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Nihilistic vs chivalric RPGs

DJOGamer PT

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Elder Scrolls ... are all highly nihilistic, generally viewing no one as truly good.

??

Oblivion and Skyrim are very "black & white"
That's even been one of the decline aspects long-time fans of the series been criticizing Bethsoft, for 2 decades now

And Morrowind isn't nihilistic either, the entire continent is drenched in tradition, and the conflict of the main quest revolves on the interpretations of a religious prophecy
Besides no one but God is "truly good", but just because someone or something isn't truly good doesn't make it nihilistic or evil (or that there is no good)
Fuck, not even the Elves in the LotR are truly good, with their fair share of petty conflicts and cruelties, but you wouldn't call the LotR nihilistic now would you?
Morrowind is simply trying to make Tamriel a grounded and believable place, and it does that by introducing flaws and contradictions like we find in or own world



but still often showed knights as either bullies or dunces

You're being unfair mate
Alot of them are also honrable and noble, and even amonsgt the dunces there are good men
KDC is great in regards to historical authenticity, it's like the videogame equivalent of Rome

These men were warriors, not sages or scholars
But fighting men struggling to mold themselves to a very complicated ideal (even moreso than the Samurai Bushido IMO)
Some could, others couldn't, and others were a work in progress...



The medieval romance has been a subject of mockery for centuries (re Cervantes) so it's almost impossible to find a depiction of knights and chivalry anymore that is anywhere close to idealized.

The majority of people by Cervantes time already had a retarded notion of what "Chivalry" meant for a long time
Cervantes wasn't mocking the ideal, he was poking fun at the highly popular genre of chivalric novels of the time (that by his own admission he loved), that had gotten very stale and clichéd and were also written by authors that ultimately didn't really get what a Knight was supposed to be
 
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Grampy_Bone

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Eh? Did you miss the endless debates of "Stormcloaks vs Empire"? Who are the black and white good guys there?

Morrowind is the typical "religion is a useful lie" modern heresy. The "gods" are just people who pushed magic or demonology further than other people, the prophecy is a Dune-esque manipulation. Comparing it to "the harmony of Eru Iluvatar" is nuts.

I do agree that KCD played the traditional knight tropes pretty fairly which is one of the reasons it stands out so much. Note that it was an independent project that major studios all rejected, only when it was attached to a sense of Czech nationalism did it get made.

KCD in fact was so good it reinvigorated my own love of chivalric storytelling and inspired my own novel.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Eh? Did you miss the endless debates of "Stormcloaks vs Empire"? Who are the black and white good guys there?

What "endless debates"?
This isn't New Vegas, where people are still to this day disscussing the merits of each faction
They're both the same, because their characterization lacks any nuance
All the supposed differences between them (which are very few might I add) are repeatedly told to us in the same couple lines of dialogues
But in-game, during the actual campaign, there's literally no difference between the two
In fact considering the main quest, this is more framed as "these idiots are fighting amongst themselves, when they should be fighting the dragons"


Morrowind is the typical "religion is a useful lie" modern heresy. The "gods" are just people who pushed magic or demonology further than other people, the prophecy is a Dune-esque manipulation. Comparing it to "the harmony of Eru Iluvatar" is nuts.

You should replay Morrowind, because you either missed alot of shit or just don't remember

For one, the Tribunal aren't the only religion of the setting, not even the sole religion of the Dunmer
And no the game doesn't try to hammer a point that "religion is a lie", that's your own reading
Morrowind presents everything from true believers to people that want to corrupt religious teachings
That is not nihilistic, that is realistic
People and instituitions using noble ideals/beliefs to their own gain is something that has happened since the dawn of time, and will still happen until the end of time
And again, trying to depict such unfortunate history doesn't make something nihilistic, specially when it also depicts the other side of that coin

As for the Tribunal, though they were once mortals, now are clearly something else beyond that (and they didn't become that through simple magic) - plus the chracterization of each member is very distinct
Almalexia might've become corrupted, but Vivec has transcended his original godhood and now teaches his new found enlighment

Finally, again the conflict surrounding the prophecy is entirely about it's legitimacy and meaning
That is your interpretation of the prophecy, but Morrwowind supports other readings
So much so that we can actually have "endless debates" about that topic
For example, doesn't it even matter if the prophecy might be a manipulation, if in the end someone plays it to perfection and through it his mind and spirit are molded into an equals of Nerevar?

