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Epic Games Store - the console war comes to PC

Perkel

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Mar 28, 2014
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15,862
Some of these self-owns, man...

Epic made apparently (recently leaked from court case) about $9 billion in first 2 years on Fortnite. This means the "self owns" you are talking about are basically nothing in their eyes.

Nine fucking billions. And those are just 2 first years, it doesn't count rest.

Those self own are basically jump change for them.
 

Wunderbar

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Nine fucking billions. And those are just 2 first years, it doesn't count rest.
it doesn't count the rest because Fortnite makes less with each passing year. It made less than 2 billions in 2019, and something tells me it made even less in 2020 due to the game being removed from applestore.
 

Perkel

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it doesn't count the rest because Fortnite makes less with each passing year. It made less than 2 billions in 2019, and something tells me it made even less in 2020 due to the game being removed from applestore.

Dude $2 billion is still more than any other game released in same year not counting mobile/microgames. $2 billion is enough money to make 10 GTA5s. Which is why $9 in 2 years was completely insane.

Those 3 extra zeroes at the end of million really makes a difference

 

Wunderbar

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it doesn't count the rest because Fortnite makes less with each passing year. It made less than 2 billions in 2019, and something tells me it made even less in 2020 due to the game being removed from applestore.

Dude $2 billion is still more than any other game released in same year not counting mobile/microgames. $2 billion is enough money to make 10 GTA5s.

Those 3 extra zeroes at the end of million really makes a difference:


they know they can't just live off Fortnite and Unreal engine for eternity, that's why they've made EGS. The problem is that instead of making EGS actually good they are just bribing indie devs and greedy publishers, and it seems like this strategy doesn't work. No one buys stuff from EGS except for certain weirdos like you, everyone either ignore it and wait for a delayed Steam release, or register only to claim freebies.

Epic: "creates a shit store and makes industry worse by bribing and buying exclusivity deals"
EGS: "underperforms anyway"
Perkel: "who cares if it underperforms, the company still makes a ton of money! stupid steamtards hurr durr"
 

Perkel

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Epic: "creates a shit store and makes industry worse by bribing and buying exclusivity deals"
EGS: "underperforms anyway"
Perkel: "who cares if it underperforms, the company still makes a ton of money! stupid steamtards hurr durr"

lol "underperforms" by compared to what ?

Epic so far is the only successful competition Steam has that managed to make milions of users even download their client. All rest is basically no competition.

If you look closely at their numbers you see that some of their free games increased their UNIQUE new accounts by something like 5-8% of total base. Find me any company and give them choice to increase amount of people looking at them by 8% just by spending say 500k. They will be lining up like crazy.

Moreover old people might not change easily their tastes but young people do. For them difference between Steam and Epic is like between getting for free games and not getting them. Why would you even use Steam if you don't have library of games there ? They are playing the long game and they have money for it.

After 5 years of promos those young people will not even look at steam because they will be at the same place you are. Library full of games in Epic store and all their friends in it vs steam garbage store that gives you nothing and no one is there.

I have young brother around 14. For him and his friends steam basically doesn't exist anymore. Most of his games are in Epic store and he constantly uses it because wait for it... people actually like free games and Epic delivers WEEKLY.

so yeah steamtards be steamtards and all of that.
 

Perkel

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Steam sooner or later will have to compete. I will be awesome to watch you when they will start to offer free games or do some crazy promos.

You will be seething in your shoping cart as proper steamtard.

I'd like to know how much they paid for GTAV

Probably not that much.

Rockstart makes shitload of money on micros and if you consider Fornite can do 9B then GTA5 on those sharkcard sprobably is doing even more than that. So the 150mln copies sold is basically nothing right now compared to micro money.

So the more copies they push like that they more micro people buy.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,543
Perkel's young brother ("around 14", it's normal to not know your brother's age, all you need to know is that egs is doing khraaazeeey numbers, ok) doesn't use steam.

It's over for steamtards.

