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Grimoire Thread

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
I got some design documents here from 1996 that went into great detail about the Jester class with a ton of features I was never able to add.

Any chance we could read some of these ideas?

takes out tracing paper
 

Lady Error

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so these retarded npcs like Argosyre attack me, i kill them and then everyone is angry with me... none can be reasoned with even at 100 diplomacy. good AI bro

I guess even the AI knows you're an asshole.
:incline:

If you search for his name, you will find that this particular instance has been discussed and explained before.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
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so these retarded npcs like Argosyre attack me, i kill them and then everyone is angry with me... none can be reasoned with even at 100 diplomacy. good AI bro

I guess even the AI knows you're an asshole.
:incline:

If you search for his name, you will find that this particular instance has been discussed and explained before.
can't seem to find the discussion. i searched for argosyre.
and it's not just argosyre. ahrimen or whatever his name was also wanted the tablet and attacked me for not giving it to him. then a merchant was furious because i killed him and attacked me.
i was able to bribe the dwarf merchant in crowl into liking me again, but if there is no other way of explainig to him that i was attacked and argosyre made human sacrifices to some demon, the whole interaction with npcs is kinda poor.
and when a merchant is furious you can't even try to talk to him without negotiatig first. and negotiation looks kinda retared to me. charm and 100 diplomacy sometimes making the npc just a little less furious and most of the time more.
also raghilda did nothing after me having found her sister sacrificed to a demon. like it was no big deal.
 

Lady Error

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can't seem to find the discussion. i searched for argosyre.

If you search for it not just in this thread, you will find:

I'm approaching the semi-"point of no return" in Crowl, since the only area I have left in the beginning of the game is Samhain. Question:

If I choose to kill Argosyre (yes I spoiled it, though it was obvious he was a sketchy dude anyway), I understand the whole town basically turns on me except the innkeeper whose asks you to save her sister--is it possible to restore relations back to friendly/neutral with the remaining townspeople? Do they restore on their own or do I have to scatter gold coins amongst the peasantry?

Give it some time and the animosity will fade - except for a few specially marked NPCs who never forgive.
Did Cleve himself write something about this?

This is what Cleve had to say on the matter

Do you think it is pretentious to say that Village of Crowl is based on real life? People always seem to have some horrible compromise they are willing to accept but it is forbidden to talk about because if they thought about it some more they'd realize they should not accept it. How much honest talk do you think the public could handle about the drones they pay for in the middle east floating around over remote areas killing unarmed women and children all day? Is it really any worse than feeding the occasional tourist to a demon to keep him belowground like they do in Crowl? I actually thought that the Village of Crowl is the least fantastic part of Grimoire for this reason. Technically, the only troublemakers in Crowl are the Heralds, who interfere with the natural order of things there.

The Vanguard is there to locate the "Owl Artifact" and they simply try to fit in with the locals. If the locals have had this custom of placating the demon for centuries then they do not think it is their business to interfere as long as the locals cooperate with them. If they cared about the Village they would probably start by taking the fire breathing bugs and singing murder hobos off the streets.

GandGolf

I read your post expressing concern about the negative reception that happens in Crowl at a certain point.

It's not that big a deal in terms of anything that needs to be changed. We're talking about a handful of characters, and at least one who stays friendly. The NPC interactions have a built in mechanic to negotiate, bribe and talk down anyone from a hostile disposition. Furthermore, by the time players reach this point, you will be almost finished with Crowl anyway. Of course, you can always return to Crowl, Grimoire being an open world and all. They say time has a way of healing emotional wounds.

As far as this in context of the story:

While Argosyre was a charlatan, and evil priest who sucked the life out of Crowl, he pretended to be a caretaker. The villagers are ignorant of the conspiracy with the Horror. So when they first learn about his death, naturally the NPCs are upset. Again, it's nothing that can't be remedied in game.

No, there should be an ability to tell everybody what he'd told me! I can't even tell the inn owner about his role in the disappearance of her sister.
They all act like I slaughtered a peaceful NPC, not defended myself from a raving lunatic. And I can't even explain myself!

You can. See that "negotiate" button and "diplomacy" skill? That's how you explain yourself.

Raghilda didn't care about Argosyre btw, and Trimestes was only mildly in the red. Only Gorlo, Krone and Smithers are really mad, and Gorlo can simply be bribed into neutrality. The other two, however, are still mad and can't be negotiated below red-5 despite already having green-10 from bribing. Probably needs better diplomacy skill.
 

Reapa

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can't seem to find the discussion. i searched for argosyre.