Oh, and read my post more carefully next time. Because not once I mentioned or even implied Eru in my LotR comparasion
 
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Zed Duke of Banville

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Morrowind's religious revelation: God is real, and she's dunmer.

600px-MW-creature-Azura.jpg
 

Grampy_Bone

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What "endless debates"?

Here's one https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...he-drain-imperial-vs-stormcloak-spoila.66783/ found it in 2 seconds.

Wanna bet there's a bunch more in the skyrim thread?

That is not nihilistic, that is realistic

Recall the story of Job--man does not presume to judge God. The fact that the gods' existence can even be doubted at all, they sit and debate with you over their divinity, that belief is not *compulsive* and *punished* and that the prophecy has no divine force behind it one way or another all places it firmly into the revisionist camp. Which is fine for a videogame, but now we're in "Jesus is just a pagan myth" territory. Even inviting the debate is nihilistic.

read my post more carefully next time

No. Write clearly and don't throw out random comparisons.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Here's one https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...he-drain-imperial-vs-stormcloak-spoila.66783/ found it in 2 seconds.

Wanna bet there's a bunch more in the skyrim thread?

Seriously?
A couple of discussions after the game's lauch, and a few more over the years is what you consider "endless debates"?
That's a pretty fucking low bar if ask me :lol:

You pretty much ran out of words to describe the multitude of threads, that are still created to this day, discussing about New Vegas factions



Recall the story of Job--man does not presume to judge God. The fact that the gods' existence can even be doubted at all, they sit and debate with you over their divinity, that belief is not *compulsive* and *punished* and that the prophecy has no divine force behind it one way or another all places it firmly into the revisionist camp. Which is fine for a videogame, but now we're in "Jesus is just a pagan myth" territory. Even inviting the debate is nihilistic.

Ok for the one the Book of Job is about many themes and taughts many lessons, so be very careful when you decide to bring such texts to any discussion
Specially if you're going to boil it down to just one edict to support whatever argument you're trying to make

Secondly, it is through suffering doubt and questioning belief that faith grows and theology is written
Human beings have struggled with doubt since the dawn of time and will continue to do so until the end of time
That's just how Humans deal with spiritual matters, calling it "revisionist" is just plain idiotic
And when you accept belief in certain gods, by definition you reject belief in others

Thirdly, as well as the third time I'm repeating this
You believe that the Nerevarine prophecy is lie, but once again that is what YOU chose to believe in, there are others that oppose view and have equally solid reasons for it
This is no more nihilistic than an Hindu sage not believing in the divinity of Jesus, or a Christian sage not believing in the Buddhist notion of enlightenment
Because in case you haven't noticed, not every one shares the same belief and outlook on Divinity as you do, even within the same Faiths humans still believe in distinct interpretations and concepts
And you're labelling Morrowind as a nihilistic work just for trying to depict such a basic fact of life, which is ridiculous

Oh and that Jesus analogy, c'mon man that's just trying too hard...
Jesus was bringing deliverance to every person that has lived and will live, he was not "freeing" a specific ethnic group



No. Write clearly and don't throw out random comparisons.

