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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Stavrophore

Most trustworthy slavic man
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Strap Yourselves In
Desiderius the game isnt some fucking saint. I can have any attitude toward game -only immature people would be butthurt or take it personally, that someone bash some games, or like them or whatever shit. I wasn't impolite to users, only to the game laughing at its randomness. Then NJClaw pointed about DC, and i asked further. There was no hosility toward you or anyone.
 

Pink Eye

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
he had something like 2,500 hours in it and that was ages ago
Oh yeah. That's Kingmaker! Back when I was doing solo monk videos and getting information for my monk guide.
ZufzERe.png

Anyways. I don't know how many hours I've got in Knights of the Chalice 2 - there's no game tracker for your total time. Only for current run. So like if you save a game it shows how many hours you've got. However. Since I usually uninstall the entire game plus delete all save files for new build. I don't pay attention to the time I've spent in every run I do. I've only completed Augury of Chaos twice though. Lots of failed runs in between - it's a hard module.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
What a special kind of retard. It's right what they say. You really can lead a monkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
This discussion is hopelessly cursed and I think that, for the sake of the entire world, anyone who took part in it should be permanently banned from the codex.

Infinitron can you please ban every single user that posted in the last 9 pages? Make it 10 just to be sure.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I don't have 5,000 hours or anything close. I've only gotten to House twice and only have three decent playthroughs that even got to Coronation. I spent about a year testing different classes for people mostly on request and dicking around with mods and whatnot.

But even if I did people have hobbies. Nobody gets butthurt if somebody who's been working wood their whole life puts a newb who's feeling he's oats and gotten off on the wrong track back in his place, unless it's the newb who has his own issues.

Do you have youtube channel with builds?

No, but he has a dedicated thread on GOG. Here you go! Click me!

InEffective is a decent place to start though Roahin is probably a little bit better.

Important thing is to believe in your own ability to improve on what he's doing based on your own experience.
 
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Mortmal

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Well there's another option, its asking on owlcat official forums, there's another desiderius there who could answer you but strangely all neutered, he will answer you in a polite tone if a bit high pitched, as if some big russian moderator was holding him by the balls and not letting go.

I wasn't on there for a year. I recently rejoined because I've been happy with the direction the game is taking but if you think I'm neutered you should probably tell the people there. I doubt I'll last another day before I get booted again.

It truly is a wonder the fantasy world you've constructed for yourself Mortmal. Why not put that effort into sucking less at the game then we could all be happy together?

Sucking less ? i Have no problem with the game and i am not especially proud of it, unfair is not a badge of honor even people on reddit gets it.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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A lot of people out there not used to people caring enough to call out their bullshit.

It's an adjustment.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Sucking less ? i Have no problem with the game and i am not especially proud of it, unfair is not a badge of honor even people on reddit gets it.

Then give better advice for fuck's sake. People are depending on you.
 

Mortmal

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What nonsense is Mortmal spouting now? I don't give any advice on Lich beacuse I've never played it. Everyone knows I don't play Evil MCs.

Lies on top of lies.

His limitation is that he bought the same release day memes that I did but didn't bother testing them to see if they made sense so he's still stuck there which whatever if he weren't giving advice based on it and trying to dunk on people with more experience.
Not everyone is stalking the thread 24/24 , if its a release meme i had no way to know it .
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
This discussion is hopelessly cursed and I think that, for the sake of the entire world, anyone who took part in it should be permanently banned from the codex.

Infinitron can you please ban every single user that posted in the last 9 pages? Make it 10 just to be sure.

This is actually the reason I love this place. A proper blend of information, shitposting, and ad hominems that would get you banned/timed out anywhere else.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Nobody’s bragging.

People making claims and others are correcting them, with evidence as necessary. @Haplo’s screenshots are what opened up my understanding of the game so I do likewise. Once the butthurt wears off most people end up having a similar epiphany.

