Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cryomancer]

People think it raises the skill ceiling because they can't win without pre-buffing and pre-buffing makes them win so pre-buffing

Nope. If I am going to fight Will'O wisps, I will cast resist electricity. If I an dealing with undeads, deathward and so on. Pre combat buffing has relation to preparation to face a specific enemy and rewards tracking and planning. The problem is that is rare to see enemies using pre combat buffs. It should be a toll which PC's and NPC's use.

5E took away a lot of buffs with concentration mechanic, hence needed to also take out a lot of nasty abilities from enemies. No more negative levels inflicted by enemies for eg.

Thanks God it was not up to you...

As expected by the same guy who hated George's idea for BG3.

Also kind of funny how some of the hardest late game fights also doesn't really have that much verticality or darkness to be honest

Yep. The final part fell a bit unfinished. Is just corridor fight after corridor fight.

 

[Lacrymas]

Pre-buffing done right allows to decide between various different strategies depending on what you want to do with your characters.

It can go from something simple like "I want this character to be more resilient so I will use the +2 to all ST buff instead of the +4 to STR one" to something more involved like "I want to rely on difficult terrain effects, so I'm going to use Mass Feather Step" or maybe "I want to squeeze everything I can from my Fireball, so I'm going to use Protection from Energy (Fire) on my warrior". Pre-buffing doesn't have to be a binary choice between having all the best buffs and not being buffed at all: if the buffs are interesting and your slots are limited, you can select them according to your playstyle.

You can do all of this with no pre-buffing, you'll just have to cast these spells in combat, so there's an actual opportunity cost and a tactical choice.

People think it raises the skill ceiling because they can't win without pre-buffing and pre-buffing makes them win so pre-buffing

Nope. If I an going to fight Will'O wisps, I will cast resist electricity. If I an dealing with undeads, deathward and so on. Pre combat buffing has relation to preparation to face a specific enemy and rewards tracking and planning. The problem is that is rare to see enemies using pre combat buffs. It should be a toll which PC's and NPC's use.

See above. You can cast resist electricity and deathward, just not before the battle so it can free up your actions.

 

[Reinhardt]

As expected by the same guy who hated George's idea for BG3.

It was shit. ToB was shit and should never be mentioned again and it's just ToB 2. DOUBLE SHIT!

 

[Anonona]

That said, what I can get on BG3 and not on other CRPG's besides pretty graphics?

A full fledged low level DnD 5E RPG with all classes and features, multi-classing, considerable interactivity and decent CnC, multiplayer and pretty graphics.

I liked Solasta a lot, is a fun game and considering it is the first one made by Tactical Adventure, it shows promise. But it lacks many classes and spells, and many of the sub classes are questionable (shock arcanist is cool if a bit OP, but the Fighters subclasses are worse than the base 5E ones and straight up boring, and wizard's green mage and lore master are kind of weak compared with shock arcanist) Add that the game is designed more like a series of fights with quest being little more than "go here, kill enemies and take back treasure", very little exploration, and finally, the very low amount of customization for characters, and you can see how it may feel that it falls a little short compared with other RPGs.

 

[Lacrymas]

Add that the game is designed more like a series of fights with quest being little more than "go here, kill enemies and take back treasure", very little exploration, and finally, the very low amount of customization for characters, and you can see how it may feel that it falls a little short compared with other RPGs.

I wouldn't mind this (see KotC) if the fights were actually good and not copy-pasted ghoul fights 4 times in a row you can auto-attack through. I am a combatfag at heart, so I don't need elaborate set-ups. They are nice, don't get me wrong, but mechanics and difficulty > story. Yeah, sometimes the story is so bad it makes you question your existence (D:OS1), but that's rare.

 

[Harthwain]

Nope. If I an going to fight Will'O wisps [...]

There! He did it again!

 

[NJClaw]

You can do all of this with no pre-buffing, you'll just have to cast these spells in combat, so there's an actual opportunity cost and a tactical choice.

With Vancian systems there's always an opportunity cost because your slots are finite. Each slot I'm spending on Heroism is a slot I won't be able to use on Haste or Displacement.

And if you're going down the route of "the lack of resting restrictions invalidates that opportunity cost", then the problem is with the entire magic system, not pre-buffing.

