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Why D&D 2e is the BEST edition ever.

Cryomancer

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TL;DR list :
  • High lethality. No "cr 2" monsters capable of soaking cannon balls like on 5e. Nor high level enemies that aren't threatening.
  • Low easy to track numbers
  • Class diversity with kits
  • Class restrictions on races. Eg - Manlets like Dwarves, Hobbits halflings can't be glorious magic users
  • The best settings was written for 2e. Mystara? Dark Sun? Ravenloft/Domains of Dread? Spelljammer? Planescape? A lot of glorious iconic settings comes on 2e. After WoTC bought D&D, the unique memorable setting that we got is Eberron.
  • Kits instead of prestige classes
  • No BS tier / power spikes
  • Multiclass is discouraged.
Now a detailed explanation.

  • High lethality

I just don't get the point of low lethality on RPG's. Spending long rounds in a single encounter is not fun or engaging. A high lethality game will force the players to be more careful, think more and see enemies as a much bigger threat. Lets pick two level 16 "mages". On 2e, he would have 9d4 + 7 hit points and the maximum con mod is mere +1. At best, he would have on average 9(d4+1) + 7 or 38,5 hp on AVERAGE. on 5e in other hands, the same mage would have 16*d6+16*con mod. And with 18 CON, he would have 120 average hp(16*3,5+16*4). On 2e, Vecna, the demigod Lich in high epic levels had 150 hp. Enemies also has too much hp on 5e. And spells deal and weapons way less damage.

For eg, a Ogre on 2e would have 30 hp on average. On 5e, 59. Virtually the double. An siege weaponry on 5e like a cannon deal 10d6 damage. Meaning that CR 2 creatures can soak a cannon shot. I can get high level legendary creatures soaking siege weapons, but low level monsters? A player, a lv 6 "magic user" also can soak a cannon shot if he has high CON and rolled high on his hit dice rolls. That is insane.

You see streams about a lich fight on 2e, and the high level party is at fear, preparing escape plans before they even encounter the lich, laying traps and on 5e, a mid level party had no problem defeating a lich.

  • NUMBERS

Is much easier to track low numbers than high numbers. Mainly on P&P. The saves are easy to track. hit points and etc too. Many people complain about THAC0, but THAC0 is a simple variable to track. With the optional rule of different AC's for different types of armor, still easy to track. Is not like on 3.5e where you sum +2, +4, +1, +1(...) and if has 4 attacks per turn, has 4 different attack bonuses. Nor like 5e where the difference between a lv 1 hero and a lv 20 hero is just +4/20% more likely to hit.

Same with saves, at very high levels on 3.5e, you have things like DC 30+ VS a FORT save of +23. With 2e saves, you need to roll at least a number of a d20. Much easy to track. Some spells like finger of death makes the enemy do the save at disadvantage of -2. It also makes specializations for magic users more interesting. Since if you wanna a hard to resist finger of death, you must specialize in necromancy. You can't be a generalist wizard with two feats and get a harder to hit spell.

  • CLASS RESTRICTIONS :

Manlet races should't be allowed to be magic users. When I mean manlet races, think on classes that can't be over 6 feet tall, like halflings, dwarf and so on. Races that are a bit smaller than humans such as elves but some of then can be over six feet are fine. The exception to that rule is gnomes and 2e did it right. Gnomes must be illusionists. Because they are all about creating illusions to steal money from non gnomes.
HNsGkYS.png



It is a central point of certain conflicts and reason which some places in Mystara like Glantri threats this manlet races so bad.

  • 2E BROUGHT THE BEST SETTINGS.

Dark Sun, a High fantasy mad max, Ravenloft for horror settings, in many different places(not only Strahd), high fantasy space adventures on spelljammer, sigil city and planar travels on planescape. Mystara with a lot of unique and interesting locations and Immortals instead of Gods? Everything made for 2e. The unique good setting brought by Wizards of the Coast is Eberron. 5e and late stages of 3.5e are extremely focused on Forgotten realms and even worse. In Sword Coast. Which is IMO one of the most boring places to adventure.

  • CLASSES

Instead of prestige classes used on 3.5e, 2e had the concept of kits. And of course, the DM has entire power to not allow a player to pick any kit, class or whatever. You can multiclass on 2e, but it makes leveling extremely slower. If Red wizards of Thay existed on 2e, they would be magic user kits. Same with sorcerers. In fact, warlocks and witches appeared firstly as a magic user kit on complete wizard's handbook.

