Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

Decado

Old time handsome face wrecker
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
2,544
Location
San Diego
Codex 2014
Also the narrator was bad and had terrible enunciation.

ETA: To be clear, the woman who did the narration was the person who played Ellie in TLOU. So clearly, she knows how to voice act. But for some reason the narration for this game was fucking terrible, especially in the beginning. Just awful.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,136
Also the narrator was bad and had terrible enunciation.

ETA: To be clear, the woman who did the narration was the person who played Ellie in TLOU. So clearly, she knows how to voice act. But for some reason the narration for this game was fucking terrible, especially in the beginning. Just awful.
Damn right, the tone was terribly mismatched, Deadfire should've had Disciples 2's narrator.

 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
That leaves 8. Overbalanced and bland systems. Attribute and skill improvement are linear and percentage based. Not fun. Spells are indistinguishable, short-duration and impossible to read during battles. Not fun. Skill and spell effects are invisible or lost in the blur of a thousand effects going off at once. You can't even tell if a level 8 nuke went off. Not fun. You win by inflicting 78 small hits rather than 3 big hits. Not fun. Since builds are so ability-based, you have to micromanage the shit out of all your party members

Well said. All reasons are good reasons but the excessive focus on balance created a game which is more akin to a "4e spiritual successor of infinity engine" instead of a true spiritual successor to the infinity engine. He was so focused on making a "tactical game" and "solving IE problems" and forgot that the main point of games is to have fun and that most fantasy RPG appeal is escapism.

Not that ridiculous meme again.
:deadhorse:

For example, on my thread about lethality on RPG's, someone mentioned sawyer reason to destroy that spell > https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/what-is-the-point-of-low-lethality.138265/#post-7278552
Josh Sawyer said:
Take something like the classic spell Disintegrate from A/D&D. In older editions, this was a total win/loss spell. If the target failed the save, it died, flat out. People effectively used this as an effective degenerate tactic against many difficult enemies in Infinity Engine games. The first spell cast would be Disintegrate. If the target made its save, the player would just reload and try again.

The appeal of "disintegrate", it to disintegrate stuff. Doesn't matter if it is from a spell, superpower, sci fi weapon or wathever. Save scumming is a player choice, if the player wanna save scum is his choice. The best RPG's are unbalanced. Seeing enemies being reduced into dust is fun. Being hit by it too. Micromanaging for long hours is not fun.

Funny you should mention that. Cause that's basically what it does to most normal enemies in PoE. It may not be instant, but it is very much a death sentence on normal mobs (and also can kill debuffed bosses).
:butthurt:
 

MrMarbles

Cipher
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
438
How about some constructive input man instead of just repeating that others are wrong, that POE is hot sauce and mindlessly labeling divergent opinions retarded?
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
An objective example of systems design arrogance:

The successful games like BG and NWN that are real-time with pause RPGs, are built upon a turn-based system. Instead of assuming that you should try to design a RTwP system whole-cloth with combat timings defined in terms of milliseconds like some sort of RTS, maybe start by defining an enjoyable turn-based system.

Would be smarter from a business perspective honestly, because that gives you a product that can be sold as a PnP book, and you have the option to test/iterate the design before it is implemented in-game. But more importantly, it is a truer path to create a spiritual successor because it uses the same building blocks.

The approach Soyer used is similar to swapping out the 2D backgrounds for a 3D-real-time rendered environment. Something is lost with the change. A deviation obvious enough that they couldn't get away with it for the graphics, but easier to hide in systems that need to be played to be fully understood.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
  • The world is a confusing mess to navigate. I'm all for open world exploration but look at something like the The Witcher 3 for inspiration here -- gate off a small tutorial area that takes 3-4 hours to get through so the player actually has a sense of what the fuck is going on, where they are, etc.

You mean like.. that starting island that lasts about 3 - 6 hours before it lets you on a ship?

:hmmm:

What the fuck are you talking about? The tutorial section of the game is like 40 minutes long.

If you rush it.. sure.. but on POTD fighting through the Digsite area alone - easily an hour, the beach area takes good 30 mins to explore, again if you know where your going and the island as a whole is roughly 3ish if you actually read any of the dialogue..

Sorry, pause here - what was your argument again?

TBH - This feels like a weak ass pivot off your original moronic statement.. feels like reaching a bit on this whole pedantic little "muh 20 second tutorial" argument.




