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Wizardry Wizardry 8 - surviving high level mobs

Piotrovitz

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Novice / iron man is a weird combo.

If this is your first playthrough then I would suggest to go with normal diff and no iron man - this will give you room for mistakes and at least the fights will be challenging.
 

gunman

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I like to play iron man whenever a game has this feature.
My previous run was normal / iron man and it ended quite brutal.
Novice difficulty here feels like normal difficulty in modern games.
It should give me some room to overcome the early part of the game, while learning the ropes. In Arnika the fights are trivial indeed. Can you ramp up the difficulty later if the game become too easy?
 
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Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I did a level last night with Wiz1 -> Sam, Alc1 -> Rang, and Pri 1 -> Lord along with Bard, Gadge, and Psi and it went fine.

Thinking about overhaul mod that gives Hybrids Caster skill at lvl one.

Thoughts?
 

coldcrow

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I like to play iron man whenever a game has this feature.
My previous run was normal / iron man and it ended quite brutal.
Novice difficulty here feels like normal difficulty in modern games.
It should give me some room to overcome the early part of the game, while learning the ropes. In Arnika the fights are trivial indeed. Can you ramp up the difficulty later if the game become too easy?
You can switch difficulties whenever you like. I am not sure if it applies immediately to already spawned mobs, most likely yes.
I did a level last night with Wiz1 -> Sam, Alc1 -> Rang, and Pri 1 -> Lord along with Bard, Gadge, and Psi and it went fine.

Thinking about overhaul mod that gives Hybrids Caster skill at lvl one.

Thoughts?
If that means they get casterlevel = classlvl, then it would totally eliminate specialist casters as viable classes.
 

Hobo Elf

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I don't see how it'd make specialists non-viable since their balance remains the same, but it would be silly to not just take a hybrid in that case since they would be the same but better.
Beware, however. a Hybrid class will require a lot of skill grind to make the most out of it. Making a party of all hybrids sounds like it'd just make the game an even slower crawl.
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Mod also speeds up combat and thins out random mobs (but buffs bosses).

Main diff between hybrid and specialist is lack of Power Cast and/or exclusive casting practice/+25% bonus.
 
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Poseidon00

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Arnika Road is the game's infamous difficulty spike. I just run from encounters and level grind in Arnika itself.

Once you get some mid-tier weapons the game smoothes out a lot.

Oh, it gets easier? I had been assuming I had been making low-tier parties and kept retrying until I found it easier lol.

On the bright side I now know how most classes function before getting past Trynton. Now I want to start the trilogy from the beginning after I finish a playthrough.
 

Grampy_Bone

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My personal tips:

-You want 1-3 durable frontliners with Short range weapons. Obvious choices are Fighter/Lord/Samurai, though Ninjas, Monks, and even Rogues are effective though they take longer to bring up to par. Bards can also work on the frontline if you know where to grind all the right equipment for them but I don't really recommend that
-Fairie ninjas can use the best (short range) weapon in the game but require massive amounts of babysitting before that.
-Put 1 character on each flank with extended weapons. Valkyrie is the obvious choice with spears, but fighters and lords can use most of the same weapons, and monks work with staves. Unconventional choice: Mook Fighters can use the Blade of Giants much later in the game.
-You'll want 1 locks and traps character. Bard, Rogue, Ninja, or Gadgeteer. Just pick one. They'll also most likely need a knock-knock caster and divine trap caster to support them.
-1 Healer, 1 Support caster, 1 status-inflicter. These can overlap. Note that with effort hybrid casters can be as effective as specialists. Samurai can learn the entire mage spellbook and cast spells with the same power, Lords can be effective priests, monks can be psions, etc. It just takes longer. You can double up these roles with others if you know what you are doing. Dedicated casters can be a bit underwhelming in Wiz 8 (they die often) while melee tends to dominate.
-Direct damage spells are crap, do not build a party expecting to win by nuking things. Status effect spells are much more useful.
-Classic mage/priest combo works fine. Psionic or alchemist can sub for the mage but you'll lose access to some helpful buffs. A risky strategy is to use a Bard for support, they also have some pretty decent status effects they can spam, but they are less versatile. Gadgeteer is more of a damager/debuffer but they are inferior to a bard in all ways (omnigun is overrated AF, gadgets are worse than instruments, shut up, fuck you, I will fight you IRL over this.)
-Despite what the manual tells you a Bishop that learns all schools of magic works great. Since the amount of MP you get is based on the number of spells you know and bishops learn 4x the number of spells, they easily get 4x the amount of mana (well not quite, but they do get a lot). More mana means more casts, more casts means more skill increases, which means even more casting ability. Since many spells overlap you'll level multiple spellbooks simultaneously so it's more efficient. The only downside of a bishop is they gain experience levels really slow, otherwise they are pretty broken. I usually run one bishop and a bard/gadgeteer or other hybrid caster. 2 bishops are easy mode.
-Ranger is a comfy class since they will spot hidden items for you but ranged damage struggles to compete. Can work as a more durable alchemist.
-There are exactly 3 RPCs in the game that don't suck: a Valkyrie, Bard, and a Monk. Plan accordingly.

