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Vapourware Barkley 2 - the new Codex vaporware champion

buffalo bill

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
1,007
real talk though

if this game came out, it would basically just be an even meme-ier Enter the Gungeon with a basketball minigame (so, it's really for the best that it didn't come out)
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,320
Source Code released and project is super dead
Hey there!

You might be wondering what is going on with everyone's favourite project, Barkley 2.

Well, sit down, because it's a long story.

I am Paperjack, a programmer who got onboard the project because I was also worried about the project's status, so I just contacted the Tales' of Games FaceBook page (yes, I'm old) and I just so happened to appear at the right place and right time.

I will tell you how it all went down from my own viewpoint - keep in mind I was never part of the Original Tales Of Games team, just someone who hopped in trying to help at the very end of the story. What I will comment here is from a purely technical viewpoint and doesn't have anything to do with the team's interpersonal relationships.

The project has a very long history (almost 10 years in the making!) and this is reflected in the project itself. I was the last of a long line of programmers who came into the project, each with their own vision of how things should work, and everyone was doing their best to deliver this huge, ambitious game.

What I want to say is that I don't want to diminish the efforts of anyone - it is clear that there was passion AND effort, and a lot of both. They didn't "steal" the money by lazying around, the developers spent a huge amount of time on all of this, creating code and content.

But why is it that there isn't much to show then, you might ask?

When you work on a complex task, eventually mid-way through it becomes clear that there are better ways to do things.

Developers are then faced with a really hard choice, which is whether to start from the beginning, using the better methods, or to try to compromise and try to combine the new with the old.

Doing it from the beginning is the best option long-term, however it is slow, expensive and boring to do: you're redoing things you've already done, afterall.

Merging the methods tends to be much faster, however it introduces chaos into the system. It is hard to explain, but imagine building a house and halfway through, you decide to switch the plans with ones from a different architect. The new architect takes in mind what's already been built, however their own style and way of making things is very different. As a result, you will have a liveable house, but it will be disjointed.

Usually, people choose the latter because of a very simple reason: budget and time constraints. You don't have the time to start from scratch, because your development time is literally bound to a finite budget (in our case, the KS money + other funds the team members had).

As the game quickly grew in size and scope, this problem happened quite a few times, and the latter choice happened often.

Eventually, the codebase became chaotic, clunky and hard to work with. Things were all over the place, it wasn't clear what did what, legacy code was forgotten and standards were not constant. It became very frustrating to work on anything, but you could not simply restart from scratch and do things correctly because you do not have the money for it.

I do not blame the previous developers for this, it is an extremely common problem in larger software projects, as any experienced software engineer can attest.

When the project was announced and funded via KS, it was the very beginning of the video game Kickstarters. A lot of people just did not know how much it cost to make a video game, nor about the nuances of what it all implied. In short, they overpromised for the money they requested.

But, the main problem - and difference from a lot of other failed projects - was that they *cared*. That’s right, they all really cared about actually delivering the best game they could, but life is never so simple.

The developers were really enthusiastic at the beginning, but the sheer scope of the project and bad pacing (a lot of crunch happened), combined with the worsening technical state of the project, eventually ground them down and they burned out.

Going down the project's files you can literally feel the state of mind they had and how it was getting more and more negative. The last parts that were done are quite fucked up (in a literary sense, rather than qualitative) and you can feel them trying to let out their frustrations.

Eventually, the funds ran out. You might think 120k USD is a lot of money, but just calculate expenses for a couple of people and it's really not that much. It's two years at 12k USD for 5 people (only 1000 USD/mo!).

However, the TOG developers still kept going and developing FOR YEARS, basically for free. This really made me respect their discipline, but it clearly had a very heavy mental toll.

They didn’t just ditch the project, or request more money. Silently, they kept toiling away, chipping at the massive project in the dark.

Combining the burnout and forcing themselves to work for years, what inevitably happened was an explosion. I don't want to give names - neither do I know them, nor have worked with them - but it is a natural result of the environment that was created. I do not blame or accuse them of anything other than giving their best, I just honestly think that it was unavoidable.