OVER!
 

Perkel

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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
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Perkel's young brother ("around 14", it's normal to not know your brother's age, all you need to know is that egs is doing khraaazeeey numbers, ok) doesn't use steam.

It's over for steamtards.

OVER!

^^

unknown.png
 

Perkel

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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
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I really wonder about 2020 numbers. 2018 numbers were basically start of store which didn't even had proper store layout and everything was made via duct tape.
 

ultimanecat

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Mar 19, 2015
Messages
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Not sure why it’s on the chart but they probably included a 2033 giveaway when they made their deal for Exodus.


I know the documents are court-related but this isn’t laid out to make much sense. So for BL3, Epic guaranteed Take-Two $80 mil in sales, and also gave them $20 mil just for taking the deal, and contributed $15 mil to marketing the game...

...and then states a net revenue for Epic of $9.2 mil after their cut of 12% of 77 mil sales on the store. So, actually, Epic only lost $26 mil on the BL3 deal! (after you factor in that Epic spent $35 mil to sweeten the pot and advertise the game for Take-Two) If you do the math, Epic paid around $30 per new account sign-up from BL3, so assuming every one of those new accounts spends at least $250 on EGS in the future and never claims more free shit or coupons, they’re well on their way to making money on this deal.
 

Perkel

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Messages
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...and then states a net revenue for Epic of $9.2 mil after their cut of 12% of 77 mil sales on the store. So, actually, Epic only lost $26 mil on the BL3 deal! (after you factor in that Epic spent $35 mil to sweeten the pot and advertise the game for Take-Two) If you do the math, Epic paid around $30 per new account sign-up from BL3, so assuming every one of those new accounts spends at least $250 on EGS in the future and never claims more free shit or coupons, they’re well on their way to making money on this deal.

By far the biggest point of it is to make people use their store. Because that is the real problem when it comes to consumers. Free games are fine but you are talking about older games that someone might not actually want.

On other hand new "exclusive" game like BD3 forces people to use their store. Once they commit "sin" not using Steam once whole "steam is my only store" goes away much like someone buying second console after first instantly loses fanboy in them.

That is the unaccounted thing here that matters the most. It is not just new accounts but mind share. Once people start to use Epic store Steam instantly loses its "default" store that gives them the most users and releases.

Epic openly said that there will be more "exclusives" coming and free games. It is clear watching numbers that this is the way to go if you want to compete with Steam.
 

Shadowfang

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Aug 27, 2009
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Road to Arnika
Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
Thanks to Epic I didn't have to pirate Tranny to try it until I was bored to death with it and I can also claim that even though I own POE I never played it since the BETA.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Perkel's young brother ("around 14", it's normal to not know your brother's age, all you need to know is that egs is doing khraaazeeey numbers, ok) doesn't use steam.

It's over for steamtards.

OVER!
I have a younger brother (or sister, I don't know LOL) who is only using Itch.io. It's over for Steam!

The younger generation doesn't want just a store. They want the community, they want to see that stupid icon pop up that their friend is playing a game, where they can join. They want the splash screen that there is an event going on for their favourite game.

Epic might be playing the long game, but in that case they should really start playing the game at all, because right now they are just burning money. Hurr-durr, they got a lot of new sign-ups to their client because of the free games. Doesn't mean anything if those sign-ups are not regular visitors to their stores.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,543
I have a nephew (happens to be "around 14") who uses epic to play fortnite and uses steam to play among us, hoi4, war thunder etc with his friends. I even got him to play aoe2 de with me and he enjoys it. He also plays minecraft, games on switch and probably lots of other stuff as well. This is the reality for kids today, they are surrounded by easily accessible, cheap games and mostly go with latest fads that they can enjoy and talk about with their friends. Like I said previously, if you opened an online shop 15 years ago and offered some free pity-buy tier games mixed with mediocre ones from time to time, a lot of people would shit their pants. Right now it's like "ok dude". Epic doesn't seem to care about it it, anyway, they are obviously focusing on investors, devs and publishers, not consumers. Whether it's a working strategy or not is rather unclear at this point, but it seems like a short-sighted one to me. They might have heaps of money to burn (which is what they're literally doing more often than not), but there will come a time when they'll want to make a business out of it. Having groomed a population of people who are with you because you conditioned them to get super favorable deals and freebies all the time seems like something that could easily backfire.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.pcgamer.com/tim-sweeney...aordinary-division-2-fraud-on-the-epic-store/

