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Grand Strategy Victoria 3

Axioms

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"Is it mana or isn't it mana" is a pointless debate. Just about every single thing in every Paradox game could be described as mana if we were inclusive enough (e.g. Stability, AE/badboy, Loyalty), as long as it's some unified quantitative count that you use one way or another to get shit done... well of course, because every Pdox game is modifiers bouncing off one another in a gamey, abstract fashioon. That's literally what Pdox games are.

The real question is whether it gives you realistic/interesting control levers to actually customise your nation, or you're mainly sitting there not able to do anything until an arbitrary money pot fills up. E.g. how bureaucratic / authority capacities interact with each other via laws and other decisions, whether you can move towards / end up with nations where overgrown bureaucracies then have other consequences.

(Influence seems to be just a reskin of diplomatic capacity in games like Imperator, just a cap on how many diplo contracts you can have that scales with your blobsize. Eh.)

One way I might improve Vicky3 specifically is to have workers actually used for stuff, instead of a resource, mana or otherwise. Like a spy network requires various amounts of relevant pops. Maybe a few characters. Similar for administration. They did that in a very simplistic way with needing 1% bureaucrats or w/e but I think you could add stuff to that and it would better than pop % plus a building.
 

thesecret1

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Wow, it's shit. Once more massive abstraction to the point of the resulting value not representing anything remotely concrete. "Bureaucracy" in the screenshot is a perfect example – one single number encompassing the whole country, so an "administrative center" (what the fuck is that even supposed to be?) on one side of the country will make tax collection better on the other side of it – shit that should be handled on a per-province basis is now collected into some arbitrary number that is supposed to represent state maintenance (again, what the actual fuck even is that?), pops maintenance (again, what the hell is this supposed to represent? And why does building an "administrative center" in Siberia help with maintaining pops in Moscow?), law enforcement, and education (why does having too many cops and teachers result in more tax evasion, though? How does this make any kind of sense?).

I'm not even going to delve into the monarch's "Authority" being significantly lowered by road maintenance in some of his provinces.

Once again, Paracocks are shoving in retarded point systems due to their inability to provide a complex, reasonably balanced system (gotta use several completely disconnected, simple systems instead, so that even Fatima from Somalia can balance them) – bureaucracy, law enforcement, education, road maintenance, and whatever the fuck else have you should all be paid for by money and be modelled through pops. Money shows the true capacity of the country and solves all the fucking problems that these hack systems are trying to alleviate – got a lot of pops? Well then you'll need to hire more policemen and teachers! Have a big country? You'll pay out the ass for the necessary infrastructure! The bigger you get, the bigger are your expenses, and it's up to you to manage your economy well enough to actually make a profit. Instead we get this fucking stinker with more goddamn mana – I guess the king's authority is lower because he spends more than half his time invoking ancient rituals of road maintenance for Svealand and Götaland, with the nation's oligarchs acting as support casters. What a fucking shitshow.
:killit:
 

Axioms

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Authority just sounds like political capital to me. Not the worst abstraction ever. Of course in Axioms I don't do it that way. It is much more complex and "political capital" is granular across pops and technically handled by a few interconnected systems but my expectation for Paradox games is it'd be lucky if they got halfway between Imperator and Axioms so this is right in line with expectations.

I think MEIOU&T: Pop Overhaul had admin centers but there was a penalty based on distance to a given province modified by roads and other transport, like sea access. So that would be better. Someone should go shill for that on Paradox Plaza.
 

Axioms

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People should go to the paradoxplaza subreddit and support my post about how MEIOU did communicative efficiency vs Vicky 3's capacity. Since it addresses the major complaints posted in this thread like the illogical global nature of the resource.
 

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Just about every single thing in every Paradox game could be described as mana if we were inclusive enough (e.g. Stability, AE/badboy, Loyalty)
Not really true. There was no mana in EU2/EU3/HoI up to 3. The variables you are citing are nowhere nearly as broad as what came with EU4.

Look at thesecret1's post for exapmles of what I mean. I would have thought after EUIV no examples are needed, but I guess not everyone has played it that much.

Anyway, if the mana system felt stupid in EUIV, it's going to feel like a joke when you are managing empires spanning multiple continents from the game start. Road infrastructure...

EDIT: the PDX forums crowd is mass-liking the post before reading it, as usual, but there are comments pointing out the swindle.
 
