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Incline Which are - for you - the only truly exceptional RPGs of the post-Renaissance era?

Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,150
Some shitty lists up in here.

Truly exceptional RPGs since 2015 or so:
Witcher 3
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
ELEX
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Breath of the Wild
Expeditions: Viking
Disco Elysium
Battle Brothers
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
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Oct 3, 2015
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how much of an RPG is Kenshi really is
Kenshi is far more of an RPG than the Codex's #1 CRPG of 2019. :M

The chief failings in regard to being an RPG are the RTwP combat system, the large number of characters that can be assembled under the player's control (though it isn't a requirement, characters can become more akin to units than proper PCs), and base-building being available from the start of a game (though, again, this is not required).

Great exploration, though.

6SgCeTd.jpg
 

Mark Richard

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
1,192
Kingdom Come: Deliverance - I stand by my contribution to the 2019 poll of RPG Codex's Best RPGs. Kingdom Come was the only modern game to make it into the upper echelons of that list, rubbing shoulders with Betrayal at Krondor, Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, and Fallout. Exalted company indeed. It's also the first European RPG to truly rival the American classics, and the way things are going I have to wonder if that's a sign of things to come. Nearly all the best RPGs in the last ten years came from Europe and Russia.
 

Kliwer

Savant
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Oct 19, 2018
Messages
216
I am not entirely sure when the "renaissance" ended. Does the Gothic series, for example, still belong to this age?

I will take 2002 as the end of the Renaissance (IWD2 - the last game of the Infinity engine). My favorite games after that date:


- Drakensang: Dark Eye and Drakensang: River of Time. To this day, for me, these games are closest to the character of the Baldur's Gate series. They offer a fun, team-based adventure in a classic fantasy world. River of Time is a better game, but Dark Eye also has strengths (more companions, nicer locations, longer adventure). Both games definitely outperform Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2). The character development system is one of the best I've seen in cRPGs.


- Might and Magic X: Legacy. I know many of you will disagree. However, it is a very good game for me. The creators did very well to modernize the classic blobber. They faced a very difficult task. If they sticked to the original formula too rigidly - the game would be outdated. If they changed too much, the fans would be outraged. In my opinion, the creators of this title have kept a balance between these extremes. The M&M formula is still here, but noticeably changed. It suits me.


- Dragon Age: Origins. I like this game very much. I believe it was innovative in many ways. Unfortunately, its assumptions have never been developed. I wrote more about this in this thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...n-years-old-today.130563/page-18#post-7131179

Dragon Age: Origins - a cRPG prophet


7 years ago I truly liked this game, but I haven't re-play it from those time. The thing is - this game, as every story-driven RPG, is not very good to re-play if you remember everything (in contrast to tactical-based RPGs like Baldur's Gate or ToEE). I could re-play BG or IWD every 1-2 years and have fun, but in case of DA:O I have firstly to forget most of content. Now is the time.


The game, as I noticed, is very popular among casuals, but in the same time is heavily criticized by hard-core cRPG players (like honorable people gathered on this Forum). This is stupid and unfounded. In fact this game should be prized mostly by real RPG fans, especially those who have PnP background. Sure - many things could be better executed. But still - the game offer many unique features which are not found elsewhere. We can agree that many of these properties should be standard. But unfortunately they are not, which makes DA:O unrivaled in many fields.


I will not write about most obvious features and faults like combat system (which is too "MMOish" but functional), too few enemy types (which is hard to forgive in a fantasy setting), too linear and trash combat-heavy dungeons (almost all longer cRPGs have this - I'm looking at You my beloved Arcanum), imbalanced character system (which means nothing if you are not a retarded munchkin). I will limit myself to describe only three features which make this game (for me) a masterpiece on par with BG, Planescape Torment and best M&M games.


1. The story and world-building.

To be honest DA:O is my favorite game from this point of view. This is classical fantasy setting with all recognizable post-Tolkien plots and themes: underground dwarven kingdom, powerful wizards, invasion of dark hordes etc. In the same time everything is a bit deeper than in a typical fantasy setting. We have more explanations and more details about lore. Ferelden itself has enough political, historical and cultural details to call it: "typical fantasy kingdom, but better, more unique and realistic". I like that this "uniqueness" has been achieved not by intrusion of super-duper magical events (like in D&D) or building something totally alien and bizarre (as in Morrowind). It's much more subtle. I enjoy reading about a role of war hounds in this society, about former occupation of this country by Orlais (what resonates in the statements of NPCs), about its monarchic-republican system. As a great lover of dwarves I admire how Orzammar is presented. Everything about dwarven kingdom is consistent with fantasy canon, but in the same time it's more then: "dwarves live underground, work in mines and like beer" (as in D&D or, for example, Divine Divinity and similar worlds). The caste system (and its consequences for dwarves without clan), the election of the monarch, unique customs and institutions (such as "noble hunters", religious approach to ancestors, worshiping "the Stone") perfectly harmonize with the typical image of "sons of Durin", while adding many unique and interesting features.

