how I want it to be; it's my vision, which is strongly based on my preferences and not about being right or wrong, naturally.
If I was about to modify the project to accommodate everyone's preferences, the project would cease to exist. I won't allow that. If it fails, it needs to fail based on it's very own premise, otherwise there is no lesson to be learned.
 
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Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
Watching the gameplay videos I'm having a hard time seeing how representing over players won't look clumsy when they start moving around. They will jolt forwards in an instant like the camera does? How will co-op combat work?

If co-op is too hard, I hope the project continues as a solo adventure.
With or without co-op, the solo adventure is the foundation of the project. The only thing that really concerns me about co-op, is how players will be represented in the world map, because there is a limited tile space for the 6 character party. I mean, it's doable, but I need to consider some aspects about it. I've just successfully integrating co-op for moving around with a server-client approach. They do "jolt" forward, the same way the first person player does it, because I don't see how else it can be done in a grid system, unless I drastically decrease the walking speed, which will then drastically affect game play pacing. To me, it doesn't bug me at all, but I'm trying to figure out if this can be improved and how people that are following Underlair with interest, will feel about it.

Why use time on co-op?
Focus on solo adventure.
Other questions could be:
  • Why using procedural generation?
  • Why using First Person View?
  • Why grid based movement?
  • Why 6 characters and not 4 or 8?
  • Why the dark fantasy setting and not sci-fi?
  • Why AAA quality and not low-poly?
  • Why 32 skills and no 24 or 40?
  • Why 8 stats and not just 6?
  • Why 8 magic schools and not only 4?
Regardless the questions, the answer is the same to all of them: because that's how I want it to be; it's my vision, which is strongly based on my preferences and not about being right or wrong, naturally.
If I was about to modify the project to accommodate everyone's preferences, the project would cease to exist. I won't allow that. If it fails, it needs to fail based on it's very own premise, otherwise there is no lesson to be learned.

I always urge people to try to create their own games; to express their own vision, even if the concept doesn't interests me. Innovation and creativity takes risk and effort and ignoring the 'naysayers' it's halfway to their success. When you confront a naysayer, you are automatically triggering him to wish for your vision to fail, so he may feel good about being right; he will rarely feel good about being wrong. Well, usually no one does.

You got very defencive and i didnt even mean to attack you.
But thank you for educating me on your principles, not that i've asked you for this.

Was just saying that co-op can take a lot of resources, while deep exploration is best for many people done solo.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
Was just saying that co-op can take a lot of resources, while deep exploration is best for many people done solo.
I understand your concern. It can and will take more resources, and mostly due to the Visual quality I've choose. I can say that, I already have the multiplayer working. The hardest part will be, having models for all the characters and their respective animations. The deep exploration is the core foundation of the game and nothing will get in the way of that. Regardless, it won't please everyone.
 
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Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://underlair.blogspot.com/2021/04/co-op-first-steps.html

Co-op - First steps

The first steps towards co-op have been achieved! Using Mirror, Underlair now supports a Server-Client approach for co-op game play, where one player will host a session for other players to connect to.

Bellow, is a an in-game image showing 3 players connected, represented by placeholder 3d models. Each group of characters represents a player. You can see that, depending on the player count, the characters controlled will change accordingly.






The multiplayer component already synchronizes player position and locomotion animations across all clients but there are still some aspects I need to take care of, like interacting with the world and making those changes visible across all players.


Another aspect I need to consider is having these 3D models reacting to the floor's obstacles and adjust their vertical position when using stairs. Once I get all this sorted out, I will make a video demonstrating the co-op in action.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
Hello everyone, I would like to share with you a project I've been working on since last August: Underlair.

The game aims to be a co-op, dungeon crawler, roguelike party based RPG, with mixed realtime and turn based mechanics.
It's still in a very early state of development with most of its 2D art being placeholder.