Nah the comparasion is clear enough

You claimed that TES was nihilistic because no character was considered truly good
I responded that your claim was false and that just because something/someone isn't truly good doesn't imply said work/person is nihilistic or evil
To prove the latter point I used the Elves from LotR as an example: as despite being almost demigods, they are still shown not to be truly good; therefore by the same logic you applied to TES, this implies that LotR is a nihilistic work
But obviously to anyone that knows LotR, this is a claim only an ignorant or a fool would make; which means your line of thinking isn't very sound

And in this entire comparasion I never once even hinted at Eru, but that somehow was the only thing to took from my reply and even attempted to use it against my arguments
I assume this happened because in the line preceding this comparasion I mentioned God, but not only was that before the LotR example, but also I very clearly stated there, and I quote:
no one but God is "truly good"
Which honestly makes the way you tried to use Eru against my post even more nonsensical

So all in all, it's your reading comprehension that is falling here, not the structure of my posts
 
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Morrowind is the typical "religion is a useful lie" modern heresy. The "gods" are just people
Because 2/3 of them weren't gods, they were mortals. Vivec was indeed a god, but for a different reason(CHIM.)
The "true gods" are the Aedra, with the Daedra being lesser gods. The "eight divines" worshiped by the people of Tamriel are Aedra, the ninth divine(Tiber Septim/Talos) managed to achieve the same status as the Aedra via CHIM.
 

Hag

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The majority of people by Cervantes time already had a retarded notion of what "Chivalry" meant for a long time
Cervantes wasn't mocking the ideal, he was poking fun at the highly popular genre of chivalric novels of the time (that by his own admission he loved), that had gotten very stale and clichéd and were also written by authors that ultimately didn't really get what a Knight was supposed to be

If you read old chivalry songs you will find that early medieval chivalry was more about boasting about killing thousand of Muslims with sacred swords than anything barely romantic.
In "La Chanson de Roland" (XIth century), Roland, the most brave and virtuous knight, is basically a bloodthirsty Christian fanatical who leads his brave and virtuous men (ie all bloodthirsty Christian fanaticals) in an unwinnable battle just so that they can partake in slaughtering a whole army of infidels, knowing that they are going to die but will be remembered ever after as great heroes (which was a success indeed).
No fair lady, no honor besides "I'd rather die fighting than not", only praise for the Lord, fetishism for holy relics, boasting in parties about being the strongest, and being righteous as long as right means bringing God's empire to Earth by frenzy killing whoever may have a different opinion.

So in a way, pretty close to the murder-happy character you can play in most RPGs.
 

copebot

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There actually aren't that many nihilistic games, although some open ended games can certainly be played that way. There isn't a game version of a Houellebecq novel. Even GTA, famous for 'nihilistic' mayhem, tries to guide players down plot-driven morality tales because they believe it will create a more compelling gameplay experience for players.

I don't agree that fictional settings in which the gods are created by humans are all that nihilistic. They may want to be nihilistic, but they don't really accomplish what they are setting out to do. It's sort of like saying that the Greek gods aren't real because Zeus was the son of Kronos, and the titans are the real gods. When Anchises has sex with Venus, he begat the demigod Aeneas; he created him. That doesn't mean that Aeneas isn't at least semi-divine in origin. Mary gave birth to Jesus, who was the son of god, but that he came from her does not diminish his divinity. Even settings in which the equivalent of Atlanteans created gods in a lab are not all that different from many pagan religions in which the gods are just immortal aristocrats from the dawn of time.

When most people think of chivalric epics they're more likely thinking of something like Faerie Queene (slightly predating Don Quixote), which although it has Saracens has a more conventional epic narrative hitting all the appropriate notes but within a Christian sensibility. The line between FQ to Tolkien to the modern fantasy genre is much clearer than the line from Roland to Tolkien.