Pfbfbf :lol:


Started New Vegas over from scratch and knowing it so well with the DLCs am enjoying it so much. What a wonderfully complex and nuanced roleplaying game.

I can scarcely believe that the person who created this also had something to do with that other dreck. The gulf is so great and the decline so real. POE 1/2 are the equivalent of suppurating anal hemorrhoids as an experience. I've gotten stuff from the bargain bin in the old days for $1 that was so much better.

It's quite a thing that only a year or two(?) ago Chris Avellone was decrying Josh Sawyer as a rape apologist right here on the Codex because he stuck to his guns on making raiders actually evil in New Vegas.

Fast forward - Avellone is in hiding after being chased down with pitchforks and torches by the twitter mob over some cringey erotic roleplay texts and Josh Sawyer is crying out about progressive values and blah blah blah.

Must be something in the California Water.
 
Last edited:

the mole

Learned
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
833
back in my day

they made the exact same style of game with the exact same tropes, but as an asshurt old man I've found reasons to hate this one, even though it's pretty creative and throws a few curveballs

ie. boomer asshurtus
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,760
P.S. Big MT in FNV DLC is 100 times better than both POE games put together. If FNV had been nothing but one of the DLCs, would still be one of the most awesome open world RPGs ever made.
How old are you, kiddo? Big MT is utter BS about cringy horny talking TV screens, while PoE is a masterpiece full of serious mature themes.
For someone who has been a member of the Codex nearly four years, you appear astoundingly ignorant of the one and only Cleveland Blakemore.



:ibelieveincleve:

ZSTXAZF.jpg


eDwVnsJ.png
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
How about some constructive input man instead of just repeating that others are wrong, that POE is hot sauce and mindlessly labeling divergent opinions retarded?

I'm simply very tired of the repeated ad nausea blatant, nonsense lies and misinformation concerning Deadfire. About its "overbalancing", about how stats don't matter, about how people are not allowed to have fun with it or how there no broken builds or items in the game.

Its okay for people to have legitimate complaints with the game: how the main quest sucks, how the players have no agency in the story, how small most side/exploration locations are, how bare bones and repeatable and/or how unnecessary/futile the ship combat is.
Heck, even the combat might be divisive. Indeed, there are many enemies that are too bullet-spongy and the number of active abilities and effects makes it quite difficult to read and follow - outside of playing in slow mode and constant pausing. Despite this, it feels satisfying and fun for me. But I enjoy seeing the character's power develop and grow, discovering and exploiting broken combos and the micro-management aspect - still understand that some people may think differently.

But calling it overbalanced and bland? That's simply spreading false rumors. Blatant lying.

Or maybe trying to grasp the golden ideal of IE games from one's memories - one that never really existed.
For me, PoE is a better game then Baldur's Gate. There, I wrote it. Outside mage gameplay, BG combat was limited and not particularly fun. With flat, one dimensional character building from outdated 2nd ed. ADnD and non-mages being glorified road-blocks to enemies, with nothing exciting to do, but swing their shiny swords.
 
Last edited:

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
DnD and non-mages being glorified road-blocks to enemies, with nothing exciting to do, but swing their shiny swords.
If only I could get back those road block non-mage characters in POE. The one thing I hate the most in both POEs is that every character is basically a mage, because each one has dozens of abilities/spells. Micromanaging 6 characters constantly is unbearable.
 
Last edited:

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,155
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
DnD and non-mages being glorified road-blocks to enemies, with nothing exciting to do, but swing their shiny swords.
If only I could get back those road block non-mage characters in POE. The one thing I hate the most in both POEs is that every character is basically a mage, because each one has dozens of abilities/spells. Micromanaging 6 characters constantly is unbearable.
I tried modding this, but the whole system crumbles. If you strip down their active abilities, you have to cut whole classes, because they do basically the same thing once you take their abilities away.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,136
If only I could get back those road block non-mage characters in POE. The one thing I hate the most in both POEs is that every character is basically a mage, because each one has dozens of abilities/spells. Micromanaging 6 characters constantly is unbearable.
Yeah, I think that's one of the less intuitive reasons that BG's gameplay flowed so much better: despite having up to a 6-man party, you only focused your attention on a couple for any given encounter. Some classes had dramatically fewer gameplay features than others, but this made controlling a RTwP party a much more balanced gameplay experience.