Some key features include:
  • Single player & Co-op up to 3 players (party split).
  • Permadeath.
  • Procedural map generation.
  • Procedural quests.
  • Grid based movement in a 3D world.
  • Tactical formations.
  • Item crafting.
  • Survival (supply management)
  • Exploration.
You can find a more detailed description of its features here.



Thanks for watching.


Enjoyed 2nd video.

Why no such games at the moment?

Grimrock is very close though (but not such atmospheric)

It's probably connected with the fact that, this type of games belong to an older generation of gamers. The younger generation of devs and players, didn't have that much contact with this genre, that's why they don't receive that much attention. At least, this is my humble view on the subject. Regardless, Legend of Grimrock is proof that, there is a market for this type of games.


Yes but be carefull, legend of grimrock sold a lot, but not legend of grimrock 2 , while its superior to the first one in every way. It sold a lot because it was cool looking and new, they had luck , there was nothing to buy .Many buyers were probably not really interested in the genre.
 

Whisper

Arcane
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Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
As if there is a lot to buy now.

I would pay easily 5 times more right now to play Legend of Grimrock 3 or Colony Ship or anything else with such high quality.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
https://underlair.blogspot.com/2021/04/co-op-first-steps.html

Co-op - First steps

The first steps towards co-op have been achieved! Using Mirror, Underlair now supports a Server-Client approach for co-op game play, where one player will host a session for other players to connect to.

Bellow, is a an in-game image showing 3 players connected, represented by placeholder 3d models. Each group of characters represents a player. You can see that, depending on the player count, the characters controlled will change accordingly.






The multiplayer component already synchronizes player position and locomotion animations across all clients but there are still some aspects I need to take care of, like interacting with the world and making those changes visible across all players.


Another aspect I need to consider is having these 3D models reacting to the floor's obstacles and adjust their vertical position when using stairs. Once I get all this sorted out, I will make a video demonstrating the co-op in action.

You are attentive! Yeah, these 2 last weeks were all about learning to use Mirror and grasping the multiplayer concept. I'm quite pleased with the results. Lets see how this turns out.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
Yes but be carefull, legend of grimrock sold a lot, but not legend of grimrock 2 , while its superior to the first one in every way. It sold a lot because it was cool looking and new, they had luck , there was nothing to buy .Many buyers were probably not really interested in the genre.

If I'm to be totally honest with you, I don't think Underlair will sell that much. Selling 10k copies would be an incredible achievement for me. Well, even 5k would be awesome.
Regardless, it will be an incredible learning process, considering I'll still learning to use Unity, learning multiplayer for the first time, and I'm getting around building a community and all that. I will have to invest on publicity later on, but for now, I first want to finish developing Underlair's core mechanics. The combat will be key to showcase its most important features.
 
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Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,687
Location
Perched on a tree
with mixed realtime and turn based mechanics.

Some key features include:
  • Procedural map generation.
  • Procedural quests.
  • Survival (supply management)
You can find a more detailed description of its features here.

Hi,

Everything in the quote is what concerns me.

I don't like procedural generation maps but i can live with it if it's well made.
Procedural generation quests is garbage though, i can't think of any game that did it right.
Survival mechanism in a blobber just screams busy work or exploration limitations but i could live with it as well (or cheat/hack it)

Now, mixed realtime and TB mechanism, i'm hoping you're talking about how Might & Magic VI works, for example and not some JRPG monstrosities with fake TB modes with "turn cooldowns"
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
Hello. Those are genuine concerns. I'll add more info on them:

I don't like procedural generation maps but i can live with it if it's well made.
Procedural generated in Underlair is a mixture of handcrafted 9x9 tiled size prefabs with random placement. These prefabs will also have mechanics for shifting architecture within themselves and to control events, loot and creature spawning.
The goal of Underlair is to provide a unique experience each time you play a new game solo or with friends. If you are not a fan of roguelikes, chances are you will probably not enjoy this one. As I said before, Underlair is about exploring, combat strategy, survival and decision making. Forget Underlair if you are after a good story telling.