 

[Lacrymas]

With Vancian systems there's always an opportunity cost because your slots are finite. Each slot I'm spending on Heroism is a slot I won't be able to use on Haste or Displacement.

And if you're going down the route of "the lack of resting restrictions invalidates that opportunity cost", then the problem is with the entire magic system, not pre-buffing.

I already addressed this - buffs are still eating up spell slots, you just have to cast them in combat. Tactical choice and strategic choice (which spells to memorize) aren't using the same opportunity cost pool.

 

[Reinhardt]

Just make it "mana" but without mana regeneration and mana potions.

 

[Cryomancer]

With Vancian systems there's always an opportunity cost because your slots are finite. Each slot I'm spending on Heroism is a slot I won't be able to use on Haste or Displacement.

KoTC1 removed the ability of pre combat buffing. Instead of casting protection from electricity, I am enchanting a gear with protection from electricity, so I don't waste a turn...

A full fledged low level DnD 5E RPG with all classes and features, multi-classing, considerable interactivity and decent CnC, multiplayer and pretty graphics.

Nice point. I still believe that BG3 is inferior to all other CRPG's, but is not as if he don't have anything unique.

As for solasta having some crap encounters, at least you don't spend hours of then. hu3hu3 That said, Wrath is the best one not only due higher level gameplay. With lv cap = 12, I would still prefer the game (the reason which I mention lv cap = 12 and not 10 like Solasta is cuz is possible to complete ch 4 on lv 12. Very hard, but possible. Any level bellow it, would be just too hard). Amazing companions, each one with a interesting story, ostracized witch, succubus seeking redemption, gnome who joined the hell knights(...), interesting mythic paths, interesting encounter design and crusade mechanics.

It was shit. ToB was shit and should never be mentioned again and it's just ToB 2. DOUBLE SHIT!

If the unique high level D&D CRPG which I ever have played was ToB, I would hate high level gameplay too... But he has interesting and original ideas.

I already addressed this - buffs are still eating up spell slots, you just have to cast them in combat. Tactical choice and strategic choice (which spells to memorize) aren't using the same opportunity cost pool.

This on 5E, where wizards casts as spontaneous casters, you need to memorize each spell individually on previous editions. You can't memorize fireball + haste and decide which one is the best. If you have two third level spell slots, you can have two fireballs, two haste, one fireball and one haste...

 

[NJClaw]

With Vancian systems there's always an opportunity cost because your slots are finite. Each slot I'm spending on Heroism is a slot I won't be able to use on Haste or Displacement.

And if you're going down the route of "the lack of resting restrictions invalidates that opportunity cost", then the problem is with the entire magic system, not pre-buffing.

I already addressed this - buffs are still eating up spell slots, you just have to cast them in combat.

But the opportunity cost, albeit lower, is still there even without having to cast them during combat. And you are presented with the choice of locking up those slots for buffs you might not even need or keeping them free to use them during combat on another spell or even the buff itself. Even with pre-buffing, you can still cast those buffs in combat if you prefer to keep your options open.

You seem to assume that, with pre-buffing, there's no reason not to use all your slots on buff outside of combat, but that doesn't have to be case. You can choose between many different playstyles, and wasting all your slots on pre-buffing is one of them.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

opportunity cost in vancian systems is clicking the rest button lmao

 

[Lacrymas]

But the opportunity cost, albeit lower, is still there even without having to cast them during combat. And you are presented with the choice of locking up those slots for buffs you might not even need or keeping them free to use them during combat on another spell or even the buff itself. Even with pre-buffing, you can still cast those buffs in combat if you prefer to keep your options open.

You seem to assume that, with pre-buffing, there's no reason not to use all your slots on buff outside of combat, but that doesn't have to be case. You can choose between many different playstyles, and wasting all your slots on pre-buffing is one of them.

See my edit - tactical and strategic choices don't use the same opportunity cost pool. The choice and opportunity cost of how you use your spell slots are always there, regardless of whether there's pre-buffing or not.