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thesecret1

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I think MEIOU&T: Pop Overhaul had admin centers but there was a penalty based on distance to a given province modified by roads and other transport, like sea access.
M&T has it so that the more time it takes to get somewhere from the capital, the more autonomous the given province will be, so for example your nation's heartland is going to be firmly administered with no autonomy, paying you all the taxes, while your remote provinces are likely to give most, if not all of their tax to local landholders (who however do not just burn the money, but actually use it to develop said province, so it's not a total loss). You can shorten the time it takes to get from capital to somewhere by improving roads and building better ports (maritime travel is much faster than going by land). If you are a truly large and rich nation, you can decide to build another "palace" of sorts for an exorbitant sum (which goes higher and higer with each palace you build) which then acts as a second hub for provinces to track their distance from (though it still is affected by distance to the actual capital).

M&T is going opposite way to Paradox, trying to basically eliminate mana from as many systems as it can, instead using money and time (no magic culture conversion buttons, for example – people adapt to your culture slowly and gradually, only in areas bordering your culture, the speed depending on the level of urbanization, on tribals in the area, etc.). I'd be thrilled if PDX decided to make a game in that vein, but they do not seem to intend to go that way.
 

Hace El Oso

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M&T is going opposite way to Paradox, trying to basically eliminate mana from as many systems as it can, instead using money and time... I'd be thrilled if PDX decided to make a game in that vein, but they do not seem to intend to go that way.

And yet, the people contributing to M&T who gradually took more and more control from Gigau were happy to create a system where all important ‘innovations’ would be developed in China, India... Zanzibar, Timbuktu, etc. Which paradox then eagerly emulated.
 

Theodora

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The real question is whether it gives you realistic/interesting control levers to actually customise your nation, or you're mainly sitting there not able to do anything until an arbitrary money pot fills up. E.g. how bureaucratic / authority capacities interact with each other via laws and other decisions, whether you can move towards / end up with nations where overgrown bureaucracies then have other consequences.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it's that simple. The desire to be away from mana is more than just to have "interesting levers", but for the game to feel like a meaningfully dynamic set of systems, rather than simply a board game. Imperator 1.0 to 2.0 is the clearest example of such a shortcoming and a solution to it among Paradox's games, imo.

That said, I'm not sure I understand bemoaning capacities if you liked CK2 / demesne limits, but it'll likely see a shift given player reactions. Hopefully authority at least will get more iteration before release.
 
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Silva

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The real question is whether it gives you realistic/interesting control levers to actually customise your nation, or you're mainly sitting there not able to do anything until an arbitrary money pot fills up. E.g. how bureaucratic / authority capacities interact with each other via laws and other decisions, whether you can move towards / end up with nations where overgrown bureaucracies then have other consequences.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it's that simple. The desire to be away from mana is more than just to have "interesting levers", but for the game to feel like a meaningfully dynamic set of systems, rather than simply a board game. Imperator 1.0 to 2.0 is the clearest example of such a shortcoming and a solution to it among Paradox's games, imo.
I agree. I:R2.0 and Vic2 appeal IMO is in their "mechanical ecosystem" where each system (Pop, Trade, Economy, Research, etc) affects each other and you must manage them to succeed.. instead of abstracting it all to a mana or lever that you click and wait X years for the effect.

That said, this is a game and all that meddling should be fun to engage, so there's a balance to find, and I wouldn't mind one "mana" like stat if it means abstracting an otherwise arcane and boring aspect of the simulation. The game being 80% systems and 20% mana is acceptable, the contrary is not (see EU4).
 
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The real question is whether it gives you realistic/interesting control levers to actually customise your nation, or you're mainly sitting there not able to do anything until an arbitrary money pot fills up. E.g. how bureaucratic / authority capacities interact with each other via laws and other decisions, whether you can move towards / end up with nations where overgrown bureaucracies then have other consequences.

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it's that simple. The desire to be away from mana is more than just to have "interesting levers", but for the game to feel like a meaningfully dynamic set of systems, rather than simply a board game. Imperator 1.0 to 2.0 is the clearest example of such a shortcoming and a solution to it among Paradox's games, imo.
I agree. I:R2.0 and Vic2 appeal IMO is in their "mechanical ecosystem" where each system (Pop, Trade, Economy, Research, etc) affects each other and you must manage them to succeed.. instead of abstracting it all to a mana or lever that you click and wait X years for the effect.