I also admire that this is a world full of mysteries. Some of them (like a riddle of golems) will be explained during our adventures. But others not ("Is the Maker real?", "What is the nature of Fade?", "Were elves really once immortal?"). Nowadays too many fantasy worlds tried to explain everything. The worst examples of such approach are D&D (Tempus is 30 level fighter/20 level cleric with god power of 5th level... and other such bullshit) or Pillars of Eternity (where we learn all rules governing the universe, gods, life and death in one game). In DA:O universe there is a place for different philosophies, for different religions etc. There is a place for mystery, which is a core of fantasy. It's great to compare some codex entries written by different people and from different perspectives (religious approach of Chantry scholars, pseudo-scientific explanations of wizards, myths of wood elves, fairytales of human commoners etc.).

Really: show me one game with an equally well-described and extensive CLASSICAL fantasy world. I find none. If someone prefers unique and original worlds, he will prefer Morrowind, Dark Sun or Planescape. But if we want to fight a dragon, drink a pint of beer with a dwarf, tease a fanatical paladin (means: "Templar"), fight a battle on behalf of a good king etc. - there is no better world than DA:O.


2. Diverse gameplay

Almost every long cRPG has one major problem - monotony. In such games, we often do exactly the same things from start to finish. Even in my favorite BG2, the gameplay practically does not change its nature: we start somewhere in a city (dialogues, shopping, quests-gathering), then we go to the "dungeon" where we clean room by room, battle after battle, collect loot, return to town and repeat all over again. The formula is the same all the time. It is even worse in games such as M&M6, where only the numbers grow from level to level. I believe that cRPG games should be long (because only then we can really enjoy, for example, character development), but at the same time the nature of the game should change, new elements and themes should be introduced. DA:O tries to do it, although not perfectly.

DA:O offers really diverse tasks (although the density of interesting themes could be greater). Let's list a few:

- Mages tower and wandering in Fade. I really like this stage (although I understand that it can be boring during 3-4 re-play). It is an exceptionally atmospheric adventure, where we wander around the world of demons, having the city of God himself on the edge of our gaze. This is one of those stages that is exceptionally good if we get into the mood and activate our imagination. It must be added that the entire mechanics of the journey in the Fade (with shape-changing and a separate map, etc.) deserves recognition. It is like a cool puzzle-level (the challenge is mainly to manipulate our forms to overcome the toughest fights). This stage would of course be better if we had more logic puzzles to solve - but it's still quite a unique adventure.

- Organizing the defense of Radcliffe. Classic of PnP RPGs - we have to defend a village by organizing its inhabitants and inventing tactical stratagems. It was done quite well. And the additional plus is that we can ignore this whole quest.

- The quest for the holy urn. A great fight with a dragon, plus "trials" in the style of Indiana Jones.

- At a later stage, a fantastically realized escape from prison (again: PnP classic).

- The Landsmeet. This is one of those great diplomatic tasks that appear in cRPGs from time to time (legation to Caladon in Arcanum, trial in NWN2, debate in the palace of the prince in Pillars of Eternity). DA:O probably did this kind of task in a best way. Although, of course, you could dream of a more reactive gameplay, here the consequences of our decisions are relatively numerous and relatively important.

- An entire final battle with its own unique ally-summoning mechanics. I like how it was conceived. We have a sense of being in command in a truly epic battle. Personally, I do not know a cRPG that would better show the player's participation in a great battle (e.g. attempts to achieve something like that in Gothic 3 or Skyrim were quite pathetic). This stage has sadly much too low difficulty level. The game should assume, that it should be very difficult to achieve victory. For example a "bad ending" should be implemented, where the battle is lost and “everyone dies” (of course it would cause a terrible pain in casual’s ass).

All of the above makes the game interesting for me from start to finish. Honestly, even those long dungeons with repeatable opponents do not bother me too much, because I have a feeling that something unique can pop up at every turn. Even such Deep Roads have their charm for me - because it's like a reminiscence of the Fellowship's journey through Moria…

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep
In hollow halls beneath the fells.


3. A unique main character.

DA:O is one of the few PC games that respect the basic principles that are the heart of PnP RPGs: our need to create a unique character and tell our own story. What is it like to play an RPG with a good game master? You start from thinking about your character. You describe his biography and physical and psychological characteristics on 4-5 A4 pages, then you try to fit him into the mechanics of the system, negotiating with the game master some bends of ruleset ("my noble warrior should have diplomacy as a class skill!"). Then the game master fits our character into the campaign, prepares personal events, side quests and biographical references, introduces your family members, friends and enemies to the main storyline. Even little things can dramatically increase the fun of the game in such campaign. Generic hunt for bandits take on color when the local constable is our cousin, the chief of the gang is our personal sworn enemy, and the robbed noblewoman is our annoying old aunt.