If you search for it not just in this thread, you will find:

I'm approaching the semi-"point of no return" in Crowl, since the only area I have left in the beginning of the game is Samhain. Question:

If I choose to kill Argosyre (yes I spoiled it, though it was obvious he was a sketchy dude anyway), I understand the whole town basically turns on me except the innkeeper whose asks you to save her sister--is it possible to restore relations back to friendly/neutral with the remaining townspeople? Do they restore on their own or do I have to scatter gold coins amongst the peasantry?

Give it some time and the animosity will fade - except for a few specially marked NPCs who never forgive.
Did Cleve himself write something about this?

This is what Cleve had to say on the matter

Do you think it is pretentious to say that Village of Crowl is based on real life? People always seem to have some horrible compromise they are willing to accept but it is forbidden to talk about because if they thought about it some more they'd realize they should not accept it. How much honest talk do you think the public could handle about the drones they pay for in the middle east floating around over remote areas killing unarmed women and children all day? Is it really any worse than feeding the occasional tourist to a demon to keep him belowground like they do in Crowl? I actually thought that the Village of Crowl is the least fantastic part of Grimoire for this reason. Technically, the only troublemakers in Crowl are the Heralds, who interfere with the natural order of things there.

The Vanguard is there to locate the "Owl Artifact" and they simply try to fit in with the locals. If the locals have had this custom of placating the demon for centuries then they do not think it is their business to interfere as long as the locals cooperate with them. If they cared about the Village they would probably start by taking the fire breathing bugs and singing murder hobos off the streets.

GandGolf

I read your post expressing concern about the negative reception that happens in Crowl at a certain point.

It's not that big a deal in terms of anything that needs to be changed. We're talking about a handful of characters, and at least one who stays friendly. The NPC interactions have a built in mechanic to negotiate, bribe and talk down anyone from a hostile disposition. Furthermore, by the time players reach this point, you will be almost finished with Crowl anyway. Of course, you can always return to Crowl, Grimoire being an open world and all. They say time has a way of healing emotional wounds.

As far as this in context of the story:

While Argosyre was a charlatan, and evil priest who sucked the life out of Crowl, he pretended to be a caretaker. The villagers are ignorant of the conspiracy with the Horror. So when they first learn about his death, naturally the NPCs are upset. Again, it's nothing that can't be remedied in game.

No, there should be an ability to tell everybody what he'd told me! I can't even tell the inn owner about his role in the disappearance of her sister.
They all act like I slaughtered a peaceful NPC, not defended myself from a raving lunatic. And I can't even explain myself!

You can. See that "negotiate" button and "diplomacy" skill? That's how you explain yourself.

Raghilda didn't care about Argosyre btw, and Trimestes was only mildly in the red. Only Gorlo, Krone and Smithers are really mad, and Gorlo can simply be bribed into neutrality. The other two, however, are still mad and can't be negotiated below red-5 despite already having green-10 from bribing. Probably needs better diplomacy skill.
ok, so they're all in on it, even raghilda...
though mistral only warned me about the "monastery/church" leader.
maybe mindread should be a little more fleshed out. it's not really mind reading if you only get fed what people are willing to talk about and not what you could ask them to talk about even with the risk of angering them. even just a line about the "murder/sacrifice" that gets answered with "i don't believe you" would do a good enough job of explaining what is really happening.
diplomacy is still brocken as it does basically nothing. you can bribe without it.
 

mondblut

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i was able to bribe the dwarf merchant in crowl into liking me again, but if there is no other way of explainig to him that i was attacked and argosyre made human sacrifices to some demon, the whole interaction with npcs is kinda poor.

Imagine, people believing a lifelong priest of their parish over a bunch of murderhobos who came out of nowhere and accused him of demon worship. Unfathomable.
 

Reapa

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i was able to bribe the dwarf merchant in crowl into liking me again, but if there is no other way of explainig to him that i was attacked and argosyre made human sacrifices to some demon, the whole interaction with npcs is kinda poor.

Imagine, people believing a lifelong priest of their parish over a bunch of murderhobos who came out of nowhere and accused him of demon worship. Unfathomable.
not quite.
not necessarily murder hobos. not quite out of nowhere. you do start to build trust. maybe even prestige as a group of heroes. remember you get rid of hobknob and the black lich. there's even acknowledgement from the vanguard for killing the black lich, avenging the expedition and finding their remains. there's acknowledgement from gorlo i believe for at least finding mistral and returning the book of spiders. acknowledgement from smithers for finding proof of his father's story. solving the case of the missing sister clara...
you'd think such news would spread fast especially in such a little community. as it actually does when you kill argosyre. even though he ambushes you in the baths and confesses his crime plus the intention to just murder you right there for attacking his deamon. surely if somebody is in the baths and survives to tell the story he would also hear argosyre's threats and confession.
only explanation would be they are all in on the little secret. and all the good you did doesn't make up for ruining their deal with the deamon.
and that's actually a good thing, because otherwise it would mean no actual thought was put into the story at all and npc attitude towards the player's party is just a badly implemented and poorly designed rpg feature in a dungeon crawler.
 