2e7fFF8.png

  • NO BS POWER SPIKES / TIERS

5e bought the concept of tiers, from "local heroes" to heroes of the world. Which is completely BS. A lich can be a threat to a small village and be defeated by high level adventurers, high level adventure doesn't need to be save the world adventures. In fact, levels varies a lot among the different "realms". For example, Lord NAsher is extremely powerful in Neverwinter as a lv 12 fighter. A lv 12 fighter in Dark Sun can't even dream on dealing with the servants of the Sorcerers kings. 2e uses "acomplished" to refer to many lv 13~16 casters. What is high level in one adventure can be low level in another. In Mystara, in order to ascend to a Immortal, the PC needs to be at least lv 36.

The first edition decided to establishes that when a magic user reaches lv 11, he gains a "title" of Wizard. It was dropped in the 2e cuz what is a high level in one setting can be a mid level or even low level in another. And other problem of this tiers brought by 4e into 5e, is that it creates huge power spikes. You get more power from lv 4 to 5 than from lv 1 to 4 on 5e. When I asked about low or mid level in a thread, many people used 5e to say that high level sucks and used the tier system of 5e as argument that high level are godlike adventures. This idea of tiers and high level = larger conflict will hurt RPG's from a long time...

  • The ART of 2e is much better.

Just compare the same module art on 2e and on 5e.

XPuyR4M.png


ykdYlaR.png
 
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Cryomancer

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But, kits are gay, and nobody wants to play a 2E cleric.

Nope. Kits are a good way to enforce role play mechanic and narrative wise.

2E clerics are the fucking worst POS ever created

Compared to 3E where they are better blaster than a evoker wizard, better tank than any fighters and better with buffs + shapeshift in heavy armor with ludicrous HP?

2E is a huge component of what makes the IE games so timeless for me.

2e is rarely played on table top but I an happy that 2E ruleset at least lives in video game adaptations. Not only IE games, SSI games are also very great.
 

aleph

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Haven't you made enough threads where you show off how you have no idea how 5E works because you have ... well .. never actually played it?
 

Cryomancer

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Haven't you made enough threads where you show off how you have no idea how 5E works because you have ... well .. never actually played it?

I don't wanna to play 5e. Sorry but HP bloat is already a big problem in a computer, I don't wanna play a TT game where a Ogre can soak a cannon ball and a Goblin can soak a longbow shot.
 

Mortmal

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Haven't you made enough threads where you show off how you have no idea how 5E works because you have ... well .. never actually played it?

I don't wanna to play 5e. Sorry but HP bloat is already a big problem in a computer, I don't wanna play a TT game where a Ogre can soak a cannon ball and a Goblin can soak a longbow shot.

For the hundreth time there's no HP bloat in 5E. I am old so its ok for me to repeat the same things, but you are a young man.
 
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Thac0

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Haven't you made enough threads where you show off how you have no idea how 5E works because you have ... well .. never actually played it?

I don't wanna to play 5e. Sorry but HP bloat is already a big problem in a computer, I don't wanna play a TT game where a Ogre can soak a cannon ball and a Goblin can soak a longbow shot.

For the hundreth time there's no HP bloat in 5E. I am old so its ok for me to repeat the same things, but you are a young man.

It depends a bit on what type of monsters you deploy as a DM. There are monsters that do not have very high offensive potential but powerfull defensive options like Zombies, which can definitly drag a fight if you deploy too many. But overall if you pick your monsters well, or just pick random monsters and do not cherrypick tanks, then 5e is not a bloated or grindy game.

S0rcererV1ct0r you forget that the player is very strong in 5e. Mages no longer have true 0 turns where they just shoot a sling due to damage scaling infinite use cantrips. Martials are stronger than ever due to a honorable effort to lower caster supremacy. Defensive magic is a lot less effective for the enemy. The HP numbers may be higher, but the damage is aswell, so the fights do not take longer.

