Wizardry Wizardry 8 - surviving high level mobs

[gunman]

I recently started Wiz8 and I really love the game. However, as many other novices before me, I have a problem with high level spawns. Especially travelling between locations, like Monastery-Arnika-Trynton road, or entering the Trynton map.
For example, I left Arnika to revisit monastery around level 9/10, and I fought my way through many waves of monsters until I finally came upon 2 groups of crushing crabs that were too much (they had over 100 HP an did more damage per hit than any of my character could). I tried to run but they were as fast as me and they still could strike after running, so it was a hopeless situation.
If a mob is standing in your way on the road, it seems impossible to avoid it without a fight. If there is a line of sight, they will always walk towards you so trying to hug the walls to avoid them is not working. I read about resting somewhere until it despawns, but it is as gamey as manipulating party levels to deal with the spawns (holding back levels, or grinding levels).
Is there some spell I should learn or other game mechanic that could help me avoid fighting everything along the way, especially early game?
Thanks!

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

For me one of the most useful spell on Arnika road was Insanity. It's cheap to cast considering it's effect and it hits reasonably often. It makes monsters fight each other which obviously reduces their HP, but also allows you to fight them 2-3 at a time instead of facing all of them at once. Also if you've already reached Arnika you can try exploring other places. I'm not sure but I think mobs around the Umpani camp are easier to deal with than the ones in Trynton.

 

[coldcrow]

Early Midgame is hard. since you are new, you won't have the best weapons and you probably took level-ups as quickly as possible. Accept the fights and learn to deal with them. CC spells are your best friend: Blind, Terror, Hypnotic Lure, Insanity etc.
Try to develop your skills and don't take levelups, except you are really close to a main stat reaching 100, thus unlocking the expert skill.
Get everyone up to par in some form of ranged combat (Bows, Guns, Spells, Throwing), combined with CC spells you can weaken enemy groups alot before they enter melee range. It's mostly about breakpoints, when you get several swings/attacks per round you will see a major difference in combat results.
Sorceresses + entourage are a pain in the butt. Have some long range disabling spell ready to shut her up

Wiz8 is mostly about perseverance. If you are too weak to deal with an area, despite being equal in level, you have to grind up skill values.

 

[luj1]

You need some CC and AoE damage. Also party composition. Bards are great for CC, Gadgeteer is meh, Bishops, Clerics and Valkyries are a must.

 

[coldcrow]

You need some CC and AoE damage. Also party composition. Bards are great for CC, Gadgeteer is meh, Bishops, Clerics and Valkyries are a must.

Bullshit. you can beat the game with any Party composition. I suspect the OPs probelm is the usual of a new Wiz8 player: took fast levelups and now has to deal with mobs of equal to +2 level, which he has not the appropriate skill values for. This has nothing to do with party composiition, in fact, having a bishop will only amplify the problem.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

You need some CC and AoE damage. Also party composition. Bards are great for CC, Gadgeteer is meh, Bishops, Clerics and Valkyries are a must.

Bullshit. you can beat the game with any Party composition. I suspect the OPs probelm is the usual of a new Wiz8 player: took fast levelups and now has to deal with mobs of equal to +2 level, which he has not the appropriate skill values for. This has nothing to do with party composiition, in fact, having a bishop will only amplify the problem.

If you deliberately stall levelling-up you'll also get new spells and abilities slower which will make the game more boring. Wizardry 8 is not really that difficult (on standard difficulty) enough to warrant trying to game the system like that. I advanced my characters right after I've gotten the levels and the only time I found myself in a situation where I just couldn't beat monsters was when I ventured into Bayjin shallows for the first time. Going in different places and returning solved the issue.