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Fowyr

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How many times in a playthrough do you typically change classes?
You can finish Grimoire without any class changing, but it somewhat helps. I started my game in the release version, gone through several patches and finished it in 2.X-something. Not only game worked with my old saves (thanks, Cleve, I really understand how hard that sort of compability is), it properly re-calculated needed XP for the next level when I hit it.

and this is from the wiki, assuming it's copied from the manual:
For fuck's sake, Reapa, that wiki was made for the fucking release version, when even crafting was useless and half-implemented and you had a very limited inventory space. Man, I just took a plain old standard party.
If you want to submit a bug report, at least properly confirm and test your issue.
 
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Fowyr

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I was always curious of this. So you can 100% beat the game in the same class as you started?
Yep, these alien catchers were a pain in the ass, but I beat them and mapped everything.
Are there any drawbacks that I'm not aware of?
Dunno, my party was surely subpar, I could make it a lot stronger with some save/loading and the proper party creation, but it was doable and very fun walkthrough. Will play again some time for sure. After all, I replay, for example, Wiz7 every 5-7 years.
 

Lady Error

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After all, I replay, for example, Wiz7 every 5-7 years.

I got the itch for it again and I played it only a couple years ago the last time. I think I still need to forget more again to properly enjoy it.

There is something magical about Wizardry 7 that is hard to describe.
 

Fowyr

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There is something magical about Wizardry 7 that is hard to describe.
Yep, I love Wiz7 to bits. It has so perfect balance of combat, exploration, story, atmosphere and the purple prose that is just feels right. Indeed, truly magical game. I always can close my eyes and recall the haunting sound of wind passing through the Nyctalinth's empty streets or just a feel of accomplisment when you find a hidden chest or a new area.
That's why Grimoire is so good, Cleve was the only man who could capture this elusive balance.

Citing myself from 2017:
Fowyr said:
New players? Fuck new players. Reasoning like yours gave us Fallout 3 and other abominations. I was sold when I held game in my grasp and saw that it's Wizardry. It's buggy, sometimes cumbersome, but fucking brilliant Wizardry. Fuck you all with your balance, fuck your "muh UI", fuck your "muh Armorplate is not visible in the charsheet"! Nothing of it matters! Because it's fucking Wizardry. It's the only game that could scratch my Wizardry 6/7 itch since fucking Wizardry 7!
My sage can't raise Music even for +1 in new version. Is it bad? Yes, it's bad, but it's a fucking Wizardry.
I can't raise throwing by flinging 50 daggers in general direction of bugs and moths? Fuck throwing. Most of throwable things are broken anyway. And it's a fucking Wizardry.
Stealth is not raising? Ok, but I already have two characters with Stealth 100 from version 1.0

Nothing fucking matters. Nothing. Because this mad megalomaniac Cleve brought the old magic back. He made fucking Wizardry!

Just look at exploding insects. Look at magic screen. Look at dungeons. Read purple prose. Disarm trap on the chest. Solve puzzle.

Yea, it's Wizardry. And I'm happy.
BTW, stealth and music are rising now, it was just a growing pains. Can't remember about throwing.
 
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Cleveland Mark Blakemore

Golden Era Games
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Darkest Dungeon is so amazingly complex and nuanced in the combat I can only sit there in envy. I hope with the help of the FUDGE system my next RPG is that well balanced.

The guys who did Darkest Dungeon did such an incredible job on the game. They tweaked it to perfection. The combat is so difficult even on the easiest setting it remains challenging at any level.

The character classes are so much better than typical D&D inspired clones. Every RPG should try to learn from this game.

The balance of bandages, torches and no healing outside of camping and combat makes this game tough even when you have improved your characters.
 

Efe

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did you play deepest dark mod which was made by a fellow codexer?
He was their most fervent supporter and became their most spammy enemy after they diverged from his vision.
 

Fluent

Arcane
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Ok, a quick question if i may.

Do enemies not drop loot? Or just not at the start of the game? I beat the Green Hand Gang first encounter and didn't get any of their gear. Is that normal?
 

Fluent

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Thanks Fowyr ! :)

Another question if i may. Is there any way to assay an item before u purchase it?
 

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