5e has some problems, but imo those lay mostly in bad out of combat skills (every character starts with +5 in what they are good in, no further specialisation possible. Roll highly RNG dependant due to low values, dumb Barbarian can frequently make an Arcana check the Wizard fails if you let him roll. Some very crucial skills missing, and odd grouping for others (performance being particularily useless).
Also 95% of 5e feats are worthless, since you have to choose either feat or ASI, and more Ability Scores are better than almost any feat, so anyone who is not a Variant Human never has any cool feats.
 

Morblot

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Haven't you made enough threads where you show off how you have no idea how 5E works because you have ... well .. never actually played it?

He admitted in another thread to not having played 2e either. Just saying.
 

Mortmal

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I may be looking for some players in a near future for some pathfinder 1 campaign the wednesday, 20 GMT+2 , text and using FG . Most of my usual group can only play the weekends . But it will be pathfinder , i cant possibly help anyone for a 2e or OSR game so far. someone else will have to help viktor.
 

Cryomancer

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no HP bloat in 5E.

If a goblin can survive a longbow shot and a orc can survive a cannon ball shot, what is?

Defensive magic is a lot less effective for the enemy.

I woudl say that non evokation magic sucks on 5e.

He admitted in another thread to not having played 2e either. Just saying.

I tried to find a group and will play S&W this saturday. Is not 2e but is close enough. I only din't played 2e due the lack of ability to find groups. But I wanna play it so much. And readed a lot of 2e books, played CRPG adaptations and watched streams of 2e.
 

Mortmal

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no HP bloat in 5E.

If a goblin can survive a longbow shot and a orc can survive a cannon ball shot, what is?

Defensive magic is a lot less effective for the enemy.

I woudl say that non evokation magic sucks on 5e.

He admitted in another thread to not having played 2e either. Just saying.

I tried to find a group and will play S&W this saturday. Is not 2e but is close enough. I only din't played 2e due the lack of ability to find groups. But I wanna play it so much. And readed a lot of 2e books, played CRPG adaptations and watched streams of 2e.

Goblin | D&D 5th Edition on Roll20 Compendium 7hp , longbow : 1D8 piercing, max damage or a crit kill it in one blow. Seems logical one headshot kill it immediately, else not.

AD&d 2E goblin has 1 Hit Die (7 hit points) longbow damage :1d8 , max damage or a crit kill it in one blow. Seems logical one headshot kill it immediately, else not.
Clearly some 5e HP bloat, drastical change of combat mechanisms , 5e is so HP bloated and dumbed down.

At some point , you have to play something with people , no matter the rulesets those arent so important . Else you are going to become completely crazy, and there i mean it seriously, you clearly show signs of losing your sanity.
 

Cryomancer

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Clearly some 5e HP bloat, drastical change of combat mechanisms , 5e is so HP bloated and dumbed down.

Well, you are comparing a goblin who rolled very high on 2e with averages on 5e. But you are right. Goblin was not an good example. My point is. How many HP does a lv 16 mage has in each game?
 

mondblut

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Mystara is OD&D. The 2e port was pretty irrelevant, mentioning it yet ignoring Greyhawk and Dragonlance?

Also, Birthright. Fucking Birthright.
 

Mortmal

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Clearly some 5e HP bloat, drastical change of combat mechanisms , 5e is so HP bloated and dumbed down.

Well, you are comparing a goblin who rolled very high on 2e with averages on 5e. But you are right. Goblin was not an good example. My point is. How many HP does a lv 16 mage has in each game?

35 hp without CON bonus in 2E for a mage, 66 hp in 5E for a wizard without CON bonus as well. That seems bloated ? Wrong ! The damage output is on par. 2E iron golem X1(only once) attack 4-40 (4D10) plus an area poison effect only every 7 rounds , 5E Iron golem CR16 X2(twice ) 20 (3D8+7), plus an area effect on recharge R6, thats likely more than once every 7 rounds potentially deadly 45 (10 D8) DC 19 save .I'll spare you the stat blocks they have pretty much same resistances.
The comparison is not even really valid, the 5e is fine tuned so you dont require many magic equipment, if anything the 2e wizard will likely have an easier time .Roughly the same spells , the same mechanisms, 5e just even out things a bit and its a good thing there's no reason a player chosing a martial character feels shitty or useless, they are here to have fun and its the DM work to make it happen . Many OSR and clones also tune it this way, DCC adding heroic actions for martials and so on.