Procedural generation quests is garbage though, i can't think of any game that did it right.
I'm not sure what makes a good quest, but there will be no scripted quests for 2 reasons. First, they loose all their replay value and secondly, the world is dynamic so, they could never be fully scripted.
Although I haven't given them much thought, have made an early sketch for the procedural algorithm to build these quests:

Step 1: define type.
  1. Fight.
  2. Fetch.
  3. Social interaction.
  4. Save / help.
  5. Find.
  6. Courier
  7. Explore.
  8. Hunt down.
Step 2: define criteria
  1. How many NPCs will be involved in the quest?
  2. How many check points will be needed to visit?
  3. How many dialog options will be available.
  4. How many failure conditions are there?
  5. Is there a time limit?
  6. Are there necessary items in the inventory?
  7. Will your objective shift location?
  8. What cascade events can follow?
Step 3: Conclusion
  1. What are the consequences of completing the quest?
  2. What are the consequences of failing the quest?
  3. How will the quest's outcome impact on settlements?
  4. How will the quest's outcome impact on the region?
  5. Will there be an impact on the economy?
  6. Will a particular type of creature go extinct?
  7. Which NPCs will praise or hate your actions?
Survival mechanism in a blobber just screams busy work or exploration limitations but i could live with it as well (or cheat/hack it)
I'm not sure what kind of busy work you are referring to but you won't need to manually feed characters - as long you have supplies, you'll be good, you just need to plan ahead before venturing throughout the world. Characters will also have a common inventory which represented by a limited number of slots and maximum carrying, which is the combined power of all characters.

Survival tips:
  • Make sure your party is fully healed before beginning exploring.
  • Bring enough food (supplies). Some places will put you through 'no turning back' situations.
  • Make sure your equipment is in good shape and bring a second set of gear, because you will need it.
  • Understand the biome you are currently in and check the time of the day. Some nasty critters may be lingering about at that point.
  • Evaluate the situation. Check your party's power and check the difficulty level of a dungeon, you can still pull it off if you plan ahead.
  • Always have a rope, and make sure its length it's still considerable.
You will also have the option to setup your adventure the way you want, this includes, changing several aspects of the game, including being invulnerable to damage, so you don't need to worry about hacking or cheating at all.
Now, mixed realtime and TB mechanism, i'm hoping you're talking about how Might & Magic VI works, for example and not some JRPG monstrosities with fake TB modes with "turn cooldowns"

The closest I can think of are the mechanics of Fallout 2 (real-time movement / exploration with action point turn based combat).
 
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Darth Canoli

Arcane
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Messages
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Perched on a tree
The closest I can think of are the mechanics of Fallout 2 (realtime movement / exploration with action point turn based combat).

That's one good news at least.


I'm not sure what makes a good quest

I'm guessing you didn't play Prelude to Darkness, it has one of the best (if not the best) quest design for a CRPG.
Fallout, Arcanum, the wizardry series have a good quest design, planescape torment too, expeditions vikings...

One game you should play for sure is Exiled Kingdoms, it combines procedurally generated quests and handcrafted ones, the latter are very well made at that.

Maybe you can pull off a decent procedural quest design but even then, making the game infinitely re-playable just makes it infinitely boring, no game is infinitely re-playable.

Really, you should play Exiled Kingdoms and maybe you'll change your mind and add some handcrafted quests along with your procedural system.
Some quests can have different outcomes, different ways to be solved (Prelude to Darkness did this masterfully), could unlock side quests or interact with other quests, lock some paths, open some others which can make the game replayable but still interesting.

Some games pulled off some good fetch/delivery quests (the PST box quest comes to mind) but i don't believe one second procedural fetch/delivery quests are worth wasting 5 minutes to complete or code for that matter.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
One game you should play for sure is Exiled Kingdoms, it combines procedurally generated quests and handcrafted ones, the latter are very well made at that.