Tim Sweeney apologized to Ubisoft in 2019 for 'extraordinary' Division 2 fraud on the Epic Store
Epic was forced to halt Ubisoft transactions on its storefront after Division 2 fraud rates surpassed 70%.

In April 2019, Epic Games announced a raft of new account security features that were planned to roll out later in the year, including email verification of new accounts and two-factor authentication. At the time, it seemed like a natural (if overdue) evolution of the Epic Games Store, but emails presented today as part of the Epic v. Apple lawsuit reveal that Epic's barebones account system was causing more headaches than we realized.

The email chain indicates that Epic's trouble was twofold: Fake accounts were easy to make, and it couldn't deactivate games on other storefronts—the so-called "clawback" option—which meant that games remained playable through Uplay even when the associated Epic account was deactivated.

"We believe fraud to be due to account re-selling being viable," Epic COO Daniel Vogel wrote at the time. "Fraudster creates Uplay account, uses stolen CC to purchase The Division, and then sells the account. While Epic account gets disabled by chargeback, without clawback with Ubisoft the game is still available on Uplay and sold account works."

Epic's Scott Adams was blunter in his criticism of the store. "Doesn't help that we don't currently verify email address or have good account security," he wrote.

The rate of fraudulent purchases reach a point that in May 2019, Epic was forced to disable purchases of The Division 2 and Anno 1800, and eventually all Ubisoft games.

At the time, it sounded like a relatively routine technical problem—Epic said it was "experiencing issues with our UPlay integration"—but another email surfaced in the Apple trial reveals that it was driven by "extraordinary" rates of fraudulent purchases of The Division 2 on the Epic Store. The problem was bad enough that Epic CEO Tim Sweeney emailed a personal apology to Ubisoft CEO Yves Guillemot.

"In the past 48 hours, the rate of fraudulent transactions on Division 2 surpassed 70%, and was approaching 90%," Sweeney wrote on May 11, 2019, the same day Epic halted purchases on Ubisoft games. "Sophisticated hackers were creating Epic accounts, buying Ubisoft games with stolen credit cards, and then selling the linked Uplay accounts faster than we were disabling linked Uplay purchases for fraud.

"Fraud rates for other Epic Games store titles are under 2% and Fortnite is under 1%. So 70% fraud was an extraordinary situation."

Sweeney said Epic would restore Ubisoft game purchases as soon as possible, but warned that it would likely take at least two weeks to implement the systems required to make that possible. As Epic did in the tweet, he also took full responsibility for the problem, and promised that "all of the minimum revenue guarantees remain in place to ensure our performance," effectively guaranteeing that Ubisoft wouldn't take a loss because of the problem.

The legal slapfight between Apple and Epic is a big one, with potentially major consequences for the way programs are bought and sold online. But it's also revealed some entirely unrelated but still very interesting facts, including that Walmart was (and maybe still is) working on its own cloud gaming service, that Epic spent more than $11 million over nine months on free games, and that in the grand scheme of things that amount was chump change because Fortnite, all by itself, earned more than $9 billion over 2018-19.

https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-games-has-spent-at-least-dollar1-billion-on-exclusives/

Epic Games has spent at least $1 billion on exclusives
Previously confidential documents offer more proof of Epic’s sledgehammer approach to gaining marketshare.

As of September 2019, Epic Games had signed up 105 exclusives for the Epic Games Store, amounting to a total of just over $1 billion spent securing them. That’s according to documents released as part of the ongoing Epic vs. Apple trial, which is unearthing some very interesting business dealings indeed.