 

[NJClaw]

But the opportunity cost, albeit lower, is still there even without having to cast them during combat. And you are presented with the choice of locking up those slots for buffs you might not even need or keeping them free to use them during combat on another spell or even the buff itself. Even with pre-buffing, you can still cast those buffs in combat if you prefer to keep your options open.

You seem to assume that, with pre-buffing, there's no reason not to use all your slots on buff outside of combat, but that doesn't have to be case. You can choose between many different playstyles, and wasting all your slots on pre-buffing is one of them.

See my edit - tactical and strategic choices don't use the same opportunity cost pool.

And?

That's also not true for any spontaneous caster.

 

[Lacrymas]

And?

That's also not true for any spontaneous caster.

So relying on that argument to support pre-buffing is a non-sequitur.

 

[Cryomancer]

opportunity cost in vancian systems is clicking the rest button lmao

This on BG3 where you can teleport to camp, rest and teleport back with no cost or risk.

On KoTC1/2, you can only rest on limited places which often can only be used once.

On Wrath of the righteous, you get heavy penalties by getting corrupted and having a skilled guy and passing the check only reduces the corruption.

 

[NJClaw]

And?

That's also not true for any spontaneous caster.

So relying on that argument to support pre-buffing is a non-sequitur.

But that's literally not true.

I am a Sorcerer. I have 3 level 3 slots. I use one of them to cast Heroism on my companion outside of combat because I know that's a good spell, now I have 2 slots. I open the door and in front of me there's my worst nightmare: the Horrible Monster That Dies Only When You Cast 3 Fireballs! Oh no, I'm screwed! If only I still had all my slots!

Getting rid of pre-buffing adds nothing to this situation. On the contrary, pre-buffing introduces a choice: locking that slot in advance to avoid wasting actions during combat.

 

[Lacrymas]

But that's literally not true.

I am a Sorcerer. I have 3 level 3 slots. I use one of them to cast Heroism on my companion outside of combat because I know that's a good spell, now I have 2 slots. I open the door and in front of me there's my worst nightmare: the Horrible Monster That Dies Only When You Cast 3 Fireballs! Oh no, I'm screwed! If only I still had all my slots!

Getting rid of pre-buffing adds nothing to this situation.

The strategic choice here is picking up heroism on your sorcerer instead of something else (because sorcerers work like that), not that you pre-buffed heroism. It's your fault you didn't scout out the fight beforehand. This is not a problem when there's no pre-buffing, and it's a scenario that doesn't exist in practice even if there's pre-buffing. You are going to reload anyway and not cast heroism so you can have all your slots. That doesn't work when there's no pre-buffing because the opportunity cost is always there, so you don't get "extra" spell slots by reloading and not pre-buffing. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, and how the sorcerer works is a prime example of this. "I'll pre-buff just in case and waste my spell slots, but I'll reload and not pre-buff to have all my slots anyway when pre-buffing doesn't work out". There's literally no downside to this and it will be the same end result regardless - you have all your saved spell slots when there's no pre-buffing in general.

 

[Saravan]

A higher ceiling of what? It's definitely not the skill ceiling. It lowers the skill ceiling by not only buffing your stats before the combat starts, but also by freeing your action economy to concentrate only on the mobs/dealing damage/debuffing/etc. People think it raises the skill ceiling because they can't win without pre-buffing and pre-buffing makes them win so pre-buffing is obviously a sign of skill.

Pre-buffing done right allows to decide between various different strategies depending on what you want to do with your characters.

It can go from something simple like "I want this character to be more resilient so I will use the +2 to all ST buff instead of the +4 to STR one" to something more involved like "I want to rely on difficult terrain effects, so I'm going to use Mass Feather Step" or maybe "I want to squeeze everything I can from my Fireball, so I'm going to use Protection from Energy (Fire) on my warrior". Pre-buffing doesn't have to be a binary choice between having all the best buffs and not being buffed at all: if the buffs are interesting and your slots are limited, you can select them according to your playstyle.

Yeah that is a big "if". I don't know about you, but it became clear pretty soon in Pathfinder KM what pre-buffs were "meta" and quickly every important fight became a slog fest of pre-buffing everytime. The buff bot helped out dealing with the chore but the whole concept sounds unnecessary and as Lacrymas pointed out, which I agree with, it removes a good portion of action economy.