Maybe you can pull off a decent procedural quest design but even then, making the game infinitely re-playable just makes it infinitely boring, no game is infinitely re-playable.

I really don't know how quests will turn out. Honestly, this is not a core feature for Underlair and the procedural quest design will barely contribute to the game's replay value making it a low priority atm. And yes, replay value is not about making a game that you will never get tired of, but increasing the replay value before you get bored of it.

Really, you should play Exiled Kingdoms and maybe you'll change your mind and add some handcrafted quests along with your procedural system.
Some quests can have different outcomes, different ways to be solved (Prelude to Darkness did this masterfully), could unlock side quests or interact with other quests, lock some paths, open some others which can make the game replayable but still interesting.
I think Gothic 2 would be a good example of what you describe. Regardless, I think I can respond here with a comment I have stated, not long ago:
"...I, for instance, I play games for the gameplay; I really don't care much about stories anymore; I prefer sandboxes that just give me "tools" and freedom to do whatever I please: I'll create my own story. If anyone is looking for a game with good story-telling, forget Underlair; this one has another agenda.

As for RPGs, nowadays, I find myself completely unable to play scripted games, except for good old classic ones (for some reason). God knows how I really tried to play Pillars of Eternity. This game is very well executed, nicely polished and has a great story, and yet I die of boredom whenever I try to play it. This is a type of game I played so much back in the 90's that it just grew old to me, at least this is the most suitable explanation that I can think of, that and the fact I'm getting old. RPGs for me, they are all about crafting and ascending your character, finding loot, explore places, vanquish foes, and challenge yourself to build new tactics to overcome obstacles <- Underlair in a nutshell."


So, this will get you an idea of where the project is heading. I don't think you will enjoy it if you are expecting a good story and interesting quests.
 
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Darth Canoli

Arcane
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Perched on a tree
So, this will get you an idea of where the project is heading. I don't think you will enjoy it if you are expecting a good story and interesting quests.

I don't like that much story rich RPG either, the Banner Saga 1 was a good distraction but it's just a glorified Tactical game combined with a visual novel.

But the core design of a CRPG is good combat (TB, party-based) and a good quest design.
And it still needs some story eleemnts with scripted events here and there, that's how the best ones were made.

That said, it's your game, if you want to make a sandbox game passing for a RPG, don't mind me, i'll just not play it.
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
That said, it's your game, if you want to make a sandbox game passing for a RPG, don't mind me, i'll just not play it.
That's perfectly fine. You are not the first and you won't be last one telling me that, not that it will change anything.
It's just impossible to create something that will please everyone, be it a game, movie, book, film, music, painting and whatnot.
 
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Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
Hello everyone. I'm just posting a bunch of screenshots as a follow-up to Underlair's development.
The UI has been heavily focused on and the mockups below are now being coded into the game.

Underlair_Spider_UI_Maximized.png


Underlair_Spider_UI_Minimized.png


UI_NewGame_v3.png

UI_CharacterGenerator_NewVersion.png


UI_CharacterGenerator_Classes_NewVersion.png
 
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Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
It is crazy how 1 person can make such good system. And looking at screenshot system already looks good.

But i am worried this will take like 5+ years to make this game...
 

Ularis Badler

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Messages
252
It is crazy how 1 person can make such good system. And looking at screenshot system already looks good.

But i am worried this will take like 5+ years to make this game...
Your reasoning is totally fair. In August of this very year, Underlair will hit 1 year development time and when I look back, it is indeed impressive how much I managed to develop during this time. But then, I recall that I've worked on it 5 hours on average every single day and I haven't had any fun at all playing games, travelling or socializing with family and friends. I'm not complaining though, I'm doing something I really enjoy and thankfully, my wife has indoor hobbies that facilitate our relationship and project management. Cheers!
 
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