That said, this is a game and all that meddling should be fun to engage, so there's a balance to find, and I wouldn't mind one "mana" like stat if it means abstracting an otherwise arcane and boring aspect of the simulation. The game being 80% systems and 20% mana is acceptable, the contrary is not (see EU4).

I think the key is having good feedback in the UI so the player can tell what's going on easily. Reducing something down to simple values that let the player easily see how a given thing is doing, while the actual thing is itself complex. Good examples in V2 are most things that make their way to the topbar. You can glance at the economy button and see how your budget is doing. There's more details in the screen, but you get a nice little summary that tells you if you're in the green or in the red. Bad examples are things that aren't immediately evident and you have to dig in deeper to find them, like factory construction stalling because there's no iron because you're subsidizing the hell out of your steel mills and screwing up the world's supply.
 

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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #3 - Buildings
ThumbnailTemplate_1920x1080.png
Pops work to produce resources such as Goods. Buildings represent a wide range of industries, businesses and government functions, from humble subsistence farms to complex motor industries and sprawling financial districts. In this dev diary, we’re going to broadly cover the main types of buildings and their function in Victoria 3.

To talk about buildings though, I first have to mention states! States are a concept that should be generally familiar to anyone who’s played some of our other games such as Victoria II or Hearts of Iron IV - a geographic unit of varying size in which much of Victoria 3’s gameplay takes place. States are where Pops live and (more importantly for our subject matter) where Buildings are located and built.

The State of Götaland in Sweden
dd3_1.png


We will return to states more in later dev diaries, but for now let’s keep talking about Buildings!

Before we start on Buildings, something that’s important to note is that Buildings are just places where Pops can work and generally do not represent a single building - a single level of Government Administration, for example, represents the necessary buildings and infrastructure to support a certain number of Bureaucrats. Buildings always need qualified pops to work in them to yield any benefit, and an empty building is just that - empty and completely useless. This holds true even for buildings like Railroads and Ports that did not need Pops to work in them in Victoria 2.

Most buildings are directly constructed, but some (like the Subsistence Buildings below) will appear automatically based on certain conditions. When Buildings are constructed, the construction uses Pop labor and goods, and the costs involved will be subject to market forces.

But onto the different building types! First out, we have Subsistence Buildings. These are a special type of highly inefficient Buildings that cannot manually be built or destroyed, but rather will appear anywhere in the world where there is Arable Land that isn’t being used for another type of building. The vast majority of the world’s population starts the game ‘working’ in subsistence buildings as Peasants, and much of the game’s industrialization process is about finding more productive employment for your Peasants.


Peasants eke out a meager living in these Subsistence Farms, contributing little to GDP and taxes per capita
dd3_2.png


Another special type of building is Urban Centers. Like Subsistence Buildings, these are automatically created rather than built, with the level of Urban Center in a State being tied to the amount of Urbanization generated by its other buildings. Urban Centers primarily employ Shopkeepers and provide a number of important local functions that we will get into at a later point.


The Urban Center is where you’ll find most of your middle-class Shopkeepers
dd3_3.png


Next up we have Government Buildings. These are buildings that are fully funded by the state (ie, you!) and provide crucial civil services required for the smooth running of a Victorian nation. Examples include Government Administrations where Bureaucrats produce Bureaucracy for the administration of incorporated states and funding of Institutions, and Universities where Academics produce Innovation for technological progression.


Bureaucrats work in Government Administrations to provide Bureaucracy - the lifeblood of the government
dd3_4.png


The counterpart to Government Buildings is Private Industries. The vast majority of Buildings in Victoria 3 fall under this category, which includes a broad range of industries such as (non-subsistence!) farms, plantations, mines and factories. Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!).

Many of these buildings are limited by locally available resources such as Arable Land for agriculture and simply how much iron is available in the state for Iron Mines. Urban Buildings such as Factories however, are only limited by how many people you can cram into the state, simulating the more densely populated nature of cities. In short, there is no system of building ‘slots’ or anything like that, as we want limitations on buildings to function in a sensible and realistic way.


Several different types of Private Industries are shown below
dd3_5.png


Finally there are Development Buildings. These are often (but not always!) government buildings that distinguish themselves by providing vital state-level functions. A couple examples are Barracks that recruit and train soldiers from the local population and Railways that provide the Infrastructure other buildings need to bring their goods to the Market.