And on a related topic, I also think 2E's differring level tresholds yielded better progression pacing in aggregate, since every once in a while you'd level up a character or two and then get back to it. In most newer 3E+ games and PoE, you typically go much longer without looking at a char sheet, and then you get levelling fatigue when you gotta up the whole party in one go. A good example to the opposite is ToEE, where implementing the ruleset's death and crafting features breaks the XP lockstep and restores a more balanced progression pacing in the long run.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
The problem is you have a zillion abilities that all do the same thing since Soyer restricted himself to spells and abilities only affecting 2 or 3 dimensions of the game (no adventuring spells and abilities for instance). Likewise percentages instead of thresholds with new effects is boring.

As for party RTwP being hard to manage you phaggots should just play Diablo. Can’t imagine playing BG or Icewind without bothering to even play my characters. What’s the point?

It’s exactly like Wizardry - give everybody an order once per round and let shit play out from there.
 
Last edited:

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Hap, there are (way) too many spells/abilities for the effects that Soyer restricted himself to. Obv solution from my perspective is wider range of effects but that runs into Soyer’s people are too stupid to prebuff so no abilities outside combat idiocy, which is where things went wrong.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Soyer’s people are too stupid to prebuff so no abilities outside combat idiocy, which is where things went wrong.
Depends.

If it is like the usual way e.g. DnD or Pathfinder "Slap the same buffs before each encounter or perish" then the game is just better off without that crap. There's 0 thinking involved in the process, it's just stupid busywork.
But I'd definitely like a system where some buffs (e.g. fire resistance) cannot even be properly cast during combat (e.g. they are rituals, not spells) so you'd have to prepare (and to make up for that, they'd last longer).
 

MrMarbles

Cipher
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
438
But calling it overbalanced and bland? That's simply spreading false rumors. Blatant lying.

You seem to be a little confused about the difference between observation and opinion. Let me help you out. "Sawyer is the Messiah reborn": That is a statement of fact. Since he is not, in fact, the messiah (just a very naughty boy), and I know he is not, I would be lying. "Sawyer failed to make the combat fun": This is a statement of opinion. It may be wrong, but since I do not believe it is wrong (in fact I believe the opposite), it cannot be a lie.

I enjoy seeing the character's power develop and grow, discovering and exploiting broken combos and the micro-management aspect

This is a blatant lie! False rumours!

See how this works?
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,131
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Soyer’s people are too stupid to prebuff so no abilities outside combat idiocy, which is where things went wrong.
Depends.

If it is like the usual way e.g. DnD or Pathfinder "Slap the same buffs before each encounter or perish" then the game is just better off without that crap. There's 0 thinking involved in the process, it's just stupid busywork.
But I'd definitely like a system where some buffs (e.g. fire resistance) cannot even be properly cast during combat (e.g. they are rituals, not spells) so you'd have to prepare (and to make up for that, they'd last longer).

What are you even talking about? Just because you put zero thinking in and are perishing as a result - let me guess, you fell for Armor and Shields are bad - don’t blame that on the game. The capacity to nuke is also essential to not perish without buffs, but just playing a decent fighter will get you halfway there.

Most of the buffs you want are long lasting so even a buff-centered class/build is only a problem when you have a bunch of one encounter areas, which P:K unfortunately did but I don’t recall BG having.

Even if you think buffing is boring - it’s never mindless since there are all kinds of trade offs like bringing a bard for Good Hope instead of spamming Heroism or using a Shield so you don’t need an Alchemist - that’s better solved with a decent macro than eliminating it altogether.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,523
Oh god, not the buffing discussion again. Games where you actually have to cast a dozen pre-buffs every encounter/couple of minutes don't exist. They cannot hurt you.
 
Last edited:

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Just because you put zero thinking in and are perishing as a result - let me guess, you fell for Armor and Shields are bad - don’t blame that on the game.
Armor and shield are bad? I don't even know what you are trying to refer to.

My point was that the typical "theres an encounter ahead -> throw on all the buffs you got -> enter encounter & win much easier" makes buffing before encounters pretty much mandatory.
Maybe you won't perish without (sorry if my hyperbole hurt your fanboy feelings), but if you are not doing it you are just gimping yourself.
I'm specifically talking about the inane +1/+2 to "everything" buffs and "always got to put this on" buffs here, not the ones meant to counter certain abilities.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom