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Which game killed the shooter genre?

Lyric Suite

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The obsession with photorealism in games is funny.

If only there was such an obession.

The truth is that the obsession is with being "cinematographic", borrowing shit from shitty film or photography techniques.

Realism is actually great and you don't even need to have super advanced graphics to achieve it, you just need a juidicious use of conventional effects and techniques. Look how pleasurable Automobilista looks despite running on an old ass enginge:



Of course, if you want to go balls out with graphic fidelity, you still can and come out with something that looks good. Take Flight Simulator 2020.

However, most AAA games don't really go with realism but they all use cheap photographic effects because that garbage wows the retarded normies who lap this shit up. Lens flares, bloom, motion blur, depth of field, vignetting, all that fucking retarded shit that makes the game look LESS real not to mention piss brown or piss green filters, unnatural lighting etc.

The video comparison you posted shows exactly what i mean. A game that tried to achieved the "realism" of the real life footage of that plane would be great. But outside of sims you wouldn't get that.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Been playing Far Cry 5 recently cause I do enjoy running around a big landscape and shooting people.

What I hate is that the game's graphic options don't include the ability to switch off individual effects, only a generic "low - medium - high - ulta" graphics setting.
Which means I get those fucking lens flares.

LENS FLARES DON'T EXIST IRL, FFS, NOT EVEN WHEN YOU WEAR GLASSES
WHAT IS THIS SHIT
 

Silva

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Been playing Far Cry 5 recently cause I do enjoy running around a big landscape and shooting people.

What I hate is that the game's graphic options don't include the ability to switch off individual effects, only a generic "low - medium - high - ulta" graphics setting.
Which means I get those fucking lens flares.

LENS FLARES DON'T EXIST IRL, FFS, NOT EVEN WHEN YOU WEAR GLASSES
WHAT IS THIS SHIT
Hollywood > real life.

:kingcomrade:
 

samuraigaiden

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RPG Wokedex
Games not only aren't photorealistic, characters all look like the same kind of plastic dolls. 3D graphics were a mistake
 

Lyric Suite

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Joined
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Messages
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I don't understand the appeal of this. Screen constantly shaking with lights everywhere with no rhyme or reason. Like one of those shooting galleries from 90s arcades, but worse.

If this is considered a good shooter nowadays, I want to be away from the genre.


You are focusing on the aesthetics (which i agree are shit and uneccessary as Doom 2016 itself wasn't as bright as this while being basically the same game) and not on what is actually happening. Have you played the game?

The reason why it is a "good" shooter (for todays standards) is that unlike the popeamole CoD shit this makes real demands on the player. In particular, this game forces you into that same forward playstyle that used to be the exclusive of online shooters. The guy isn't playing like that for show, and i readily admit i couldn't do what he does, all though my boomer ass can get close (and you have to on nightmare unless you enjoy dying over and over).

I think a game like this being made today is notable. Compared to how piss easy other shooters are, whether it's Call of Duty clones or Far Cry bullshit or any of the shit that's popular today, nuDoom just stands out by virtue of actually delivering a can of whoop ass on the player.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
Then play Doom, some of the more slaughterish wads, or Quake singleplayer.

I don't think you know who you are talking to. This is a snip of my collection of Doom wads:

Capture.jpg


Yes, i have all the Top 100 Wads as well as every Cacoward winner and a bunch of others i tried and deemed worthy of keeping (and the folder grows larger all the time). Inside each folder i have the content of the wad plus a bat file to quickly load the wad in gzdoom (which i use because it can run pretty much every wad i throw at it, bite me i like the convenience):

gzdoom -IWAD DOOM2.WAD -file REVERIE.wad -deh reverie.deh

And i play them all in ultra violence with the "fast" command (i find monster respawning irritating so i don't like nightmare).

I even went to the extend of writing a simple batch file to load collection of single wads like the master levels:

@ECHO OFF
CLS
ECHO John Anderson (Dr. Sleep):
ECHO.
ECHO a. 1st Canto: Dante's Gate v2.5
ECHO b. 2nd Canto: Crossing Acheron 2
ECHO c.3rd Canto: Virgil's Lead
ECHO d.4th Canto: Minos' Judgement
ECHO e.5th Canto: Nessus
ECHO f.6th Canto: Geryon
ECHO g.7th Canto: Vesperas
ECHO.
ECHO Jim Flynn:
ECHO.
ECHO h.Titan Manor
ECHO i.Trapped on Titan
ECHO.
ECHO Christen Klie:
ECHO.
ECHO j.The Catwalk
ECHO k.The Combine
ECHO l.The Fistula
ECHO m.The Garrison
ECHO n.Subspace
ECHO o.Subterra
ECHO.
ECHO Sverre Andre' Kvernmo (Cranium):
ECHO.
ECHO p.Black Tower
ECHO q.Bloodsea Keep
ECHO r.Mephisto's Maosoleum
ECHO s.1) The Express Elevator to Hell
ECHO 2) Bad Dream
ECHO.
ECHO Tom Mustaine:
ECHO t.Paradox
ECHO u. Doom2 Map14 Homage
ECHO.
ECHO Tim Willits:
ECHO.
ECHO v.Attack
ECHO w.Canyon
ECHO.

set /p op=Type option:
if "%op%"=="a" goto Dante's Gate
if "%op%"=="b" goto Crossing Acheron
if "%op%"=="c" goto Virgil's Lead
if "%op%"=="d" goto Minos' Judgement
if "%op%"=="e" goto Nessus
if "%op%"=="f" goto Geryon
if "%op%"=="g" goto Vesperas
if "%op%"=="h" goto Titan Manor
if "%op%"=="i" goto Trapped on Titan
if "%op%"=="j" goto Catwalk
if "%op%"=="k" goto Combine
if "%op%"=="l" goto Fistula
if "%op%"=="m" goto Garrison
if "%op%"=="n" goto Subspace
if "%op%"=="o" goto Subterra
if "%op%"=="p" goto Black Tower
if "%op%"=="q" goto Bloodsea Keep
if "%op%"=="r" goto Mephisto's Maosoleum
if "%op%"=="s" goto Express Elevator to Hell
if "%op%"=="t" goto Paradox
if "%op%"=="u" goto Map14
if "%op%"=="v" goto Attack
if "%op%"=="w" goto Canyon

:Dante's Gate
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file DANTE25.WAD +MAP MAP02 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Crossing Acheron
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file ACHERON2.WAD +MAP MAP03 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Virgil's Lead
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file VIRGIL.WAD +MAP MAP03 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Minos' Judgement
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file MINOS.WAD +MAP MAP05 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Nessus
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file NESSUS.WAD +MAP MAP07 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Geryon
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file GERYON.WAD +MAP MAP08 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Vesperas
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file VESPERAS.WAD +MAP MAP09 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Titan Manor
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file MANOR.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Trapped on Titan
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file TTRAP.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Catwalk
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file CATWALK.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Combine
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file COMBINE.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Fistula
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file FISTULA.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Garrison
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file GARRISON.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Subspace
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file SUBSPACE.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Subterra
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file SUBTERRA.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Black Tower
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file BLACKTWR.WAD +MAP MAP25 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Bloodsea Keep
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file BLOODSEA.WAD +MAP MAP07 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Mephisto's Maosoleum
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file MEPHISTO.WAD +MAP MAP07 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Express Elevator to Hell
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file TEETH.WAD +MAP MAP31 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Paradox
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file PARADOX.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Map14
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file TWM01.WAD +MAP MAP03 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Attack
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file ATTACK.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:Canyon
gzdoom.exe -IWAD doom2.wad -file CANYON.WAD +MAP MAP01 -skill 4 -fast
GOTO End

:exit
@exit

I have a similar collection for Quake maps, Thief and other games.

On my Quake collection i've even gone as far as put the RATING of the map as given by users on Quaddicted:

Capture1.jpg


Yes, i'm that fucking autistic lmao.
 
Last edited:

passerby

Arcane
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
2,788

I don't understand the appeal of this. Screen constantly shaking with lights everywhere with no rhyme or reason. Like one of those shooting galleries from 90s arcades, but worse.

If this is considered a good shooter nowadays, I want to be away from the genre.


You are focusing on the aesthetics (which i agree are shit and uneccessary as Doom 2016 itself wasn't as bright as this while being basically the same game) and not on what is actually happening. Have you played the game?

The reason why it is a "good" shooter (for todays standards) is that unlike the popeamole CoD shit this makes real demands on the player. In particular, this game forces you into that same forward playstyle that used to be the exclusive of online shooters. The guy isn't playing like that for show, and i readily admit i couldn't do what he does, all though my boomer ass can get close (and you have to on nightmare unless you enjoy dying over and over).

I think a game like this being made today is notable. Compared to how piss easy other shooters are, whether it's Call of Duty clones or Far Cry bullshit or any of the shit that's popular today, nuDoom just stands out by virtue of actually delivering a can of whoop ass on the player.


The running speed is too slow, so if you want to play efficiently you have to dash, or graple hook everywhere, instead of running, jumping and strafing.
They've basically reduced mobility and jumping challenges to an awesome button, just look where you wan't too get and press the button.

They've also removed resource management with pinatas scalled to the amount of resources you have and pressure of being cornered by melee mobs with glorykills.
I guess glory kills and pinatas are mechanically a minor improvements over health regen and melee takedowns of generic modern military shooters, but it looks absolutely attrocius instead.

"Always push forward" style is repetitive and boring and average CoD also forces you into it, because if you don't push forward and block them respawn points, they won't stop comming.
It's the ultimate instant gratification, sensory overload design for adhd kids.
 
Last edited:

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
I don't disagree with any of that but the fact remains the game is still hard and requires skill. The same cannot be said for CoD or Ubishit garbage.

It's also something new. This isn't classic Doom but it's not Serious Sam either. In the current desert that is the modern shooter scene, nuDoom just stood out to me and i managed to finish both Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, which is a rare thing indeed considering i don't even remember the last time i tried a modern shooter.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,778
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil

I don't understand the appeal of this. Screen constantly shaking with lights everywhere with no rhyme or reason. Like one of those shooting galleries from 90s arcades, but worse.

If this is considered a good shooter nowadays, I want to be away from the genre.


You are focusing on the aesthetics (which i agree are shit and uneccessary as Doom 2016 itself wasn't as bright as this while being basically the same game) and not on what is actually happening. Have you played the game?

The reason why it is a "good" shooter (for todays standards) is that unlike the popeamole CoD shit this makes real demands on the player. In particular, this game forces you into that same forward playstyle that used to be the exclusive of online shooters. The guy isn't playing like that for show, and i readily admit i couldn't do what he does, all though my boomer ass can get close (and you have to on nightmare unless you enjoy dying over and over).

I think a game like this being made today is notable. Compared to how piss easy other shooters are, whether it's Call of Duty clones or Far Cry bullshit or any of the shit that's popular today, nuDoom just stands out by virtue of actually delivering a can of whoop ass on the player.

You may have a point. Maybe I'm just not a fan of "pure" shooters then. I loved Half-Life 1 and Stalker for the atmosphere, I love R6 and GR and ARMA for realism, I love Overwatch and Siege for the teamwork. Now that I think of it, the actual shooting is always secondary to other elements for me. Interesting.

Btw, yeah I got nuDoom on a sale. Played 2 hours and dropped it in disgust.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164

I don't understand the appeal of this. Screen constantly shaking with lights everywhere with no rhyme or reason. Like one of those shooting galleries from 90s arcades, but worse.

If this is considered a good shooter nowadays, I want to be away from the genre.


You are focusing on the aesthetics (which i agree are shit and uneccessary as Doom 2016 itself wasn't as bright as this while being basically the same game) and not on what is actually happening. Have you played the game?

The reason why it is a "good" shooter (for todays standards) is that unlike the popeamole CoD shit this makes real demands on the player. In particular, this game forces you into that same forward playstyle that used to be the exclusive of online shooters. The guy isn't playing like that for show, and i readily admit i couldn't do what he does, all though my boomer ass can get close (and you have to on nightmare unless you enjoy dying over and over).

I think a game like this being made today is notable. Compared to how piss easy other shooters are, whether it's Call of Duty clones or Far Cry bullshit or any of the shit that's popular today, nuDoom just stands out by virtue of actually delivering a can of whoop ass on the player.

You may have a point. Maybe I'm just not a fan of "pure" shooters then. I loved Half-Life 1 and Stalker for the atmosphere, I love R6 and GR and ARMA for realism, I love Overwatch and Siege for the teamwork. Now that I think of it, the actual shooting is always secondary to other elements for me. Interesting.

Btw, yeah I got nuDoom on a sale. Played 2 hours and dropped it in disgust.


That's fair, and it's worth pointing out that the original Doom had plenty of atmosphere despite being a pure arcade game with very little realism which is one of the things that made it great to me as a kid.

With that said, i just have a tendency to take things for what they are and judge them according to what they set out to achieve as opposed to whether they run counter to a personal preference.

Thus, the things i dislike about the nuDoom games are those things that are indipendent of the core gameplay. I mentioned how i disliked the oversure of bright effects in Eternal compared to Doom 2016. I dislike the try hard bullshit, the "rip and tear" shit and all that dude bro crap. I dislike the lack of real level design, or even that the levels just don't feel like real places at all (Eternal is worst than Doom 2016 in this respect). By "real" places i don't mean that they like realism in design (original Doom was even less coherent in that respect), but that you don't feel any connection with your surroundings at all. It's all visual fluff basically, like the backgrounds in a side scroller or beat 'em up game.

I also disliked all the fourth wall braking shit. The collectible dolls, the lives system. It's like the devs think this shit is Mario or something.

But with all that said, i actually find the core gameplay notable in that they did a very good job in achieving what they set out to achieve. Even from a sheer technical point of view it's actually a kind of small marvel that this shit works the way it does. The enemies have so much mobility, so many animations and attack patterns it's remarkable that the experience is so smooth and doesn't devolve into a janky clusterfuck. The only reason the game is disorienting at times is not because of the visual diarriah or anything wrong with the AI (which is actually quite clever, try playing peek a boo with an imp around a corner) but because of the crappy sound design.

In essense, the game is basically the very definition of being good for what it is, actually even great for what it is. Now what it is may seem questionable but in the state of modern gaming it is notable that there's something out there that is actually good at something.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
The running speed is too slow, so if you want to play efficiently you have to dash, or graple hook everywhere, instead of running, jumping and strafing.

That's because they want the game to be a success on consoles.

It's a fair thing to critisize but it is also worth pointing out that those things are trying to circumvent an obstacle over which they have no control, because modern standards are what they are.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Messages
56,164
Invisible War is more of an example of decline due to consoles, the main thing affected being the level design due to the smaller memory of the Xbox. Same as Thief 3.
 
Last edited:

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,778
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
In essense, the game is basically the very definition of being good for what it is, actually even great for what it is. Now what it is may seem questionable but in the state of modern gaming it is notable that there's something out there that is actually good at something.
Ok I can see where you're coming from regarding nuDoom, but I think you're exagerating at this point. We're chock full of great games these days and have been for some time now. We're not in late 00s anymore where some dumb CoD formula was milked to death by the industry. I'm at my PS4 menu screen RN and I see Lego Marvel, Overwatch, Sekiro and Darkwood, all them actually good at something, as you said. So cut this crap.
 
Last edited:

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
Been playing Far Cry 5 recently cause I do enjoy running around a big landscape and shooting people.

What I hate is that the game's graphic options don't include the ability to switch off individual effects, only a generic "low - medium - high - ulta" graphics setting.
Which means I get those fucking lens flares.

LENS FLARES DON'T EXIST IRL, FFS, NOT EVEN WHEN YOU WEAR GLASSES
WHAT IS THIS SHIT

Depth of field and motion blur are the worst offenders to me, because of how ubiquitous (and pointless) they are. The Witcher games are a particularly egregious example lmao:

lETvNfw.jpeg


Witcher 3 is better but not by much, and while you can turn that shit off in game cinematics still have it:

dabq9xl-1b913dd2-96a9-48a0-8466-d26624d6a053.png


I don't know about you, but i don't fucking develop macular degeneration in my peripheral vision whenever i focus on an object but hey, maybe my eyes are different.

Another series where this effect makes the games look like fucking shit is Dark Souls. Those games look SOOOOOO much better without it. I just don't understand what the fuck the devs are thinking. I was SO relieved when i discovered you can even turn it off in Demon Souls on the PS3 emulator.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
my PS4... Overwatch....

Overwatch lmao.

I'll take dude bro try hard over faggotry any day. But it's particularly egregious that you are playing this shit on a console.

Did you try to play nuDoom on a console too?
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Messages
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My point is there's a lot of great games these days. nuDoom is not some lone oasis in some sea of shit as you tried to say.