In its October 2019 ‘Review of Performance and Strategy’ document (hosted here as a .pdf), it’s reiterated that Epic spent $444 million on its 2019 exclusive launches: we already knew that. But it also confirms that $542 million was spent on 2019 launch exclusives, while—as of September 2019—it had already spent $52 million securing four exclusives for 2021. Naturally, that number will have increased since.

It’s hardly breaking news that Epic Games is throwing a heck of a lot of money at its PC storefront, but $1 billion on exclusive launches—most of them timed, as they usually come to Steam after 12 months—is a startling number. Far more startling than the $11 million it spent between December 2018 and September 2019 on its free games offerings, which seems fairly miniscule given how many new account sign-ups it cultivated.

The exclusives will likely continue, too. According to Epic’s “Aggressive Pursuit Model”—that is, the model they’ll follow if things are going well—it’ll aim for 52 exclusives in 2021, 36 in 2022, 34 in 2023 and 34 in 2024. Given that Epic told us earlier this year that it’s doubling down on exclusive launches, it looks like they’re following that model.

https://www.pcgamer.com/borderlands-3-exclusivity-cost-epic-dollar115-million/

Borderlands 3 exclusivity cost Epic $115 million
That's a lot of V-bucks.

The Epic v Apple lawsuit that began this week has given us an impressive collection of corporate documents to sift through, almost like some kind of box containing loot. Within a review of performance and strategy dated October 25, 2019, there's a section on the Borderlands 3 deal, disclosing that the looter-shooter's six-month exclusivity period cost Epic $115 million.

That includes a $15 million marketing commitment, $20 million in non-recoupable fees, and an $80 million minimum guarantee—an advance paid ahead of the game going on sale. Borderlands 3 sold well enough to reach that guarantee within two weeks, with a recoupable revenue of $100 million in the period. A graph of the Epic store's daily revenue across its first 11 months peaks dramatically with its launch. Of the 1.56 million Borderlands players Epic picked up in those two weeks, 53% were apparently new to the store rather than returning customers.

The document also shows that Epic paid $11 million for its free giveaway of the Handsome Collection, a bundle containing Borderlands 2, the Pre-Sequel, and most of their DLC (excluding Commander Lilith & the Fight for Sanctuary, released after the collection was created). That one freebie cost almost as much as Epic spent on the first nine months of giveaways, which it paid more than $11 million for.
Among the other revelations the court case has brought, we learned that Epic has spent at least $1 billion on exclusives so far, Tim Sweeney apologized to Ubisoft for the amount of fraud related to The Division 2 on Epic's store, and if you don't check the settings on your conference call you might end up with a bunch of Fortnite kids going nuts in a court case.
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-appare...r200m-for-first-party-playstation-exclusives/

Epic apparently offered Sony $200M for first-party PlayStation exclusives
Microsoft has been less receptive to the Epic Games Store, and Nintendo was seemingly a non-starter.

The Epic v Apple trial keeps delivering interesting information, particularly about deals and spending related to the Epic Games Store. We've learned, for example, that in 2019 and 2020 Epic promised about $1 billion in advances for exclusives, including $115 million for Borderlands 3. A new trial exhibit—which was apparently released accidentally—shows that Epic offered Sony a $200 million advance to get first-party PlayStation games on the Epic Games Store exclusively.

We don't know what kind of deal Epic and Sony may have arrived at, as the document in question was made before any handshake. It says that Epic offered Sony "$200M MG+ for 4-6 titles" and was awaiting Sony's response. "MG" surely stands for "minimum guarantee," which is how Epic refers to these exclusivity deals: It's the minimum revenue Epic guarantees a game publisher will make with an Epic Games Store exclusive, whether or not their game actually sells enough to cover it.

