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RNG or Determinism?

RNG or Determinism

  • RNG

    Votes: 54 65.9%
  • Determinism

    Votes: 28 34.1%

  • Total voters
    82

Lord of Riva

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Determinism is only "inferior" to RNG if the system used is not complex enough.

Even in a fully determined system, a player does not have to have all information at hand therefore it is not akin to a puzzle.
Most games are already infinitely more complex than a game of chess and chess is something that Humans can not fully grasp, without tools.

There is no reason for RNG unless you want an easy way out. Also the more RNG there is, the less skill can be achieved. I do not know why this is preferred so clearly.
you're overlooking that chess is played against people, and when it is played against AI it's not comparable because it has a massively smaller decision space/complexity than even a relatively "simplistic" RPG

Ah that is why you mentioned pvp, I somehow misinterpreted that.

You are correct Determinism is much easier to defend when it comes to PvP as the determined values can be analysed based on player input.
However, if a system is complex enough an AI can make equally determined choices and for all intends an purposes it would be equal to what RNG achieves, while still following logic, instead of an approximation of chance (because, as well all know real RNG is tricky)
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
However, if a system is complex enough an AI can make equally determined choices and for all intends an purposes it would be equal to what RNG achieves, while still following logic, instead of an approximation of chance (because, as well all know real RNG is tricky)
The problem is that non-simple games are insanely complex and there's a state-space explosion. No matter how you want to measure complexity, games like Chess(and even Go) aren't even in the same ballpark as more complex games.
Decent article on it about SC2, which obviously not an RPG, is closer to an RPG in complexity than an RPG is to Chess: https://www.cs.mun.ca/~dchurchill/pdf/starcraft_survey.pdf
OYOJEAC.png


I knew there would be "chess is deterministic" arguments, and this is a major issue with it. The AI just isn't on the same level.
 

Saduj

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No, but I obviously don't think it should happen one out of every twenty times when we're talking about someone skilled enough to kill supernatural beasts.

The thing with probability, when it is weighed against the characters skill (and with those odds), is that you might never see it happen, but you might also see it often. You know this of course, but the point is that the odds reflect the "situation" at hand and tell the player that nobody is perfect. This keeps the player somewhat on the edge even when he is "supposed to be" the greatest swordsman alive, and has him thinking about followup tactics at the possible, but unlikely, failure.

It doesn't matter why the "master" failed, that's something for the player to ponder if he wishes. But he did nonetheless. Did a master swordsman get killed by a rat against all odds? Well, ain't that a story to figure about an tell?
Sometimes overconfidence is a thing.

You can argue that something that is mobile and aware it is being attacked always has a chance of moving out of the way and I can't disagree totally (but I still don't think an epic hero is missing a peasant 1/20 times). I guess I should have used a more extreme example in my first post. What I don't like is when there HAS to be a 5% chance to miss in EVERY situation. It also tends to work the opposite way too: Reach a high enough skill level and to-hit is ALWAYS 95%. That is too high in many circumstances (and necessitates hit point bloat to make certain enemies a challenge). There are games where a character has the same chance to miss a sleeping target as he does the end game boss.

In AD&D, helpless characters aren't only hit with 100%, they are instantly killed. Try Hold Person.

Yeah, I think anything that is done to reasonably mitigate "always having 5% to miss" is a good thing.
 
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Lord of Riva

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I am not sure how to interpret that.

As far as I can tell you are making my point, at a certain level of scope a system can not be interpreted by a human correctly hence it is not a puzzle.
Against AI it becomes equivalent to RNG because the amount of states are incredibly high even in more simpler games, in contrast to chess as that is less complex than even most simple games.

So at worst, deterministic system, at a high level are equivalent to RNG and if understood would be vastly superior, that is my point.
Now, unless you claim that we currently have not enough computing power to make adequate deterministic system in a very complex system, that may be true, I simply do not know if that is the case.

In that case however it would be, RNG is the better solution currently as we are not able to make adequate but superior deterministic systems, that would not make me change my vote.
 

DraQ

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Determinism is only "inferior" to RNG if the system used is not complex enough.
[Laughs in Go]

The point of RNG is not to be superior or inferior but to do two things:
  • add more simulationist angle without requiring unfeasibly deep simulation
  • fuzz successful plans so that they need to be robust
You should never let your strategy hinge on a roll. If you do, someone has done fucked up - you, the system designer or the content designer. But your strategy should accommodate for a roll messing it up.
The joke is of course that Go is an extremely simple game judged by its rules even though it has very complex gameplay.
 
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A bit off topic but there's also a valid argument that randomness is more interesting and perhaps fun. If you know exactly how an enemy will respond to your move(either because they'll pick the most optimal or perhaps suboptimal depending on the AI) it's not as interesting.
I like when game AIs do things that are both unexpected and smart. It's definitely something that sticks with me, anyways. I still remember an enemy in DOS2 using a water balloon and throwing it at my Fane because he was standing in a puddle of poison to keep himself healed and buff his earth spells. For those that haven't played DOS2, the water balloon washed away the poison surface and got rid of the bonuses my character was receiving.
Was it the most optimal move? Probably not. Was it an interesting move that a real person would probably do? Yeah.
 