 

[grimer]

youre not expected to beat every encounter especially during the early game. wizardry 8 is actually more lenient in this regard because you can identify monsters from afar and decide whether you wish to engage in combat (under your own terms ofc). theres no need to withhold level ups or grind skills, just cast crowd control spells and use the terrain to your advantage and you will prevail. in your case, crusher crabs are quite fat (almost as big as king crab i think) so try to fight them in narrow passages where only 1-2 of them are within melee range of your party. if youre fighting them in an open space where there are no narrow passages, you can cast something like web/blinding flash/insanity then use the walk command to lure the active crabs away and separate them.

If there is a line of sight, they will always walk towards you so trying to hug the walls to avoid them is not working

do you have the light spell active? i think that increases the likelihood of enemies detecting you. you can also cast chameleon (or drink tincture of shadows potion if theres no alchemist in your party) to help you avoid encounters.

 

[Fluent]

nice, informative thread. thanks guys. i have to play more of this. the advanced party combinations are just too good to *not* play this beast.

 

[Invictus]

All good advice; managing your level ups is always recommended since the separate skills that raise with use sometimes can make gimpy characters with underdeveloped fighting and casting skills... do try to treat each encounter as a “training excuse” where you have some frontline fighters try a few simple spells to properly develop their skills especially for Crusaders and Valkyries, but all characters with spells should be able to cast low level spells in combat when required

Bards with their unlimited effects spells like Sleep are invaluable for crowd control early and are very recommended for new players

Damage spells are not that great in Wizardry but Status effects spells are almost mandatory in almost any encounter so Insanity, Blindness, Itching Skin Web etc are very good crowd control so enemies are more manageable in bigger groups

try to use the terrain to your advantage by using nooks and crannies to make sure enemies don’t surround you or overwhelm you

When you go back to the monastery there will be some metallic slimes that are almost immune to physical attacks; they don't do a lot of damage and are great to make sure your fighters develop their melee skills properly

Also try to always have your enchantments like Enchanted Sword, Magic Screen and Armor spells on, they allow your fighters to be able to hit and penetrate when they do hit and believe me every little bit counts

And lastly in Trenton there is a Cursed sword called Bloodlust on the bank vaults that makes the wielder cursed with a permanent Berserker spell so they always do triple damage

That is one if the main differences between Wizardry and Might & Magic;
On Might and Magic you do 95% of the combat in autopilot and only 5% where you have to actually plan your encounters like with Minotaurs while on Wizardry even the most basic combat encounter can turn deadly if your characters are not properly developed in their skills regardless of level, you don’t have the proper pre combat enchantments cast and if you didn’t use a few Status effects to soften things up

 

[Hobo Elf]

You need some CC and AoE damage. Also party composition. Bards are great for CC, Gadgeteer is meh, Bishops, Clerics and Valkyries are a must.

Bullshit. you can beat the game with any Party composition. I suspect the OPs probelm is the usual of a new Wiz8 player: took fast levelups and now has to deal with mobs of equal to +2 level, which he has not the appropriate skill values for. This has nothing to do with party composiition, in fact, having a bishop will only amplify the problem.

I disagree with leveling up asap being a problem. Yes, you can certainly powergame by doing delaying levels, but it won't make the game any easier if you're playing it for the first time. The most important thing in the early game is identifying which spells are the most valuable picks. Spells like Insanity are really great. If you just try to do AoE damage with a Mage then that won't work too well since their damage will be pitifully low and is of less value than turning enemies against each other and making them waste turns/deal damage to each other. Action economy is key in Wiz8's early game when you can't reliably hit enemies and do noodle damage even if you do.

I do, however, agree that Bishops will cause problems, especially for new players. In general my opinion on Bishops in Wizardry are not very favorable. I consider them to be a trap choice and would never, ever recommend anyone, especially a new player, to take one. Certainly the Bishop can be your strongest caster, but it requires long and deliberate grind that at least I consider to be unnecessary. It's basically taking the long route on purpose when you can get to the end faster and just as well as without a Bishop. Not saying you shouldn't take one if you really like the class, but I wouldn't recommend it as a catch-all replacement for the other caster classes that I see people often do, especially without explaining how a Bishop needs to be maintaned in order for it to surpass the other casters.