I still think it's a fun game and the next Pathfinder will be too but I cringe at the people who think this is the definition of "skilled based" game.

 

[Reinhardt]

Casters crying is music for my ears.

 

[NJClaw]

The strategic choice here is picking up heroism on your sorcerer instead of something else (because sorcerers work like that), not that you pre-buffed heroism. It's your fault you didn't scout out the fight beforehand.

Now you're just ignoring the point and using misdirection tricks.

Without pre-buffing, you have your 3 slots and, if you want to cast your buff, you have to use a slot and an action to do so.
With pre-buffing, that's still true, but you can also choose to renounce to the versatility of an open slot to ignore the action cost. You lose nothing against the "no pre-buffing" case and you gain a choice.

Yeah that is a big "if". I don't know about you, but it became clear pretty soon in Pathfinder KM what pre-buffs were "meta" and quickly every important fight became a slog fest of pre-buffing everytime. The buff bot helped out dealing with the chore but the whole concept sounds unnecessary and as Lacrymas pointed out, which I agree with, it removes a good portion of action economy.

But that's just how you (and many other people) chose to play the game. I finished Kingmaker on Hard without ever using a buff outside combat apart from Mage Armor, Shield, Barkskin, Good Hope, Archon's Aura, and Communal Delay Poison.

 

[Lacrymas]

The strategic choice here is picking up heroism on your sorcerer instead of something else (because sorcerers work like that), not that you pre-buffed heroism. It's your fault you didn't scout out the fight beforehand.

Now you're just ignoring the point and using misdirection tricks.

Without pre-buffing, you have your 3 slots and, if you want to cast your buff, you have to use a slot and an action to do so.
With pre-buffing, that's still true, but you can also choose to renounce to the versatility of an open slot to ignore the action cost. You lose nothing against the "no pre-buffing" case and you gain a choice.

You lose nothing regardless because you can reload and still have your 3 spell slots. Pre-buffing is a middle-man in this made-up scenario that never happens in practice. This will only ever happen if you are either soloing a tabletop campaign in which the DM is ruthless and merciless, or the entire party is exhausted and the only thing that's left is 3 spell slots of the required spell circle on your sorcerer. It just never happens and it's pointless to take into consideration, especially when the end result is the same if you can reload. You lose so much tactical depth in general in order to accommodate this weird and very specific scenario in which you might lose a spell slot which you absolutely need. It requires such a huge set-up to pay off - tabletop scenario or no reloading, spontaneous caster, exhausted spells and party (or soloing), a very specific creature that requires exactly 3 fireballs to kill, impossibility of scouting beforehand - that it's pointless to take into consideration.

 

[NJClaw]

You lose nothing regardless because you can reload and still have your 3 spell slots. Pre-buffing is a middle-man in this made-up scenario that never happens in practice.

Well, okay, then nothing matters because, opportunity costs or not, you can just reload if you lose the encounter, so you can't fail and your choices and actions are pointless. Games should also have no branching dialogue with branches that can lead you not to reach your goal, because you can just reload.

If you get rid of everything that an obtuse player can circumvent by reloading, you may as well cancel every game in existence.

To me, part of the fun is to make choices and deal with the consequences. Reloading completely invalidates that so I don't really consider it an option.

EDIT: also stop editing your posts it's driving me crazy

 

[rusty_shackleford]

reminder that quickloading is cheating

 

[Cryomancer]

Pathfinder KM what pre-buffs were "meta" and quickly every important fight became a slog fest of pre-buffing everytime. The buff bot helped out dealing with the chore but the whole concept sounds unnecessary and as Lacrymas pointed out, which I agree with, it removes a good portion of action economy.

The problem is simple. Enemies are retarded on kingmaker. No one casts disjunction, greater dispel and dispel on you.

But lets suppose that a patch now removes the ability to pre buff on kingmaker. Imagine fighting the wild hunt without freedom of movement, nor pre summoning meatshields cuz spells can only be used on combat. Imagine very long lasting expensive spells lasting a encounter(...)

You lose nothing regardless because you can reload and still have your 3 spell slots.

Quick Save/ Quick Load is player choice. I can re load till I get a critical on my first hit, this doesn't mean that crit should be removed.