And then there are the pathetic ankle-biters and their mysterious issues that are unfathomable to me. Being autistic and all.
 

Saravan

Savant
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Jul 11, 2019
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But seriously Desiderius who are all these midgets biting each others ankles? I assume you have screenshots that might illuminate.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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No the formula wasn't explained. There was nothing telling that it uses charisma modifier[instead of actual charisma stat] that is right next to stat, and that it is calculated by adding the modified value as Sharpedge explained with round_down(raw stat -10)/2 formula to the base DC which is 10. So in my case it was 10+5[which was devised from 21-10/2 rounded down].
Why can't you admit this isn't explained ingame by a proper FINAL formula? What's with the aversion to math formulas in games generally?

It was repeatedly. The entry in the encyclopedia I went back and circled after you lied about it says bonus, not stat. The bonus is right next to the stat.

You could come here and ask where the bonus is and how it works. Instead you came in with hurr durr game suxxors. The bad attitude is what's blocking you. Not the game. Not us.
X8uW6Tk.jpg

Why does it say I posted that?

My bad. Will delete.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
DC’s:

One side starts at ten because the other side gets a d20 roll and the expected value of a d20 roll is, er, 10.5 which turns out to be close enough.

Each side then adds their bonuses from there. The DC is the side that starts with the ten for opposed spells and abilities. When you cast a spell that’s you.

There are a few abilities like Parry in which both sides get a roll but in those cases neither side gets the ten to begin.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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DC’s:

One side starts at ten because the other side gets a d20 roll and the expected value of a d20 roll is, er, 10.5 which turns out to be close enough.

Each side then adds their bonuses from there. The DC is the side that starts with the ten for opposed spells and abilities. When you cast a spell that’s you.

There are a few abilities like Parry in which both sides get a roll but in those cases neither side gets the ten to begin.

This is actually kind of impressive in that it's accurate, but hard to follow even for someone who knows how the rule works.


DC is the difficulty check for a save or skill. It's the number that has to be met in order to succeed. In most cases, a DC will start at 10 and then be modified accordingly. So in the case of a spell you're casting, a DC is 10 + the level of the spell + the casting ability modifier + any other modifiers for feats, gear, etc.

So for instance, if you're a wizard with 16 intelligence and spell focus (illusion) casting colour spray the DC would be 10 (base) + 1 (1st level spell) + 3 (16 int) + 2 (spell focus) = 16. This means that the enemy you're targeting has to roll 16 or better on the saving throw in order to successfully save against the spell.

The saving throw against colour spray is Will. So if the will saving throw modifier is +3 (say, +1 for the base class saving throw and +2 for a 14 wisdom), the enemy needs to roll 13 or higher in order to save (13 + 3 = 16).

Since a Will save negates colour spray, if the enemy rolls 13 or better, they will not be affected by colour spray in any way. This gives the colour spray a 60% chance ((13-1)/20) of hitting the enemy with its disabling effects. Naturally, this means that if the enemy had a high will save, such as +9, we wouldn't want to use colour spray since our DC of 16 means the enemy would save on a 7 or better (9 + 7 = 16) which means it has a 30% chance of success. We'd be better off targeting a different saving throw that's lower (can be seen using the inspect creature interface) or maybe not targeting saves at all, depending on the circumstance.

Skill checks work similarly to the saving throw situation described above, except normally the skill check DC is static and set according to the difficulty of the action. So say, climbing a tree might have a DC of 15 and we'd check athletics against it. This skill check will be modified by skill, the attribute (strength for athletics), and the armour check penalty. This could be modified by other elements such as gear, buffs, and so on.