Also if i may add you should strongly consider playing rather than sperging on high level wizard build you wont have the opportunity to play , it takes dedication a very good group, reliable players, to have a campaign lasting that long.
 
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Cryomancer

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35 hp without CON

Only a correction. 31 hp. After lv 10, you get no more hit dices, only +1 hp per level, so Minimum = 16(10+6), maximum = 46(40+6) With the con mod, which requires more CON on 2e and is capped at +1 to non fighters, that is 41 average hp even if the caster has 18 CON. But you are right in one point. I should have also took into account, the power of magical gear and defensive magic on two editions.

A mage with stoneskin on 2e can survive multiple backstabs from the back. The same doesn't happen on 5e. At lv 16, the mage would have a big arsenal of magic items protecting him, while on 5e, he could have at best 3 itens attuned.

Not everything is HP. Also magic users lost offensive power, from fireball to freezing sphere on 5e you only gain +2d6 damage from a tier 3 to tier 6 spell, but other classes like Paladin gains way more damage. Magic immunity or high resistance is far less common and the worst nightmare to casters, feeblemind is "elevated" to tier 8. So I was wrong. When you take into account all defenses that a high level magic has, even with 1 hp, he would not be easily killed. When you take defensive magic into account and magical gear, I can bet that is easier for a rogue to kill a high level 5e mage with 20 CON than a 2e mage with 4 CON.

I still don't like 5e necromancy but that is another discussion.

But one thing that I liked is that conjuration of demons is more risky than 3e. Anyway, as for level, there are campaigns which start on higher levels.

Many OSR and clones also tune it this way, DCC adding heroic actions for martials and so on.

And it is a great idea. I always said that mid and high level martial classes should be more supernatural.

EDIT : This Saturday, I will play S&W and start at lv 4.
 
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Thac0

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I woudl say that non evokation magic sucks on 5e.

Illusion is very good. Mirror Image, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility and the best utility spells in the game.
Conjuration aswell. Concentration makes summons weaker, but bounded accuracy makes them stronger. Also Conjuration still has good damage spells.

From gut feeling I'd say
Tier 1: Evocation, Conjuration, Illusion
Tier 2: Necromancy, Transmutation, Abjuration
Tier 3: Divination, Enchantment

But yeah the number of spells is deliberatly lower to combat rules creep, so some spell schools have entire levels without any decent spells.

Also pretty much every adventurer in 5e will start the game with +3 dex. So longbow with 1d8+3 against 7 hp has 62,5% chance to kill a Gobbo.

EDIT : This Saturday, I will play S&W and start at lv 4.

Gz. I hope your round is good.
 

Cryomancer

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Tier 1: Evocation, Conjuration, Illusion
Tier 2: Necromancy, Transmutation, Abjuration
Tier 3: Divination, Enchantment

On 2e, Is harder to compare. Necromancy for eg, is pretty trash on low level and pretty good in upper mid to high levels. Same with conjuration. Abjuration is a must have VS other mages. Transmutation VS physical. Divination is DM dependent and enchantment is ok for combat and the best for non combat related gameplay.

The power creep between martial and melee classes is smaller on 5e but the gap between schools is bigger IMO.


Yep. Found a great DM that enjoys most mid level content and said that till about lv 8, we will probably get a level per session. Is not 2e, but is close enough. And ascending AC, not THAC0;
 
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Mortmal

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Tier 1: Evocation, Conjuration, Illusion
Tier 2: Necromancy, Transmutation, Abjuration
Tier 3: Divination, Enchantment

On 2e, Is harder to compare. Necromancy for eg, is pretty trash on low level and pretty good in upper mid to high levels. Same with conjuration. Abjuration is a must have VS other mages. Transmutation VS physical. Divination is DM dependent and enchantment is ok for combat and the best for non combat related gameplay.

The power creep between martial and melee classes is smaller on 5e but the gap between schools is bigger IMO.


Yep. Found a great DM that enjoys most mid level content and said that till about lv 8, we will probably get a level per session. Is not 2e, but is close enough. And ascending AC, not THAC0;
Since it's your first game a few tips : Dont think of viktor the allmighty wizard, think of viktor the wizard who support the group, think group all the time. You are a hell lot more usefull casting web and grease making the other shines than doing direct damage. No one want egoistical players , write your story together.
 

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