The problem is that what i said was about shooters specifically. This is what the topic was about right? Shooters and their ongoing decline over the years. What i said regarding the nuDoom games was about that. And nuDoom IS in fact a lone oasis when it comes to shooters, at least in the AAA sphere (i was watching a playthrough of Metro Exodus for instance and it looked boring as shit).

When i played the game all i could think is how the fuck did CoD retards managed to cope with this and that alone pleased me. Also the fact the game is too teh hard for journalists is also amusing.
 

Silva

Arcane
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Isn't Overwatch, Rainbow Siege, Dishonored 2, STALKER COP, etc shooters? They seems less twitchy, acephalous and run'n'gunny, and more reliant on actual thinking and sound tactics than nuDoom to me.

Or are you saying a good shooter is synonymous to acephalous run'n'gun gameplay where you just fire everything that moves or blinks on screen, likie that nuDoom vid of yours?

:hmmm:
 

Lyric Suite

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Well, yes, pretty much.

The fact Overwatch requires "thinking" makes it a bad shooter in my eyes, because in that setting "thinking" means twitch skill is removed to accomodate scrubs. That is a common trend among a lot of online shooters. I remember watching a video about Battlefront where the guy showed how guns would sometimes hit at random, which to me just obliterates any illusion skill matters in those kind of games. A good Doom Eternal player could potentially become a good Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament player. The same cannot be said for a lot of those squad or team based modern shooters.

Other games that shift focus from twitch skill to "thinking" end up being cathegorized as a different genre. Deus Ex is a "immersive sim" and thus not in the same genre as Doom and by extension there shouldn't be any competition between the two (what base of comparison could there even be? Deus Ex has more complex tactics but Doom has infinitely better gunplay). I never played Dishonered but i think that falls more in line with a Deus Ex than Doom.

And of course one has to remember that the game is called Doom. What else would you expect given the legacy attached to this name? Doom 3 tried to steer away from the twitch nature of series and it ended up being fucking shit as a result.
 

Lemming42

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Anyone saying Half-Life killed FPS games is way off the mark. With the likes of Unreal, Shogo, SiN, Blood 2, etc, the shift away from abstract mazes to linear, sometimes script-heavy, setpiece-based stuff was already well underway. And yes, you can very convincingly argue that this was already seeing its roots in the likes of Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior and Blood.

Half-Life gets all the blame for introducing "cinematic" content simply because it was the first one to do it really well, and achieved widespread success due to its accessibility and high quality. If it wasn't for Half-Life, we'd have still ended up with Call of Duty anyway, only there might have been a few more years of fumbling about with half-baked shit like Shogo and Requiem: Avenging Angel before someone finally struck gold.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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I think that development was just inevitable.

Let's not forget Carmack was inspired by Ultima Underworld and that game was very heavy on the simulationist aspect. Now sure Doom and company were action gmes and not sims but there was an underlying push towards "realism" due to the nature of the perspective. As a kid it was "impressive" that you could jump in Hexen, that you could raise your view up and down, that you could interact with objects in Duke3D etc. The push for realism was there from the beginning.
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
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May 14, 2020
Messages
2,476
Today I fired up a console FPS, and was greeted by a game dumbed down for console kiddies, complete with regenerating health and awful aiming controls. It was awful, enemies and weapons were indistinguishable from one another, and level design was the most basic of basic, obviously done so to fit within the weak nature of the console.
What game did I play? Why it was 1991's Faceball 2000. Is Faceball 2000 responsible for killing the modern shooter? No. Obviously not. The only point I'm making is that everything awful existed alongside all the great games of the past. Obviously we all remember Josephine: Portrait of an Assassin, the cinematic masterpiece that killed off non-cinematic shooters. Or Medal of Honor or Spec Ops, which dumbed things down for the console kiddies. The first multiplayer-only shooter dates from 1996 or something.

The real answer is the same with any other genre, once B-level developers died off or got funneled into making garbage for whoever bought them off, all that was left was random indie games and AAA games. The only indie shooter I remember from the latter half of the 2000s was Sauerbraten, which was good, not great, not bad. It was a cool game, but limiting in so many ways.
Actually scratch that, Gears of War can be blamed for everything wrong with TPS games. Because every TPS after Gears is that game slightly altered in some way.
 

seco

Educated
Joined
Jun 17, 2021
Messages
90
Half Life was never good.
As bad as COD, Halo, Goldeneye, Quake 2 and other popamole garbage.
 

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