 

[Piotrovitz]

And lastly in Trenton there is a Cursed sword called Bloodlust on the bank vaults that makes the wielder cursed with a permanent Berserker spell so they always do triple damage

Sword is in Arnika, and it does triple dmg only for Rogues, and only in case the attack is thrust (which gives x2 dmg from backstab), and not swing. Then the backstab and berserk attack adds up, giving x3 dmg. Give it to any other class and you only get x2 from berserk.

On delaying levels - I never understand this bullshit. Are people deliberately delay level ups just to avoid bit tougher mobs? This is retarded, especially in case of casters, where level up means access to higher level spells, which makes fights easier and easier.

On CC vs DD - like in almost every cRPG, CC is the king, but I think too many people are dismissing DD in Wiz 8.
Sure, late game DD fall behind in favour of CC and instakill spells, but early/mid game they are actually useful and makes things easier, i.e fireball or magic missiles against savant troops/higardis/plants/ants/etc, or shrill sound against wasps.

As for party composition - as someone said, the game is beatable with any party, and that's the part of it's class system diversity awesomeness. There is no class that is irreplaceable.
You don't have a priest for magic screen or armorplate? Bard or gadgeteer or bishop can take care of that.
You don't have psion/bishop for insanity? Again, bard can help here.


Simplest advice for you is to get some CC spells (whether on lvl ups or buying books), learn by trial and error mobs resistances (no need to invest in mythology for that), and you will be fine.

 

[gunman]

I am ok with fighting 2-3 mobs on the road, but having to fight 5 or more is a bit too much. I have never seen a game trying to punish you so much for going from A to B. Even if I manage to fight my way and win every battle, this will probably cost all my consumables, and using all your resources just to reach your destination feels wrong.

I was hoping for a skill or spell like invisibility in other games that lets you sneak past monsters. It looks like Chameleon is such a spell. Unfortunately it seems neither this nor the CC spell Insanity is available to my party, because I am running a pretty classic party with a Mage and a Priest.

What about running away after the combat starts? Can you use some consumables or spells that will increase the chance of escaping?

 

[Piotrovitz]

Fights in the open areas, like roads, are usually the toughest - without chokepoint you can get instantly surrounded, which most likely will lead to you casters/squishies certain death. That's why if you spot any mob pack on the open road, rush to the nearest corner and lure them there - that way you will fight only 1-3 of them at the time, instead of full pack, of say 6.

Chameleon spell also comes in a potion form, but usually you can spot the mobs way before they spot you and easily avoid them. It just lets you come closer to them without being detected.

I think there is an option to run away after the combat starts - you just turn around and each turn run as far as you can get. Most mobs are slower than you, so after getting far enough, they will stop chasing you and the combat ends. But I may be wrong, since I never did that.

What party are you rolling with?
Maybe the problem is that you just lack pure dmg dealers and focused too much on hybrid classes?

 

[Shackleton]

One of my enduring memories of my two playthroughs of Wizardry 8 was jamming my party into tiny jagged cracks around the edge of the Arnika road map so mobs could only attack one at a time.

The other one was the seemingly endless hordes of Rapax later on. Good times.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Hide in crevices, my man.

 

[Invictus]

And lastly in Trenton there is a Cursed sword called Bloodlust on the bank vaults that makes the wielder cursed with a permanent Berserker spell so they always do triple damage

Sword is in Arnika, and it does triple dmg only for Rogues, and only in case the attack is thrust (which gives x2 dmg from backstab), and not swing. Then the backstab and berserk attack adds up, giving x3 dmg. Give it to any other class and you only get x2 from berserk.

On delaying levels - I never understand this bullshit. Are people deliberately delay level ups just to avoid bit tougher mobs? This is retarded, especially in case of casters, where level up means access to higher level spells, which makes fights easier and easier.

