How much tutorial should a developer put in an RPG?

[Moaning_Clock]

After a couple of playtests I got a lot of feedback (mostly from people who don't play RPGs or at least don't play turn-based Dungeon Crawlers) and something that popped up quite frequently (even more so if the testers were younger) is that there is not enough tutorialisation. And I wondered if this is due to the fact that they normally play simpler games or is an overall problem I need to address.

Personally, I really hate tutorials except when they feel very necessary due to the complexity of the whole game or a part of the system. I mostly just read the controls in the options.

Since my game is relatively simple I just say: press m to read the manual in the beginning but some players don't do this, skim it once and get stuck or do something they didn't intend.

I personally fear that a tutorial that holds the hand too much leaves people wanting even more tips/tutorialisation. What's the most effective thing in combat (figure it out is my approach now), maybe even quest markers and more.


So, what's your opinion on tutorials? Explain everything even moving with wasd, explain only some parts, make explanations optional or just read the fucking manual?

For reference

Spoiler

 

[rusty_shackleford]

none, just replicate ToEE's ingame manual

I don't need a game to explain something to me if I can just hover over it and go to an explanation as needed

 

[Butter]

I don't think there's a dungeon crawler complex enough to warrant a full tutorial. You learn by horsing around in the first level and getting killed by kobolds. Unintuitive UI is a bigger problem than actual difficulty in such games, so providing a quick reference to the controls is important.

Bigger picture, Underrail's tutorial is really good. It's optional, and it doesn't waste hours teaching you all the combat mechanics. It shows you what you need to survive the first two hours of play, and then you figure the rest out as you go. It's important to not overwhelm players before they've become invested in the game.

 

[new fucking guy]

none
bring back extensive manuals
suffer not the casual

 

[fork]

No tutorial at all, just RTFM for me.
However, I don't think that's the right approach if you intend to sell more copies of your game.

Your choice really, like with so many design decisions: Do you want a better game, or sell more copies?

 

[Ninjerk]

Make sure your playtesters are actually something like your target audience and ignore it. If you really can't get the idea out of your brain, make the 1st level tutorial-esque with a fast way out for smart players.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

I doubt Fortnite players can give good and constructive feedback on what's good or bad about your DRPG. At best you won't hear what you need to hear, at worst you'll get distracted by noise.

If you really need a tutorial, throw in a small level where the player has to overcome a couple of obstacles that block the path unless the player learns how to deal with them, and throw in optional messages (e.g. notes) in case he can't figure things out on his own.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

IMO the UI should be tutorialized, but that's the only thing I think is strictly necessary. In the year 2021 though, there should be a full manual available in-game, and it should have search functionality and allow linking among entries.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

If you have to have a tutorial, make it optional. Nothing is more annoying than an unskippable tutorial you've already beaten. Personally, I like the solution you mention, a reference card, either in or out of game, that tells you what each button does, plus a manual that explains any unusual concepts.
Having had this exact thing happen to me, I can't really tell you anything beyond that, except to read between the lines on what people are complaining about. I.E., why are they complaining about this.

 

[Sigourn]

No amount of RTFM replaces a good tutorial.
Personally I would have an optional tutorial dungeon that introduces you to the game's basic concepts and controls at a reasonable pace. Reading the manual is nice but a lot of times you just don't know when that particular piece of advice in page 73 will come in handy (if it ever will, that is).

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Make sure your playtesters are actually something like your target audience and ignore it.

At best you won't hear what you need to hear, at worst you'll get distracted by noise.

I usually try to test with people of a lot of different backgrounds and I personally know, it just happens that I don't know enough people who play DRPGs. But I'll get feedback from the wider audience when the demo hits.
But I can usually tell which complaints are important or which are just: the game isn't for you.

Reading the manual is nice but a lot of times you just don't know when that particular piece of advice in page 73 will come in handy

In my case it's one page - I avoid explaining anything aside of buttons to press since I think it's part of the joy to figure that stuff out for oneself.


Thanks for all the answers that ensured me that overly tutorialisation is shit. A mandatory tutorial is completely out of question and I will at most give some optional hints and improve the level design in the beginning so that the player learns every important key fast.


If one or two guys want to play the short demo before it hits the Steam Next Fest this would be greatly appreciated, especially if you played some DRPGs! You can write me an email (protagonist@smokesomefrogs.com) or dm me. Thanks!

 

[deuxhero]

All tutorial should be in an optional campaign (except allowing a reference card for controls if one opens it from the menu). Even if you can disable the prompts, areas focused on one mechanic thrown at you one after the other at the start of the game is unatural and unfriendly to various character builds/concepts.

 

[Flying Dutchman]

none, just replicate ToEE's ingame manual

I don't need a game to explain something to me if I can just hover over it and go to an explanation as needed

This. Mandatroy tutorials are the worst, often just a pop-up when needed at key points.