From left to right: Barracks, Port, Naval Bases and Railway
dd3_6.png


To finish up this dev diary I just want to mention that building up your country is meant to be more of a hands-on experience in Victoria 3, as this is absolutely core to the society-building aspect of the game and forms a major part of the game’s core loop. This naturally also means that we need to give the player the necessary tools to manage their buildings in a large empire, which may involve some form of autonomous building construction, though we haven’t yet nailed down exactly what form that would take (and whether it will involve decision making on the part of the investor class). Ultimately though, we want the player, not the AI to be the one primarily in charge of the development of their own country.

Well, there you have it. There is of course a lot in here (such as Production Methods) that will receive further explanation in the many more dev diaries we have planned, so be sure to tune in next week as I talk about Goods. See you then!
 

IDtenT

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"Is it mana or isn't it mana" is a pointless debate. Just about every single thing in every Paradox game could be described as mana if we were inclusive enough (e.g. Stability, AE/badboy, Loyalty), as long as it's some unified quantitative count that you use one way or another to get shit done... well of course, because every Pdox game is modifiers bouncing off one another in a gamey, abstract fashioon. That's literally what Pdox games are.

The real question is whether it gives you realistic/interesting control levers to actually customise your nation, or you're mainly sitting there not able to do anything until an arbitrary money pot fills up. E.g. how bureaucratic / authority capacities interact with each other via laws and other decisions, whether you can move towards / end up with nations where overgrown bureaucracies then have other consequences.

(Influence seems to be just a reskin of diplomatic capacity in games like Imperator, just a cap on how many diplo contracts you can have that scales with your blobsize. Eh.)
The problem isn't so much "mana", but that the whole dynamic of the game runs off of this limited resource. In Stellaris for instance while adequate resource management is required to address attacks and a stable empire, the external grand strategy part of the game is completely walled off by an arbitrary influence counter.
 

Demo.Graph

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Many of these buildings are limited by locally available resources such as Arable Land for agriculture and simply how much iron is available in the state for Iron Mines. Urban Buildings such as Factories however, are only limited by how many people you can cram into the state, simulating the more densely populated nature of cities. In short, there is no system of building ‘slots’ or anything like that, as we want limitations on buildings to function in a sensible and realistic way.
And then they describe slots for 'racks and trains literally in the next paragraph. :lol:
Also, I bet that asphalt roads would still be the top level of "transport infrastructure" that replaces rail.

But yeah, I like the changes as well.
Also, pop buildings implicitly add capital assets, and should they be moddable, someone might be able to mod in a believeable economy.
 

Raghar

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on one side of the country will make tax collection better on the other side of it – shit that should be handled on a per-province basis is now collected into some arbitrary number that is supposed to represent state maintenance (again, what the actual fuck even is that?),
Police, army, schools (in some countries state is paying for this, I had home education).
pops maintenance (again, what the hell is this supposed to represent? And why does building an "administrative center" in Siberia help with maintaining pops in Moscow?)
Disability pensions (in states that don't rob disabled of theirs pension like Zaorálek). Teacher salaries. Salaries of government officials. Considering it's pre WWI era, after WWI number of disabled was so high state was forced to pay theirs pension from state budget. (Before it was assumed relatives would pay. Which can be represented by LOWER free money in population... Which can cause massive state budget problems later. But this is assuming Paradox actually knows what they are doing.)

Administration center in Novosibirsk means people from Moscow no longer need to pay taxes for people in Novosibirsk thus it helps pops in Moscow.
(why does having too many cops and teachers result in more tax evasion, though? How does this make any kind of sense?).
My mother was high ranked school officials (that's why I'm disabled), for me it makes a lot of sense.

And as for why too large percentage of cops per population causes corruption... Well, they either go to their offices and mostly do nothing. Or they abuse population.

But, I assume Paradox isn't creating as detailed simulation. They probably said: Teachers + policemen are paid from taxes, they don't produce anything, when you have too many of them, it's net tax malus.

I'm not even going to delve into the monarch's "Authority" being significantly lowered by road maintenance in some of his provinces.
You never lived in socialism right? Thus you never seen how government official authority was lowered by a state of the road. (Well some people were bitchy, it's not like these cars were not able to drive on road that had 3 holes per 10 meters. It's not like the asphalt disappeared completely. It's just the main road nearby, used by trucks and busses, had a priority.)

Once again, Paracocks are shoving in retarded point systems due to their inability to provide a complex, reasonably balanced system
Yea exactly, even stuff they do right they do right by an accident and they don't show details why is that happening, thus they would break working system in next patch.
 

Nutria

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Strap Yourselves In
Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!).