Everyone was tired, burned out and penniless: the best kind of situation to ruin friendships and turn disagreements into hostilities. Small slights keep piling up and there’s no good experiences to wipe them away. Marriages get ruined for far less.

I come in the picture just after the explosion (or implosion?) happened, fresh like a flower and ignorant of the drama, and just concentrated on releasing the demo. I fixed some bugs and packaged it up. I did it for free because I was a fan of the original and I did not want my dream to end.

After we released the demo, I looked back at the whole project: the original GM2 project is massive and there's so much remaining that, for me, is unfeasible to complete it without a budget or completely rescoping the project. I selfishly gave the latter a few shots, unsuccessfully.

As more time passed without me or anyone touching the project, I realized that B2 had no future as it is right now.

We finally arrive at today, where after a long discussion, I finally decided to release all the files as open source.

Here they are:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-HMRcbGIB0sdqZLqpla8IPKiPvzWq95/view?usp=shari...

I hope this post gave you all some more insight on the project and why what happened has happened. I don’t hold bad feelings toward anyone, I just would like for B2 to see the light of the day, someday.

Feel free to contact me for anything, really.

Have a good day!

- PaperJack
 

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,044
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Good on them for releasing the source code, I guess. I doubt anyone will want to touch 10 years worth of technical debt on GameMaker 2 of all things but the assets are nice to have.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
Comments by Lazrool and GZ Storm over at Something Awful are worth reading. Excerpt:

Going down the project's files you can literally feel the state of mind they had and how it was getting more and more negative. The last parts that were done are quite hosed up (in a literary sense, rather than qualitative) and you can feel them trying to let out their frustrations.

This existed from beginning. One of the earliest ideas in the game was Hoopz getting tortured in prison and then ending up in a wheelchair. The tone of this game was dark from the beginning for reasons I cannot understand. I personally argued against this when I saw these instances to little success.

The developers were really enthusiastic at the beginning, but the sheer scope of the project and bad pacing (a lot of crunch happened), combined with the worsening technical state of the project, eventually ground them down and they burned out.

This is false. The game was unplayable when I came on board. By the time me and Laz quit, the game was workable and it's why we were able to get so much done. Technical problems were not the reason this game died or why people got burned out.
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,704
Location
Republic of Kongou
Maybe one day some fans will dig through the files and make Barkley 2 the visual novel.
Sadly the chances of said fans also being fags is dangerously high.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,573
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hey wait, if they released all the stuff, does that mean the music is out there somewhere? I still want that soundtrack.
 

Lokiamis

Learned
Joined
Aug 26, 2019
Messages
193
Comments by Lazrool and GZ Storm over at Something Awful are worth reading. Excerpt:

Going down the project's files you can literally feel the state of mind they had and how it was getting more and more negative. The last parts that were done are quite hosed up (in a literary sense, rather than qualitative) and you can feel them trying to let out their frustrations.

This existed from beginning. One of the earliest ideas in the game was Hoopz getting tortured in prison and then ending up in a wheelchair. The tone of this game was dark from the beginning for reasons I cannot understand. I personally argued against this when I saw these instances to little success.

The developers were really enthusiastic at the beginning, but the sheer scope of the project and bad pacing (a lot of crunch happened), combined with the worsening technical state of the project, eventually ground them down and they burned out.

This is false. The game was unplayable when I came on board. By the time me and Laz quit, the game was workable and it's why we were able to get so much done. Technical problems were not the reason this game died or why people got burned out.

The wheelchair thing sounds like it would have been a FF7 parody, given the trailer.
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
3,559
These weird guns look so damn cool.
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MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
While I stopped playing the first game midway through, its bonkers exuberance was pretty great while my patience held out. It was an early meme game, both absorbing memes (e.g., with Wilford Brimley) and creating new ones. I was always a fan of this project, but it never seemed remotely likely to reach the finish line. As with Octopus City Blues, I feel like there is a point where the ironic nihilism posturing infects the actual development. It's one thing to satirize Borderlands (or Spore or whatever it was) by saying you are going to have 10,000 gun's (that was the orthography, right?); it's something else to then let that joke lead you to actually trying to implement it. Barkley 1 would've made the joke, but known it was a joke. With Barkley 2, that's not so. For instance, I remember a post in which they claimed their quest system would revolutionize RPGs -- to this day, I don't know if that was a joke, delusion, or there actually was some great quest they were going to deliver.