DA:O tries to recreate this formula. First: we can choose one from 5 starting “origins”. This “origins” in general cover most of fantasy archetypes you could imagine (a declassed nobleman, a revenge-hungry commoner, a wizard raised in a tower...). Obviously we could dream about more options (I personally feel the lack of some second origin for the wizard - e.g. an apostate apprentice or a Dalish magician - and the lack of a typical barbarian, e.g. Chasind), but those 5 starting biographies are still impressive. During the prologue stories we not only gain knowledge about the culture and family of our hero, but also we can define our attitude towards them (a dwarven nobleman can be a power-hungry bastard and kin-slayer, as well as a honest naive who is maneuvered into political intrigue). We'll eventually become a Gray Warden at the end of the day, but our biography plays a vital role throughout the game. It is noticed in dialogues by NPCs and gives us additional dialogue options (even if mostly only cosmetic ones). While playing DA:O, I have the impression that almost always one of the dialogue options fits my character. This is the opposite of Pillars of Eternity, where sometimes all the lines offered to me were utterly shitty. In many cRPGs, our character creation is really limited to the mechanical aspects (whether we will defeat enemies with fireballs, swords or by backstabbing). In terms of plot, we are crammed into the frame of some imposed personality ("Bhaal's child", "Watcher" etc.). DA:O tries to counter this anti-RPG logic, at least partially.

The efforts of the creators to root our character in the game world deserve recognition. In most cRPGs our character is outlander, without any local relations (again: as in Pillars of Eternity). Even in better games which recognize some features of our character in dialogs (like Arcanum) our character is just a set of tags (dialogue option for "good character", for "thief", for "elf" etc.). We are unable to tell our own consistent story, there is no location in the game world that we can call home. In the worst cases, the plot of the game does not suit our character at all. I remember my disgust in NWN2 when it turned out that my rigorous gold-dwarf, a proud cleric of Moradin was raised by a hideous forest elf in some shitty human village. What a disgrace!

DA:O achieves much better results in this field. There is one big main story quest associated with each "origin". Even if changes in the structure of these quests are small, additional dialogues and our emotional involvement in resolving a given conflict completely change the reception. My dwarven noble hero is just approaching Orzammar. I have a big dilemma which candidate to the crown is worth my support. Should I get my personal revenge on my traitorous brother? Or should I forgive him in the name of clan solidarity (It would be terrible if the Aeducans lost crown and throne)? The best part is that the game supports both approaches in dialogues. From previous playthroughs I remember that my Dalish elf had tons of unique dialogues and that my human noble rogue finished as a king of Ferelden.

===================


Conclusion

Dragon Age: Origins has invented a new formula for cRPG. A formula that truly recreates the PnP experience. Of course, many things could (and should) be improved. In future games one would expect more “origins” and their greater impact on the main storyline. There should be more situations where our calling as the Gray Warden clash with our personal problems (e.g. would a player decide to give up one of the allied armies in exchange for the life of beloved father/sister/etc.?). There should be paths to "lose" the game - eg by screwing up one or two of the main quests (in current state of the game it is impossible to not defeat the Blight).

DA:O’s formula should have become the basis for the further development of story-based cRPG games. The recipe seems easy to follow: a relatively simple but reactive storyline, with lots of choices and different endings. Dialogues and quests written with different main characters in mind. The main character deeply rooted in the game world and plot. What's not to love? However, this did not happen. The Dragon Age series itself betrayed its own assumptions, giving birth to more modern, primitive pseudo-RPGs. No other studio has attempted to imitate and develop DA:O formula. It's a pity, it is a missed opportunity to take cRPGs to a new level.

DA:O is not a perfect games. But it shows how the perfect game could be. It’s a brilliant prototype, but sadly only a prototype. This is an unheard cRPG prophet who showed the right way. A way that nobody took. Instead of games which try to recreate PnP experience, which try to develop RP aspects, we are still receiving pseudo-movies in style of Witcher 3 or hiking simulators like Skyrim.

- Witcher 1. I liked the first part quite a bit. Only this game from this series I would call a cRPG. The other two are some kind of interactive cinema. The atmosphere of the world is special and unrepeatable, and the RPG mechanics are still quite ok.


- Divinity II: Ego Draconis. Next to Gothic, my favorite aRPG. The power-metal atmosphere suits me very well. I appreciate the novel and epic possibilities: mind reading, dragon transformation (even as the latter gets a bit boring over time). Some of the dungeon designs are just brilliant; some of the best in this sub-genre of games. I believe that various puzzles with levers and platforming elements should be standard in aRPGs.