On CC vs DD - like in almost every cRPG, CC is the king, but I think too many people are dismissing DD in Wiz 8.
Sure, late game DD fall behind in favour of CC and instakill spells, but early/mid game they are actually useful and makes things easier, i.e fireball or magic missiles against savant troops/higardis/plants/ants/etc, or shrill sound against wasps.

As for party composition - as someone said, the game is beatable with any party, and that's the part of it's class system diversity awesomeness. There is no class that is irreplaceable.
You don't have a priest for magic screen or armorplate? Bard or gadgeteer or bishop can take care of that.
You don't have psion/bishop for insanity? Again, bard can help here.


Simplest advice for you is to get some CC spells (whether on lvl ups or buying books), learn by trial and error mobs resistances (no need to invest in mythology for that), and you will be fine.

Delaying levels is very simple; level gains are not tied to skills so you can have a character with several levels but very poorly developed skills other than their main weapon or magic skill thus you have a gimped character on the long run... so you delay leveling up so your character can be more developed skills and make sure they are ready for the tougher battles at higher levels
It is kind of meta gaming but frankly on par to what I have done with earlier Wizardry game to make sure my character develop how I wanted them
You might think it is retarded I guess then DraQ, Octavious, Mond Blut and others like me are retarded and you undoubtedly are the god of gaming you believe yourself to be

 

[gunman]

What party are you rolling with?
Maybe the problem is that you just lack pure dmg dealers and focused too much on hybrid classes?

I had a party made of pretty standard classes: Fighter, Lord, Ranger, Gadgeteer, Priest, Mage (+ recruited Rogue and Valkyrie)
I try to not rest at all, and just replenish my health/mana with consumables. Even with this, I had mobs spawn just outside the range of radar (moving forward and then backward a few steps revealed new enemies).

 

[Strange Fellow]

I try to not rest at all, and just replenish my health/mana with consumables.

That's just silly. Why aren't you resting?

 

[Piotrovitz]

Delaying levels is very simple; level gains are not tied to skills so you can have a character with several levels but very poorly developed skills other than their main weapon or magic skill thus you have a gimped character on the long run... so you delay leveling up so your character can be more developed skills and make sure they are ready for the tougher battles at higher levels
It is kind of meta gaming but frankly on par to what I have done with earlier Wizardry game to make sure my character develop how I wanted them
You might think it is retarded I guess then DraQ, Octavious, Mond Blut and others like me are retarded and you undoubtedly are the god of gaming you believe yourself to be

The question is, why are you doing this?

Wiz 8 is significantly easier than previous ones and there is absolutely no need for level squatting. I don't consider myself a pro - I rarely play cRPGs these times and e.g Wiz 7 totally kicks my ass and always leads to rage quit. Wiz 8 I finished on normal and expert, without any metagaming knowledge though, which means it's easy enough if you know what you're doing.

I have no idea why would anyone do this - guess there are two angles:
1. Powergaming one - you get a hard on while fighting rattkins in Trynton with your lvl 6 fighters having 100s in sword and close combat.
2. Wimp one - you level squat because you're afraid of tougher mobs that start appearing after certain threshold. You know, like you're one of those people advising not to hit lvl 5 before Arnika road.

 

[Piotrovitz]

I had a party made of pretty standard classes: Fighter, Lord, Ranger, Gadgeteer, Priest, Mage (+ recruited Rogue and Valkyrie)

You will be fine in the long run - I guess it's the gadgeteer who is dragging you down a bit, as actually useful gadgets are available from mid-game. The low level omnigun also suck ass.

 

[ghostdog]

 

[gunman]

The problem is you can't if the group is blocking your way. The road is not wide enough to go around them.

 

[Hobo Elf]

You could just try sprinting through to the end while in combat.

 

[Desiderius]

Are people not class hopping in 8?

 

[gunman]

You could just try sprinting through to the end while in combat.

I will try that.

Examining the spell list, I think I will replace the Mage with an Alchemist. The spells Chameleon or Set Portal/Return to Portal seem to make life a lot easier.