I'm curious to see how they'll handle family farms in the USA, Canada, etc. They made up a huge part of the world's economic growth during this era and the demand from those tens of millions of relatively wealthy consumers importing goods drove industrialization overseas. But when they say "certain economic systems" I'm guessing they mean that you can choose between different European ideas like Marxism or Syndicalism. Paradox loves to imagine that the whole world is either just like Europe or primitive savages, and that kind of works to a degree in the Europa Universalis era. But in the Victoria era, the big event happening in the world is the rise of the USA and it's just silly to ignore that when designing the simulation.
 

Joggerino

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Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!).

I'm curious to see how they'll handle family farms in the USA, Canada, etc. They made up a huge part of the world's economic growth during this era and the demand from those tens of millions of relatively wealthy consumers importing goods drove industrialization overseas. But when they say "certain economic systems" I'm guessing they mean that you can choose between different European ideas like Marxism or Syndicalism. Paradox loves to imagine that the whole world is either just like Europe or primitive savages, and that kind of works to a degree in the Europa Universalis era. But in the Victoria era, the big event happening in the world is the rise of the USA and it's just silly to ignore that when designing the simulation.
Those would probably be the more advanced type of farms mentioned in the DD.
 

Space Satan

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I wonder how they are going to represent plantations, given how they were initially very profitable but started to lose to industry
 

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Goods
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-4-goods.1479730/
Happy Thursday and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary, this time on the subject of Goods! Goods are a core economic feature of Victoria 3, just as they were in previous Victoria games, and come in a wide variety of types. Also, as in previous Victoria games, the manufacturing of Goods (by Pops in Buildings) is how the vast majority of the wealth in Victoria 3 is created.

Fundamentally, a unit of Goods represent a quantity of a certain type of natural resource, manufactured good or intangible service and come attached with a price tag. This price varies both in base (a single unit of Tanks is pricier than a single unit of Fabric) and in actual market value, as the prices of Goods change depending on supply and demand.

A selection of goods that are bought and sold in the British Market.

dd4_1_2.png


There are four broad categories of Goods: Staple Goods, Luxury Goods, Industrial Goods and Military Goods. Of these, Staple/Luxury Goods are mainly consumed by Pops, and Industrial/Military Goods are mainly consumed by buildings, but there are no hard rules here - you will find Buildings using Luxury Goods and Pops purchasing Industrial Goods when and where it makes sense for them to do so.

Staple Goods are everyday goods that Pops need to live, such as food to eat, wood to heat their homes, and clothes to wear. Staple Goods tend to be purchased in vast quantities by poor and middle class pops, with richer pops generally eschewing them for luxury variants.

Grain - possibly the most Staple of all Staple Goods!
dd4_2_2.png


Luxury Goods are the things that Pops do not necessarily need but definitely want, such as fine foods, luxury drinks like Tea and Coffee, or fine clothes made from chinese silk. Luxuries tend to be more profitable to produce than Staple Goods, but depend on having a customer base with money - a poor factory worker isn’t going to be buying a whole lot of mahogany cabinets.

You can never have too many painted Ming vases, I always say.
dd4_3_2.png


Industrial Goods are goods such as Iron, Coal, Rubber and Lead whose main purpose is often to be converted into other, more profitable goods. Securing a steady supply of vital Industrial Goods is crucial to Industrialization and growing the GDP of your country.

Tools are essential to the operation of many industries.
dd4_4_2.png


Military Goods are goods such as Small Arms, Ammunition and Warships that are used by military buildings to arm and supply the armies and navies of the 19th century nations. The more technologically advanced the army or navy, the more complex (and expensive!) Military Goods they will need.

I’m told that soldiers tend to perform better if they’re given ammunition for their guns.
dd4_5_2.png



We’ll be returning to the topic of Goods in later dev diaries when discussing related mechanics such as Markets, Pop Needs, Goods Substitution and Cultural Obsessions... but for now, I bid you adieu for a while, as next week Mikael will provide you with a dev diary about something we’ve been teasing for some time now - Production Methods!
 

Space Satan

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I bet Production methods is what everyone craved in victoria 2 - ability to produce one good from different resources. Like paper from wood or papyrus.
 

nobre

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^ Mods did that thing right. Already in Vicky 1 you had Dye, and synthetic dye made from coal and chemicals iirc. Sugar from RGO sugarcane and from RGO 'fruit'. The latter needed a factory to process the beets into sugar. And so on.
 

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