And ... well. That's it. I think all the other RPGs made after 2002 are for me ... average at best. Mostly completely shitty.
 

Darth Canoli

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Jun 8, 2018
Messages
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Location
Perched on a tree
Exceptional
- Knights of the Chalice

Very Good
- ATOM
- KotC 2: Augury of Chaos (this module is more of a tactical RPG)
- Warbanners (tactical "RPG")

Good
- Dungeon Rats
- Grimoire
- Wasteland 2
- Fallout Resurrection
- Frayed Knights
- KotC 2: Hearkenwold

Honorary mentions
- Age of Decadence
- Expeditions: Vikings
- Legends of Amberland
- The Quest
- 7 Mages
- Dead State
- Drakensang: River of Time
- DOS
- DAO
- Legacy
- Shadowrun Hong Kong
- The Banner Saga
 
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deama

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May 13, 2013
Messages
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Disco elysium
Kingdom cumdorance
Underrail
Age of decadence
Divinity original sin 2
Pathfinder kingmaker
 

polo

Magister
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Jul 8, 2014
Messages
1,737
I did not know KC: D and Atom were so highly regarded. I guess ill try them.

For me:
Underrail is a flawed gem
Dragons Dogma: DA was fun as hell but felt more action-y than RPG
Pathfinder: Kingmaker up until chapter 4 i felt like i was a young kid playing BG2 SoA all over again.
Edit-> Kenshi, i loved every minute i played that fucker, and im expecting an amazing sequel.

I still need to play Disco Elysium, and i have high hopes for colony ship.
 
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Lady Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
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Strap Yourselves In
Grimoire
Underrail
Shadowrun Dragonfall
Divinity Original Sin
Might & Magic X
Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire

At least those are the ones I finished and enjoyed every second of it.
 

V_K

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at a Nowhere near you
In order of increasing obscurity:
Legend of Grimrock 1&2
West of Loathing
Heroine's Quest
Unexplored
Voidspire Tactics
Dask Disciples 1&2 (if we consider 2004 post-renaissance, otherwise just DD2).
 

Terenty

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Nov 29, 2018
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The only two rpgs that actually felt like real games and not something made by one person in a basement were Disco Elysium and Elex.

Both of them are great, but I would put Disco above, because it really has that classic feeling, like something that could've come out during those good ol days.
 

Stavrophore

Most trustworthy slavic man
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Strap Yourselves In
Since fallout there was not many RPGs set in a well crafted, novel and mysterious setting. Most are copy paste of D&D or typical fantasy tropes[PoE and PK], which isnt bad in itself, but for myself i like mysterious worlds in my rpgs or either good combat. RTWP are also not my cup of tea. Nevertheless:

-Tyranny just for the concept of playing a judge/evil character
-Skyrim for best open world of its time. Very good LARP simulator especially since there are lot of mods.
-Underrail for its combat and mystery plot and setting. The ending is railroaded so it kinda loses the RPG appeal.
-AoD like above for mystery setting, there's not much gameplay there, but you can definitely roleplay some. Different endings.
 

V_K

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Imagine listing Grimrock and some obscure shooter-RPG but not Disco because the former ones about combat and not about your filthy gay-ass story CYOA VN nonsense, amirite? Basically, another Disco-enjoyers bite thread even if trend died out some time ago.
Imagine being butthurt not even because someone hates your favorite game, but just because someone doesn't consider it to be the best ever.
 

Darth Canoli

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Perched on a tree
Dark Age (before 1993)
Renaissance era (1993-2002)
Age of Decline (2002-2012)
KS and post-KS era (2012-2020)

Fixed again.

In spite of what common knowledge suggests, Dark Ages weren't that bad, thousands of castles and cathedral were built, megatons of stones moved, i don't have the real numbers at hand but Egyptians and theirs pyramids were put to shame.
So, Goldbox games were these cathedrals while text based RPG were the pyramids.
 

jackofshadows

Magister
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Oct 21, 2019
Messages
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Imagine listing Grimrock and some obscure shooter-RPG but not Disco because the former ones about combat and not about your filthy gay-ass story CYOA VN nonsense, amirite? Basically, another Disco-enjoyers bite thread even if trend died out some time ago.
Imagine being butthurt not even because someone hates your favorite game, but just because someone doesn't consider it to be the best ever.
That's some way to twist my words: I was pissed because a) Listing Grimrock which RPG-identity is debatable, same as for DE b) mention obscure shooter-RPG while not mention DE

It's ok not to like Disco Elysium, but not to acknowledge its existence that's another matter.
 

undecaf

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Messages
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
I don’t think there’s been anything actually exceptional. There’s been a number of games that’ve been ”fun” for differing reasons, but I don’t feel any exceptional standouts or possible ”new classics” have emerged.
 

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