Finally, as Desiderius mentioned, there can be times where a skill check is contested, which means that two creatures are trying to do something and both roll a d20 + modifiers and the one that has the higher number wins. This doesn't come up nearly as often but as long as you get the gist of what's going on, you should be ok. Generally speaking: higher modifiers for you = good, higher modifiers for the enemy = bad and the one that you most have to pay attention to is the spell DC stuff described at first. Otherwise, you can just know that higher = better.

tl;dr There are a lot of rules since these games have a lot of tabletop history and most of it was adapted into the game. It's difficult for the developer to actually explain everything for someone who doesn't have some passing knowledge of the rules history, but the game is quite good if you can get past the learning curve, and some of the nuances are more overwhelming than complicated.

Unfortunately, 3rd edition D&D which Pathfinder is based is the most rules heavy edition of D&D and Pathfinder 1st edition made it somewhat more complex, added a TON of classes, and also made some subtle changes so that if you think of it only as 3E D&D, you're going to make some weird mistakes. I find the number of classes in the Pathfinder games to be a little overwhelming and my first contact with D&D rules started with the basic red box set, then 1st and 2nd edition AD&D somewhere around 35 years ago or so.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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It was really only one (and of course the usual ankle-biter morons). I was probably too hard on the Stavrophore kid.

I don't think my concise explanation is hard to follow at all. Took me a long time to figure out what the 10 was for and longer than that to figure out a way to remember who gets it and when.
 
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LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
We need to think more strategically about how we fix that. P:K is a throwback to the kinds of games we grew up on even if it is comically easier it's only easier if you approach it in the way that we grew up expecting, not the way they did.
Are there other games that also do this that we can encourage facerollers to try?
I think you're wrong with your American way of thinking that education, persuasion and showing new possibilities is enough to save something. If it cannot be done through direct genocide (yet), then I am for market segmentation and greater cultural barriers.

Play and buy Japanese games, Russian games, Eastern European games. Games with quirks that are hard to understand by the Western audience. Even Owlcat Games who are thoroughly oriented to western market managed to make Kingmaker; there is ATOM RPG which is hard to understand for someone who does not know Russia of the 90s; there is the Metro series which is made, unfortunately, by Ukrainians, but have enough vatnik humor anyway. And, if everything fails, those who buy games on GOG and back them up regularly can always play games from the past.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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You confuse the brain fungus of the GAE with the underlying American Way that was fast friends with Пётр Вели́кий.

We're still here and we know how to train young men with carrot and stick.
 

LannTheStupid

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You confuse the brain fungus of the GAE with the underlying American Way that was fast friends with Пётр Вели́кий.
Yeah, and then Николай Первый had to spend all of his reign putting off fires in Europe that were lit by American and then French revolutions. Abominations are to be killed in infancy, not allowed to fester.


Anyway, those last 10 pages gave me a good laugh. I appreciate the effort of all the participants.

There is another matter, though. When monkeys are asking for "modern interface" that "explains formulae" and that the information is "buried in the game" they are more dangerous than they seem.

The problem is - everything costs resources. Writing something as a static text for an adult and then putting it on a static page is the cheapest way. Writing a static text that a mentally challenged child would understand is more expensive and requires a special education teacher. Creating a hyperlink with a tooltip which is dynamically changed according to the input values and shows the calculation formula is the most expensive (I guess). Owlcat Games decided not to spend resources on that, and instead, say, created Nok-Nok, or Jaethal quest line, or developed a happy threesome. Or something.

On the other hand, we have Larian. Their target audience are monkeys, so they overhauled the dice roll animation again. Completely. Now it looks like a spell from Harry Potter, but with numbers. No dreadful arithmetic is in sight. They know that the idea of calculus is foreign to their target audience, so they have to spend the budget to hide it. Meanwhile, the camping still looks like teleporting from the game world to some remote safe location as if the party has Elminster hidden somewhere.

The problem with Owlcat Games is they have to chose between "modern UI" and the rest of the game. The problem with Larian is that they can hire 10 more developers, but then they will have to harvest another million of monkeys. I very much prefer the former, and monkeys be damned. However, it is not a given that Owlcat will be able to do it indefinitely. And that is the danger.
 
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