Lord of Riva

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hrm. The deep System Argument holds water for sure, as it means a lot of effort may be put into something that in the end may not make a difference to the end user and that is most likely not worth time and money.

Any of the other things mentioned can be perfectly relatively easily made in a deterministic system though (in fact we do not have true random
 

DJOGamer PT

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RNG reduces the need for player's skill, and even outright lowers the game's skill ceiling
Anyone that says otherwise clearly never played a "party game" in his life or any game with truly heavy use of RNG
This is the reaon why game's that focus on the individual player's skill level, like competitive games, do everything they can to remove any randomness from the game

Computer RPG's migth benefit from some amount of "chaos" comparatively to other genres, but it should never be as significant as to undermine the player's ability
Therefore: Deterministic >>>>> RNG
 
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I think full RNG works better for games that have random generation at their core, such as roguelikes, or on tabletop where the DM can make changes on the fly if he feels the other players are not having much fun.

Now on most conventional CRPGs where most of the content is handcrafted I tend to find it just annoying, principally in the ones where you control only one character, I miss an attack and out of nowhere my enemy does a critical hit in his turn and kills me, stuff that I couldn't even react to. When I'm playing a videogame I generally want to be rewarded/punished for my own choices/skills and not some arbitrary invisible dice roll that is only there as a way to add a really cheap layer of complexity to the systems that supposedely simulates stuff that the game is obviouly not designed to take into account.

RNG can still have its uses outside of more flexible game types, but it works better when it is not easily noticed such as in enemy behaviour or some minor stat effects.
 
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hrm. The deep System Argument holds water for sure, as it means a lot of effort may be put into something that in the end may not make a difference to the end user and that is most likely not worth time and money.

Any of the other things mentioned can be perfectly relatively easily made in a deterministic system though (in fact we do not have true random
Outside of doing something insane that only a machine learning AI would figure out(which, to be fair -- happens a lot.) it would be difficult to introduce the same "interesting" factor without some sort of RNG bias.

On the machine learning part: I recall watching some machine learning AI for ...dota 2, maybe? Been a while. Anyways, it was at a tournament vs a real team as a 'joke' match and the two guys spectating it kept laughing at the AI doing "dumb" things... but the AI ended up winning. The spectators simply couldn't understand why the AI did what it did.
Playing against such an AI would indeed be very strange. Any tactics you've learned would probably be useless because it won't think like you or be designed by someone who thinks like you.
 
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RNG reduces the need for player's skill, and even outright lowers the game's skill ceiling
Anyone that says otherwise clearly never played a "party game" in his life or any game with truly heavy use of RNG
This is the reaon why game's that focus on the individual player's skill level, like competitive games, do everything they can to remove any randomness from the game

Computer RPG's migth benefit from some amount of "chaos", but it should never be as significant as to undermine the player's ability
Therefore: Deterministic >>>>> RNG
You're overlooking the skill required to properly plan for and overcome bad RNG.
Poker is insanely RNG, yet there are people who regularly win tournaments instead of random joes off the street. Why?
 

smaug

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RNG reduces the need for player's skill, and even outright lowers the game's skill ceiling
Anyone that says otherwise clearly never played a "party game" in his life or any game with truly heavy use of RNG
This is the reaon why game's that focus on the individual player's skill level, like competitive games, do everything they can to remove any randomness from the game

Computer RPG's migth benefit from some amount of "chaos" comparatively to other genres, but it should never be as significant as to undermine the player's ability
Therefore: Deterministic >>>>> RNG
RPG’s have never been about “skill”. They’re about player experience with the use multitudes of different mechanics. You can’t really “skillfully” play through the original Wizardry.
 

DJOGamer PT

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RPG’s have never been about “skill”.

RPG's are about alot of thing, I made no comments on that regard
I said any decent RPG, hell any decent game, shouldn't have such an intense RNG aspect to it that it significantly undermines the player's skill

They’re about player experience with the use multitudes of different mechanics.

Alot of the games that aren't RPG's are about that too
That doesn't imply that the RNG factor should such high influence regarding the player's success

You can’t really “skillfully” play through the original Wizardry.

You sorta, kinda can...
There are after all a good amount of speedruns to the game, which does imply that player skill and knowledge at least do heavily factor into the game

Besides the first 5 Wizardry's are really RPG's
They're simply Dungeon Crawlers
Wiz 6 to 8 are proper RPG's
 

lukaszek

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Playing against such an AI would indeed be very strange. Any tactics you've learned would probably be useless because it won't think like you or be designed by someone who thinks like you.
ai did introduce new chess plays

You're overlooking the skill required to properly plan for and overcome bad RNG.
Poker is insanely RNG, yet there are people who regularly win tournaments instead of random joes off the street. Why?
cos its not rng in dice sense. Once deck is sorted everything is set you just lack full knowledge
 
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RPG’s have never been about “skill”. They’re about player experience with the use multitudes of different mechanics.

This. Why do people worry about "skill" in video games, the only time "skill" matters is speedrunner tier knowledge that people make e-careers out of at which point video games become a job. "Skill" may apply to let's say harder games that require existing knowledge of games, but it's really a pretty paltry thing to call a skill. It's advanced consumption at best.
 

smaug

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RPG’s have never been about “skill”.

RPG's are about alot of thing, I made no comments on that regard
I said any decent RPG, hell any decent game, shouldn't have such an intense RNG aspect to it that it significantly undermine the player's skill

They’re about player experience with the use multitudes of different mechanics.

Alot of the games that aren't RPG's are about that too
That doesn't imply that the RNG factor should such high influence regarding the player's success

You can’t really “skillfully” play through the original Wizardry.

You sorta, kinda can...
There are after all a good amount of speedruns to the game, which does imply that player skill and knowledge at least do heavily factor into the game

Besides the first 5 Wizardry's are really RPG's
They're simply Dungeon Crawlers
Wiz 6 to 8 are proper RPG's
Wizardry 1 is absolutely an RPG, my point was it’s not a very skillful game. Keep in mind it’s meant to be played and what it requires is different to let’s say Mario. I guess the game is easier if you spoil yourself but on a blind play through it’s not skillful as rather it’s a slow grind and discovery.
 

smaug

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RPG’s have never been about “skill”. They’re about player experience with the use multitudes of different mechanics.

This. Why do people worry about "skill" in video games, the only time "skill" matters is speedrunner tier knowledge that people make e-careers out of at which point video games become a job. "Skill" may apply to let's say harder games that require existing knowledge of games, but it's really a pretty paltry thing to call a skill. It's advanced consumption at best.
This, and again when have rpgs ever been about testing a players skills? I mean, is there any skill in picking a character’s class/stats/abilities perfectly? I do agree in a certain sense rpgs require a different subset of skills, for example compared to let’s say an action game but they set out to do completely different things. This is apart of the reason RNG is essential component of most CRPGS.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Wizardry 1 is absolutely an RPG

I've already said this in other threads so here you go:

DJOGamer PT said:
IMO Wiz 1-5 (and similiar blobbers) are entirely different beasts to games like Wiz 6-8 and Grimoire, and as such they really can't be compared.
I don't know a better to way explain it than this:

>Wiz 1-5 are dungeon crawlers, this means that the dungeon is the sole focus and the true enemy of the game, every other aspect revolves around this design principle and their function is to enchance that enemy, and make the experience must be as tigth as possible;

>Wiz 6-8 are more classical RPG's (this becomes more apparent in 7), so the dungeon is no longer the star of the show and other aspects (some brand new, as they would amount to bloat in the dungeon crawler) share equal if not higher importance, aspects such as: the game world's design, the level of interactivity, exploration, c&c, quests, gameplay systems that allow for builds that aren't fully meant for combat or dealing with the dangers of the dungeon, etc...
 

smaug

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Wizardry 1 is absolutely an RPG

I've already said this in other threads so here you go:

DJOGamer PT said:
IMO Wiz 1-5 (and similiar blobbers) are entirely different beasts to games like Wiz 6-8 and Grimoire, and as such they really can't be compared.
I don't know a better to way explain it than this:

>Wiz 1-5 are dungeon crawlers, this means that the dungeon is the sole focus and the true enemy of the game, every other aspect revolves around this design principle and their function is to enchance that enemy, and make the experience must be as tigth as possible;

>Wiz 6-8 are more classical RPG's (this becomes more apparent in 7), so the dungeon is no longer the star of the show and other aspects (some brand new, as they would amount to bloat in the dungeon crawler) share equal if not higher importance, aspects such as: the game world's design, the level of interactivity, exploration, c&c, quests, gameplay systems that allow for builds that aren't fully meant for combat or dealing with the dangers of the dungeon, etc...
I could argue that but I’m not in the mood. I don’t think one is objectively better than the other (RNG or deterministic). They both have a certain intention for players and have their game designed around them. I know most average gaymers would prefer deterministic for example. Heavy deterministic games are the majority of gamers forte and that’s fine. CRPGS and such are a niche and I think RNG should be held as a unique staple.
 

lukaszek

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considering lack of deterministic rpgs, it wouldnt surprise me if most voting for rng havent played even one.

Also shameful anonymous poll
 

Norfleet

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I view this as kind of a meaningless argument. It's not about RNG vs. determinism, but on whether this produces an interesting game. Excessive levels of determinism in creates a predictable and simplistic game. Excessive levels of RNG creates a game in which player agency is limited. Ironically, the amount of RNG that is excessive is itself weird: Having whether you live or die determined by a single random number roll is a lot of RNG...having the same determined by an enormous number of random rolls is pretty much deterministic. In the end, it's not about whether an aspect of a game is deterministic or random, but whether the choice made works well within the wider context of the game.
 

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