For stats at level up, focus every weapon-based character on Str and Dex first, then switch to Spd and Vit when maxed. You won't max more than 2-3 stats per character. Str doubles their damage and Dex gives more attacks and adds to AC. Spd also adds attacks but is less effective than Dex, and Vit is useful for everyone. Mages should do Piety and Int, then Vit and spd.
 
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Piotrovitz

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Is there a mod worth playing other than Faster Combat? DraQ

Anything good here?

http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/mods/wiz8mods.htm
AFAIK, most of those mods are usually drastically change the balance of the game, e.g add OPd gear.
The only one worth it is the Wiz+ that you mentioned in other thread. Beside dozens of small improvements it speeds up the combat better than Wiz Fast, because beside mob speed, it also speeds up the firing projectiles. This is the only mod I ever stick to while doing reruns.

Christian Coder's mod is also nice, since it adds few extra spells, that are rather balanced, but overall, Wiz+ is superior.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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If you have a mage in your party then it's a great choice for a beginner and stick with it, replacing with any other pure caster is not a good idea. The freeze spell (water realm) is hands down the best combat spell when you get it (and as a mage you get it quickly) - it shuts down enemies completely and lets you murder them in a blink of an eye due to huge bonus damage. All other spells mentioned itt don't compare: insanity that everyone always harps about is gimmicky and unreliable, blind and fear are irritating af, itching skin is whatever. Then you get quick access to enchanted blade and missile shield - both amazing spells that no other spell book has and gadgie/bard don't have them either. Mage is also the most balanced caster with buffs/debuffs/dmg and has non-nonsense skill distribution which helps with early game.

Fighter, rogue and bard are essential beginner classes. Then you need a divinity caster: priest is not a bad idea for a newbie, but valk/lord work better long term. Avoid "advanced" classes if you're having a hard time (ninja, bishop). Other than that it's a free game, although some classes feel heavily underpowered early game (all ranged classes are a good example).

Do not stall level ups - it's super cheesy and unfun. Don't grind skills - it's super cheesy and unfun. Use your eyes and a shift key and always assume you're in a gay club (keep your ass to the wall).

even Rogues
Even rogues? Rogues are crazy op when it comes to pure melee.
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Which one is Wiz+? Is that the one they were saying only goes up to 0.9? Was concerned it wouldn’t work.

I’m doing CCmod plus the two combat speeder-uppers and things seem smooth.
 

Piotrovitz

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I like to play iron man whenever a game has this feature.
My previous run was normal / iron man and it ended quite brutal.
Novice difficulty here feels like normal difficulty in modern games.
It should give me some room to overcome the early part of the game, while learning the ropes. In Arnika the fights are trivial indeed. Can you ramp up the difficulty later if the game become too easy?
I'd still advise against ironman, because even if you get the grasp of the system/mobs resistances/useful spells, and the game will become gradually more and more easy, there are some sudden difficulty spikes that can end you playthrough if you're not prepared/underlevelled, even on novice (don barlone or temple with two death knights and sorceress etc).
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
If you have a mage in your party then it's a great choice for a beginner and stick with it, replacing with any other pure caster is not a good idea. The freeze spell (water realm) is hands down the best combat spell when you get it (and as a mage you get it quickly) - it shuts down enemies completely and lets you murder them in a blink of an eye due to huge bonus damage. All other spells mentioned itt don't compare: insanity that everyone always harps about is gimmicky and unreliable, blind and fear are irritating af, itching skin is whatever. Then you get quick access to enchanted blade and missile shield - both amazing spells that no other spell book has and gadgie/bard don't have them either. Mage is also the most balanced caster with buffs/debuffs/dmg and has non-nonsense skill distribution which helps with early game.

Fighter, rogue and bard are essential beginner classes. Then you need a divinity caster: priest is not a bad idea for a newbie, but valk/lord work better long term. Avoid "advanced" classes if you're having a hard time (ninja, bishop). Other than that it's a free game, although some classes feel heavily underpowered early game (all ranged classes are a good example).

Do not stall level ups - it's super cheesy and unfun. Don't grind skills - it's super cheesy and unfun. Use your eyes and a shift key and always assume you're in a gay club (keep your ass to the wall).

even Rogues
Even rogues? Rogues are crazy op when it comes to pure melee.