When I read "they all really cared about actually delivering the best game they could," I can't help but admire the spirit, but I'm not sure players needed or even initially wanted a game that would overshadow Secret of Mana and become the greatest 16-bit-action-jRPG ever. I think what people wanted was the mix of memes, absurd NBA frame story, and jRPG genre savviness delivered with anime-style epic melodrama.

Looking at the assets, it's obvious that they could've massively narrowed the gameplay, kept the art/sound/story, and delivered something that would've been beloved. (Though, to be clear, even with the most modest gameplay, making a full 16-bit-action-jRPG is not easy; it's just easier than what they were aspiring to.) IMO, the inability for them to retrench in that way is less about "caring" and perhaps more about the ironic marketing infecting the development.

Anyway, the saga of the game's development certainly provided memories and interesting fodder for memes, so in the end, I think they did what they promised.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
As with Octopus City Blues, I feel like there is a point where the ironic nihilism posturing infects the actual development.

Octopus City Blues seems to be a real labor of love, though. They also have steady bi-monthly updates and offer full refunds to anyone who asks, and already released a demo. There seems to be scope creep, but that's not uncommon with these kinds of projects.

Barkley 2 seems to have been hurt a lot by incompetent management at the top (by someone who wasn't part of the original team) more than anything. GZ Storm's posts on Something Awful (starting at page 228) are worth reading (as well as the discussion that follows where other Barkley 2 developers jump in). He's the only member of the original team that wasn't part of the Kickstarter, and the only one who didn't ghost the project:

Chef vanished from the project 2 1/2 years ago. I've tried contacting him multiple times and haven't received a response. Bort left around the same time to be a family man.

The Kickstarter was not necessary, especially in hindsight. The majority of work on this game was unpaid. Myself, Bort, and Chef are the original Barkley 1 creators. I did not join the Kickstarter with them because I was aware of the many problems that could (and did) arise.

I was asked to join the project 3 years after the KS when the project had little money and was in shambles. I was committed to trying to finish the game but it was consistently set back by horrible management and I ended up quitting. The person who owns ToG and is running it now had nothing to do with Barkley 1 and has zero game dev experience. He is the ToG PR guy.

When I quit, Lazrool also quit. We were the only two remaining who understood the technical inner workings of this game. Laz worked on this project nearly from the start, pro bono, and was tired of the nonsense as well.

There is no incentive for "ToG" or anyone attached to the KS to talk about this debacle.

About how someone's brother, who had no involvement with Barkley 1, took control of the project:

This project was started by Chef, Bort, and Bort's brother. I don't know why things were done the way they were, but Bort's brother registered the ToG corporation and is the sole owner of it. All work done on contract is owned by ToG, which I'd say is about 35% of the total work. The remaining work was to be negotiated for percentages, etc.

It was always presented that myself, Bort, and Chef had some kind of control of the company. However, when things started going very badly on this project and I pressed Bort's brother, it was essentially admitted that we have no control and we're stuck with him. No one ever agreed to this, but on paper he does own the company.

It does sound like the "let's be weird to be weird" mentality went overboard and hurt the project, but it honestly sounds like everything went overboard and hurt the project (read the post someone made about adding in the height system). Anyway, after GZ Storm and Lazrool left (GZ Storm made an ultimatum for the management to back off and left when they said no) they went on to make a number of weird games on Steam that seem to have been well received (never played them myself).
 

UserNamer

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
692
Can't believe I missed this demo. It sounds and looks cool. Does anyone knows how to escape the area you end up in when you die too much?

Anyway super buggy as expected. I saved Wilhelm then came back later and he was evicted and the dialogue was about spending the money before going to the housing place. Some guns crash you to the desktop.

It looks surprisingly good on my TV, too bad you can't really play with the gamepad.

It makes me sad to think what happened to the project but I think I'll be able to take some hours of enjoyment from the demo
 

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