The wording is somewhat ambiguous: Is it $200M per game, or $200M for all 4-6 games? It depends on the specific games, surely, and so far only two Sony-published games have released exclusively on the Epic Store: ReadySet Heroes and Predator: Hunting Grounds. One hopes Epic didn't put down $200M for Predator: Hunting Grounds, and $200M for both wouldn't make sense, either. Either a totally different deal was struck in the end, or those two games are part of a bigger batch of Sony-published exclusives coming to the Epic Games Store. (ReadySet Heroes remains exclusive, by the way, while Predator: Hunting Grounds has since released on Steam following a year of exclusivity.)

Other Sony-published games have released on the Epic Games Store, just not exclusively. Horizon Zero Dawn launched on the Epic Games Store and Steam simultaneously, and the upcoming PC release of Days Gone will do the same. If I had to guess, the original $200M pitch targeted those games, not ReadySet Heroes, but it's just a guess.

There's still no sign that Sony's flagship games, such as the Uncharted and God of War games, are coming to PC at all. An exclusive Epic Games Store release of Bloodborne would certainly be a win for Epic, and would start to make the $200 million figure more sensible, but we haven't heard anything on that front, I'm afraid.

Epic and Sony don't always see eye-to-eye (they had a bit of an argument over crossplay), but they are pretty tight. The PlayStation company even owns a bit of Epic: Sony put $200 million into the business recently, and invested $250 million last year. Sony's clearly got the ear of Epic CEO and controlling shareholder Tim Sweeney, and vice versa.

As for Microsoft, Epic's initial talks apparently turned up resistance. The document notes that the head of Xbox Game Pass for PC didn't like what Epic was up to with its store, and that Microsoft viewed Epic as a company it was competing with to sign games. It also mentions that Xbox head Phil Spencer and Valve boss Gabe Newell were having meetings at the time.

No surprise there: Microsoft quite openly backed Valve when it started putting its games on Steam again, including the Halo Master Chief Collection.

As for getting Nintendo games on the Epic Games Store, there may not even have been an attempt. The document describes the idea as a "moonshot" and "non-starter." Sounds about right.

This document snippet was retrieved from the Box folder where Epic and Apple's attorneys have been uploading exhibits. It was deleted after being uploaded, but Resetera poster Raigor grabbed it (they've grabbed other now-deleted documents from the folder). I didn't peep the folder in time to see the document myself, but surprising as it may seem, such a mistake has become expected during the first week of the Epic v Apple trial. On day one, Apple uploaded a ton of documents that it didn't mean to, which is how we learned about some of Epic's other dealings.

I've contacted Epic, and will update this story if it provides more context or denies that it made such an offer to Sony. I'm confident the snippet is real because of its relative mundanity—compared to, say, the email in which Sweeney apologizes to Ubisoft—and what I know about Epic's deals.

One point of clarification: As I mentioned, when Epic 'buys' an exclusivity deal, it's really guaranteeing the game's publisher a minimum amount of revenue. If the minimum guarantee is $200 million, Epic can break even on the deal if it makes that $200 million back in sales of the game, which is called recoupment. During recoupment, Epic may be taking 100% of the revenue. I haven't seen that spelled out anywhere, but it wouldn't be an uncommon deal. (See how game publishing deals work for context.) Once Epic recouped the advance, the normal Epic Games Store 12/88 split would likely kick in.

The breakdown of the Borderlands deal, however, revealed that only a portion of these exclusivity deals counts as recoupable. Along with an $80 million minimum guarantee for Borderlands 3 (which Epic easily recouped), Epic paid $15 million in marketing and a $20 million non-recoupable fee, meaning Epic had to make that money back through the normal revenue split. The point is that any Epic Games Store exclusivity deal we hear about may include stipulations we aren't aware of, unless we get an itemized receipt like we did with Borderlands 3.

In related news, I've written a breakdown of what the Epic v Apple trial is all about, because there is a trial going on, not just a bunch of interesting documents accidentally being uploaded to a Box folder by attorneys.
 

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