Don’t sleep on Hypnotic Lure.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Rogues are crazy op

Bad weapon choice and bad early armor makes them weak and squishy compared to traditional melee classes. Once they get stealth + reflexion going and decent daggers they are buzz saws but the other melee classes get better weapons or critical strikes. Best daggers are cursed which locks them out of ranged. Rogues can certainly solo tank the frontline but I wouldn't rec that for a newbie.

The reason I say "even rogues" is because traditionally thieves are garbage in combat in Wizardry games and RPGs of that era in general, so the Wiz8 rogue stands out as being a formidable DPS class. The classic AD&D/Wizardry thief class is a back-row plinker who is mostly dead weight other than looting chests.
 

grimer

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Note that with effort hybrid casters can be as effective as specialists
i disagree. while you can train their magic skills to similar levels with enough patience, hybrids suffer a -4? penalty to caster level which means their spells are resisted more often. priest hybrids are the exception because their spells mostly affect the party.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Don’t sleep on Hypnotic Lure.
Hypnotic lure is irritating + you need psionic or gadgie to cast it. If I had a psionic (spoilers: I wouldn't) I'd be saving fire sp for haste anyway. But yeah, if you have a gadgie then why not, assuming you can stand the sound of that shit.
Bad weapon choice and bad early armor makes them weak and squishy compared to traditional melee classes. Once they get stealth + reflexion going and decent daggers they are buzz saws but the other melee classes get better weapons or critical strikes. Best daggers are cursed which locks them out of ranged. Rogues can certainly solo tank the frontline but I wouldn't rec that for a newbie.

The reason I say "even rogues" is because traditionally thieves are garbage in combat in Wizardry games and RPGs of that era in general, so the Wiz8 rogue stands out as being a formidable DPS class. The classic AD&D/Wizardry thief class is a back-row plinker who is mostly dead weight other than looting chests.
Daggers are not a bad early game/beginner choice and definitely not a bad choice overall, because you can get the best one in Arnika and they guarantee backstabs + they are clearly second best dual wield choice (with maces beating them only because of a single, late game weapon, so that's also pretty debatable). There's absolutely nothing comparable to a bloodlust/thieves dagger rogue and that's super early game - most other classes look completely pitiful next to it. They're not squishy at all (decent armor, decent hp + stealth), they level up quickly, they're the quickest to unlock ultimate skills and they just murder shit all around from start to finish. Getting locked out of ranged is not an issue and is saving the class form the classic wiz8 noob trap of trying to give everyone ranged weapons. Literally the only issue about them is that they're a bit skill starved early game, but you're still getting early mileage out of them that makes other classes look like they're trying to swing wet paper at enemies.
 

Grampy_Bone

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penalty to caster level

Even so, in gameplay the effect has never been noticeable to me, especially with power cast.

bloodlust/thieves dagger

Bloodlust is overrated. Auto-berserk is nice but its base damage is low, other high tier weapons have more than twice as much damage already, nullifying its advantage, plus more useful procs. Since Str doubles base weapon damage at 100 bloodlust really falls behind later on. Rather than being OP, thieves' backstab is the only thing that lets them keep up with other melee classes.
 

grimer

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Don’t sleep on Hypnotic Lure
do you guys know if you deal bonus damage by attacking enemies from the back (of their 3d model)? havent played wizardry 8 in a while but i remember casting hypnotic lure behind hogars to force them to turn their backs towards me so i can attack it for bonus damage.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Yes, bonus damage from attacking the ass and legs (omg itz heaven) is a thing.
Even so, in gameplay the effect has never been noticeable to me, especially with power cast.
Power cast with a hybrid?
Bloodlust is overrated.
?? Overrated compared to what? Also, its entire point is that it's not a late game weapon, it's a super early game weapon that turns anyone that can wield it into a good front liner on the spot.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Overrated compared to what?

Fang, Mauler, Light Sword, Excalibur, Giant Sword, Muramasa, Ivory Blade, Dread Spear, Cane of Corpus, Zatoichi Bo, Mystic Spears, Cane of Corpus, etc. etc.

Granted not all of those are guaranteed but Bloodlust is a sword I ditch ASAP. Base damage trumps most other things and bloodlust is too low.
 

Piotrovitz

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My inner Wiz 8 autist felt a need to comments on some of those:

-You want 1-3 durable frontliners with Short range weapons. Obvious choices are Fighter/Lord/Samurai, though Ninjas, Monks, and even Rogues are effective though they take longer to bring up to par. Bards can also work on the frontline if you know where to grind all the right equipment for them but I don't really recommend that
Yeah, 3 melees on the front are the most optimal option - from powergaming POV the best would be fighter/fighter/rogue
I usually roll with fighter/rogue/bard, sometimes swapping rogue for non-casting build of samurai, just to add some flavor.