I hate to bring up FPS's, but they usually do this pretty well on the opening level without disrupting the action and sometimes when the level you're playing has a rare navigation obstacle that hasn't been done in a while. Although arguably that's the sign of uneven level design, I guess.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

BTW, I didn't like this game itself(dropped it after a couple hours) but it had one of the best "tutorial" levels in any modern game I've played -- Jedi: Fallen Order.
Never felt like the game was telling me what to do, but guiding me towards doing things to learn how to do it. Would recommend any new/hopeful game designer give the first level a playthrough.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Don't listen to any advice you don't agree with. Make the kind of game you would like to play. That's probably why you started developing games so stick with that. I don't mind skippable tutorials myself. A separate training mode like Deus Ex had is cool. But then I'm not making this game. You are. Leave worrying about mass market appeal to the big studios and just make the game you envisioned at the outset.

 

[markec]

Weak men use tutorials and manuals, real men learn through experience.

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

Shit tier: Any tutorial that starts with "use WASD/analog sticks to move"

Okay tier: Only having a manual as already mentioned

God tier: No tutorial or manual, the game just poorly explains how it works so you have to look on wikis but end up having fun reading lore and obscure mechanics, plus watching meme videos. Miyazaki accidentally became the god of tutorial design.

 

[octavius]

Tutorials are fine, as long as they are optional and not part of the actual game.

 

[Thac0]

I don't think there's a dungeon crawler complex enough to warrant a full tutorial.

Wizardry 6-7, if only for masturbatory character building and exotic spell name choices.

Since my game is relatively simple I just say: press m to read the manual in the beginning but some players don't do this, skim it once and get stuck or do something they didn't intend.

You WILL fuck up your sales if you do this. Rpgcodex is a tiny fragment off the overall player base, even for theoretically inherently hardcore games like dungeon crawlers. If your testing crowd, which is fairly likely to be much more representative off the overall market that buys the game later, wants a tutorial, giving them a tutorial will be a direct boon to your sales.

Tutorials are fine, as long as they are optional and not part of the actual game.

With this I agree fully. Solasta as an example has a disgustingly long and mandatory tutorial, which spans maybe half an hour. I did it once in Early Access, dropped the game partially because of the bad tutorial, then did it once on full release, saw that I fucked up my party composition, and had to redo it. Appeasement to the casuals is all fine and dandy, and the game sells like hotcakes because of it, but a skip tutorial button is such a simple change to make your game more attractive for explorers and replays.

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

You WILL fuck up your sales if you do this.

Should I actually make a good X or make money, a tale as old as time. I would argue that normies simply won't play certain games anyway so if you make such games there's no point to a tutorial in the first place. Autistic shit like DF is better served by a wiki/manual. So the real question isn't whether you should have a tutorial, it's if your game is casual enough to allow one anyway.

 

[Thac0]

You WILL fuck up your sales if you do this.

Should I actually make a good X or make money, a tale as old as time. I would argue that normies simply won't play certain games anyway so if you make such games there's no point to a tutorial in the first place. Autistic shit like DF is better served by a wiki/manual. So the real question isn't whether you should have a tutorial, it's if your game is casual enough to allow one anyway.

This is not Age of Decadence. It does not signal that normies should get out reeee by the getgo. If this launches with lacking directions for the players there will be refunds, angry people in the steam forums and bad reviews.

But that made me think of something.
https://itch.io/jam/dcjam2021
This is an itch.io dungeon crawler jam. Many crawlers there, given that they have to capture the attention span quickly, have something like a proto tutorial dungeon. So a normal dungeon, where the obstacles are placed in a way that makes you encounter the mechanics one buy one, with signs on the walls explaining the mechanics. Slam one off those in, make it optional and call it a day.

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

I don't care if I made that game the tutorial would be you have to pay me $1,000/hour to come teach you how to play it in person.

 

[Denim Destroyer]

Never assume your players will have the knowledge or experiences you have. Seeing a review mention a meaningful lack of knowledge conveyed through a game will impact future sales more than the one which complains about too much tutorials.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Don't listen to any advice you don't agree with. Make the kind of game you would like to play. That's probably why you started developing games so stick with that.

I agree to a certain extend but I personally don't mind optional stuff that's nice for players. I rarely play with controller but put it in anyways even though this is not directly comparable.

I would argue that normies simply won't play certain games

In most cases I would agree to a certain extend (if the game had its first 80% sale years after release or was part of some cheap bundle this likely changes) it's just the case that I know that a certain amount of people will get this game that aren't familiar with the Dungeon Crawler genre that follow other projects of mine.

If this launches with lacking directions for the players there will be refunds, angry people in the steam forums and bad reviews.

Yeah, that's the problem. I really thought that players wouldn't mind to read one short page of manual but some people certainly are. At least nobody here wants a mandatory tutorial

 

[Maxie]