Whether or not people are bad is dependent on the cultural and religious frame, but also epic heroes are rarely all good. Part of the Homeric arc contains the condemnation and redemption of the hero. If you judge any character in TES within something like a contemporary Christian framework they aren't going to come out looking good. It's more of a consciously pagan Greco-Roman type of world with some medieval aesthetic influences. However our notion of what a Christian framework is in the 21st century would be very different from the highly syncretic Roman Christianity of the Middle Ages in which Christian priests still observed certain Roman practices like the taking of auspices along with many liturgical elements of the pre-Christian Roman religion. Also many Roman values found their way into Christianity in ways that took a lot of guff from the scholastics and then later even more guff from the Protestants.

Within the TES setting most of the gods are real and there aren't all that many false religions, with even heretics being able to alter the fabric of reality through magic. The gods determine legitimacy within their own divine aristocracy and war over their appropriate domains. Even the humans who achieve some measure of divinity like the Tribunal do so within that framework and their divinity is not just a pretense but something that has observable effects.
 

Reinhardt

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The majority of people by Cervantes time already had a retarded notion of what "Chivalry" meant for a long time
Cervantes wasn't mocking the ideal, he was poking fun at the highly popular genre of chivalric novels of the time (that by his own admission he loved), that had gotten very stale and clichéd and were also written by authors that ultimately didn't really get what a Knight was supposed to be

If you read old chivalry songs you will find that early medieval chivalry was more about boasting about killing thousand of Muslims with sacred swords than anything barely romantic.
In "La Chanson de Roland" (XIth century), Roland, the most brave and virtuous knight, is basically a bloodthirsty Christian fanatical who leads his brave and virtuous men (ie all bloodthirsty Christian fanaticals) in an unwinnable battle just so that they can partake in slaughtering a whole army of infidels, knowing that they are going to die but will be remembered ever after as great heroes (which was a success indeed).
No fair lady, no honor besides "I'd rather die fighting than not", only praise for the Lord, fetishism for holy relics, boasting in parties about being the strongest, and being righteous as long as right means bringing God's empire to Earth by frenzy killing whoever may have a different opinion.

So in a way, pretty close to the murder-happy character you can play in most RPGs.
Nah, Roland was samurai, not paladin. Basically his death was "i won't call for help until it's too late and my men are all dead because my king will laugh at me" In his last battle he's knight who fights for his lord, not for Lord.
 

Hag

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The majority of people by Cervantes time already had a retarded notion of what "Chivalry" meant for a long time
Cervantes wasn't mocking the ideal, he was poking fun at the highly popular genre of chivalric novels of the time (that by his own admission he loved), that had gotten very stale and clichéd and were also written by authors that ultimately didn't really get what a Knight was supposed to be

If you read old chivalry songs you will find that early medieval chivalry was more about boasting about killing thousand of Muslims with sacred swords than anything barely romantic.
In "La Chanson de Roland" (XIth century), Roland, the most brave and virtuous knight, is basically a bloodthirsty Christian fanatical who leads his brave and virtuous men (ie all bloodthirsty Christian fanaticals) in an unwinnable battle just so that they can partake in slaughtering a whole army of infidels, knowing that they are going to die but will be remembered ever after as great heroes (which was a success indeed).
No fair lady, no honor besides "I'd rather die fighting than not", only praise for the Lord, fetishism for holy relics, boasting in parties about being the strongest, and being righteous as long as right means bringing God's empire to Earth by frenzy killing whoever may have a different opinion.

So in a way, pretty close to the murder-happy character you can play in most RPGs.
Nah, Roland was samurai, not paladin. Basically his death was "i won't call for help until it's too late and my men are all dead because my king will laugh at me" In his last battle he's knight who fights for his lord, not for Lord.
Agreed, but that doesn't stop him from being a most devout Christian. I found he decided to die pretty lightly, since they had already saved Charlemagne's army, their initial goal. They could have called for help earlier, with the same results plus their lives saved, but decided to become heroes.
I thought the story was to tell that noble knights would never run from enemies. Since in the song the Frank army is basically running back to their land after an unfinished campaign (what could be seen as fleeing in some way), Roland sacrifice himself so the virtue and honor of the knights are saved.
 

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