-Fairie ninjas can use the best (short range) weapon in the game but require massive amounts of babysitting before that.
Never understood that tbh - you carry on one wimpy, first-to-die char for almost 1/3 or 1/2 of the game, just to get the most OPd weapon ever which trivializes the rest of the game.

-Put 1 character on each flank with extended weapons. Valkyrie is the obvious choice with spears, but fighters and lords can use most of the same weapons, and monks work with staves. Unconventional choice: Mook Fighters can use the Blade of Giants much later in the game.
With specific party formation you don't need reach weapons to hit front line mobs by all your melees. Having Valk in the team is highly advisable though - lots of great gear, can act as a support caster + the best class ability.

-1 Healer, 1 Support caster, 1 status-inflicter. These can overlap. Note that with effort hybrid casters can be as effective as specialists. Samurai can learn the entire mage spellbook and cast spells with the same power, Lords can be effective priests, monks can be psions, etc. It just takes longer. You can double up these roles with others if you know what you are doing.
Developing hybrids to be both good at melee and casting is not worth it - just takes too much grind, like spamming light spell etc.
Whenever I roll with hybrids (rarely, usually Samurai), I never develop their casting skills. The only exception is Valk, which doesn't not have much important skills (polearms/close combat), so you can invest in the casting-related ones.

Dedicated casters can be a bit underwhelming in Wiz 8 (they die often) while melee tends to dominate.
I don't get that feeling - they both compliment each other. Keeping casters in the back make them safe, if you don't get surrounded, and later on, they are protected from AoE spells by having constant magic screen on plus casting soul shield and element shield in the first round, which all provides ridiculous amount of spell res.

-Direct damage spells are crap, do not build a party expecting to win by nuking things. Status effect spells are much more useful.
Yeah, it was mentioned before that CC is the king, but I wouldn't underestimate early DD spells like magic missiles or fireball - they make early-mid game much more easier.

-Classic mage/priest combo works fine. Psionic or alchemist can sub for the mage but you'll lose access to some helpful buffs.
Priest is the arguably the weakest class in the game - it's 100x times better to have Valk or Priest 1/Lord X and build up their casting skills.
All you need from Priest is Armorplate and Magic Screen - the first can be learned pretty quickly by Valk/Lord, and the latter should be covered by your obligatory Bard.

A risky strategy is to use a Bard for support, they also have some pretty decent status effects they can spam, but they are less versatile. Gadgeteer is more of a damager/debuffer but they are inferior to a bard in all ways (omnigun is overrated AF, gadgets are worse than instruments, shut up, fuck you, I will fight you IRL over this.)
Bard is one of the top class imo, and the instruments provide you most crucial spells you will need (freeze flesh/insanity/heal all/armormelt/haste/etc). Plus, comparing to gadgeteer, the pace of acquiring the instruments is much more steady, while the gadgeteer blooms only late game.

-Despite what the manual tells you a Bishop that learns all schools of magic works great. Since the amount of MP you get is based on the number of spells you know and bishops learn 4x the number of spells, they easily get 4x the amount of mana (well not quite, but they do get a lot)
I though so before, since I always rolled with 2 Bishops with complimentary schools, but it seems that the extra spells you learn gives you only tiny amounts of extra MPs. The main gain comes from level ups.
Still, two Bishops with complimentary schools is the way to roll.

-Ranger is a comfy class since they will spot hidden items for you but ranged damage struggles to compete. Can work as a more durable alchemist.
Hidden items are shit, and it's not worth investing in alchemy, if you have all the crucial spells covered by your casters/bard/gadgeteer

-There are exactly 3 RPCs in the game that don't suck: a Valkyrie, Bard, and a Monk. Plan accordingly.
True, though AFAIK, Saxx doesn't want to go to many locations, so you usually end up with Vi and the android anyway.

For stats at level up, focus every weapon-based character on Str and Dex first, then switch to Spd and Vit when maxed. You won't max more than 2-3 stats per character. Str doubles their damage and Dex gives more attacks and adds to AC. Spd also adds attacks but is less effective than Dex, and Vit is useful for everyone. Mages should do Piety and Int, then Vit and spd.
Agree on the most, though I never invested in Piety for my casters - just INT/SPD/VIT

Also - agree with Zboj on everything he writes here on Rogues.
 
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Zboj Lamignat

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I don't think anyone was overrating bloodlust compared to late game/meme weapons (not all of which are necessarily better btw) so it seems like a moot point to me. And such comparisons often don't make sense on the most basic level: you're ditching bloodlust for a staff or a spear on what builds exactly?
 

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