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Elminage ORIGINAL - Priestess of Darkness and The Ring of the Gods

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
19-24 seems awfully low.
Save scumming for level ups is not necessary. But it can make the life easier. Up to you, I'd say.

Gothic is a fair bit harder then in Original. Both in map layouts and enemy capabilities.
More interesting too - due to enemies actually having varied strenghts and weaknesses.
 

Klatrymadon

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Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
11
I've just reinstalled this on my PSP, but there doesn't seem to be any way to update it to version 1.01 (the improved English translation), since the shop no longer exists and the 'Update' feature just says the game is up to date. Is there another way to get this patch onto my memory stick? (This PSP isn't currently hacked, alas...)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2021
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10
Is there a less tedious way to identify items with a Bishop that I'm missing? I can't seem to identify items in other characters' inventories, so I have to manually give every unidentified item to my Bishop (until his inventory is full), then switch to him and ID the items, then repeat until I've ID'ed everything. It feels like it takes 10x longer than it needs to.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I think there was some option in the tavern?

Of course you need to get there first.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2021
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Nevermind, I'm dumb, in the camp menu while you're in a dungeon there's literally an "Identification" button which will let you go through your entire party's list of un-ID'ed items and ID them, and you're right, there's also that button in the Inn, so you can do it in town too. I was going through the character status screen while in the shop, that also has an ID button, but only lets you ID items in the character's inventory.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2021
Messages
10
Hmm, this game is absolutely crushing me. I wanted to try it after trying Elminage Gothic (only beat the first dungeon in that game) because people seemed to recommend it first, saying it was a bit easier and more approachable, but it's still giving me a rough time. I'm going broke from resurrecting my people, who keep dying very quickly into my voyages. I've completed the first quest / first floor of the first dungeon to get the ring, so now I have access to the second floor, as well as the other dungeons. My party was originally Samurai, Brawler, Valkyrie, Bard, Bishop, Alchemist, but I noticed my Bard was struggling with traps, and I was hurting for Cleric spells like cure poison, so I swapped my party to Brawler, Valkyrie, Cleric, Thief, Bishop, Alchemist - but now my party's damage output is really bad. I've tried going in both the second floor of the first dungeon, as well as the first new dungeon I have available, which has a similar 1 rating for monster difficulty. I'm having more success in the other dungeon, but it seems like at any time my party members can get one-shot by mages. Do I need to switch up my party? Or maybe grind? Or is this sort of par for the course for the game?
 

Ysaye

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May 27, 2018
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Hmm, this game is absolutely crushing me. I wanted to try it after trying Elminage Gothic (only beat the first dungeon in that game) because people seemed to recommend it first, saying it was a bit easier and more approachable, but it's still giving me a rough time. I'm going broke from resurrecting my people, who keep dying very quickly into my voyages. I've completed the first quest / first floor of the first dungeon to get the ring, so now I have access to the second floor, as well as the other dungeons. My party was originally Samurai, Brawler, Valkyrie, Bard, Bishop, Alchemist, but I noticed my Bard was struggling with traps, and I was hurting for Cleric spells like cure poison, so I swapped my party to Brawler, Valkyrie, Cleric, Thief, Bishop, Alchemist - but now my party's damage output is really bad. I've tried going in both the second floor of the first dungeon, as well as the first new dungeon I have available, which has a similar 1 rating for monster difficulty. I'm having more success in the other dungeon, but it seems like at any time my party members can get one-shot by mages. Do I need to switch up my party? Or maybe grind? Or is this sort of par for the course for the game?

I think because you have gone with a number of more "advanced" characters straight up (Valkyrie, Bishop and originally the Samurai and Bard) you may have to grind a little in the first dungeon for a while if you want a functioning party. That party composition (S, B, V, Bd, Bi, A) should function well at later levels with the spells and gear to support it but it will take a while.

If you want to move a bit faster, primary classes would help you out a lot more. I would personally switch out the Bishop for now (or alternate between them and maybe the Thief on journeys) and run with a Mage until your front row is able to consistently do damage and survive a while; a Mage will be able to solve problems early on by dealing consistent damage, one shot the mages (or any other nasties) before they can one shot you and the like (of course they become more redundant later on and you will probably desire your Bishop back). I personally would never recommend starting with a Bishop apart from creating one just for the free IDing; it is almost always better to switch a mage or a cleric into one (or even level a mage to get ninth level spells, then convert to a cleric to get all the cleric spells, then to a Bishop or my personal favorite - a Lord).

What is your plan for the Cleric long term? I typically do take an early Cleric that I use initially the front line and then convert to something like an Alchemist (and convert the Alchemist to something fun, like a Hunter, Kannagi, Thief or Lord (if the alignment suits), or a Mage or even a summoner) I suppose another option could be to convert the cleric to a Samurai later, although you would probably want to have that Bishop ready at that point, or alternatively a Lord with some backup from a Valkyrie.
 
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See, I thought I read that Alchemist, Bishop, and a trap disarmer, were essentially mandatory, so I was kind of trying to build my party around those. Without a Bishop you'd have to pay the very expensive prices to ID items in town, right?

I also don't really have a 'plan' for any of the characters, as I'm still not really fully understanding of how the class switching is beneficial, having never played I guess a 'wizardry-like' (from what I've read they're called) before. Like switching from Cleric, to Alchemist, to Thief, what is the main benefit? You end up with a Thief that has a few levels of Cleric and Alchemist spells? Do you have to keep replaying the early dungeons in order to do that, because the characters get reset to level 1 for every class change, right?
 

newtmonkey

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You are generally better off starting as the basic classes (Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Mage) as they level quicker than the advanced classes and are often better early on at what they do best (opening chest, casting spells). You could then switch to more advanced classes later on. For someone familiar with classic Wizardry mechanics this is sort of common knowledge, so I see how it could seem confusing if you haven't played much of those.

If am remembering correctly, switching a class will revert you to level 1 and the minimum stats required for the new class, but you retain your HP and any spells you already obtained (only applies for certain classes though, for example mage>alchemist works). You shouldn't have to go around grinding levels after switching classes, as long as you do it at the right time and only switch 1 or 2 characters at once—since the character reverts to level 1 he will gain levels quickly in more difficult areas, and his inflated HP will help him to survive.

I don't think class switching is really required for Original, or at least not for the main quest. It's definitely beneficial for offensive spellcasters though, as gaining levels after you obtain all spell slots in a certain class is basically a waste of experience. You are better off in the long run having an alchemist with mage spells and a mage with alchemist spells, than just a pure alchemist and pure mage imo.
 

Ysaye

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See, I thought I read that Alchemist, Bishop, and a trap disarmer, were essentially mandatory, so I was kind of trying to build my party around those. Without a Bishop you'd have to pay the very expensive prices to ID items in town, right?

I also don't really have a 'plan' for any of the characters, as I'm still not really fully understanding of how the class switching is beneficial, having never played I guess a 'wizardry-like' (from what I've read they're called) before. Like switching from Cleric, to Alchemist, to Thief, what is the main benefit? You end up with a Thief that has a few levels of Cleric and Alchemist spells? Do you have to keep replaying the early dungeons in order to do that, because the characters get reset to level 1 for every class change, right?

Okay - a few things here:

(1) There are no mandatory classes, but some of them are very useful for certain things. In Elminage an Alchemist is as close to a mandatory character as you have, because not only do they have some of the most useful utility spells but they also become better are crafting gear (for example - adding an automatic healing ability to armor per combat round), and crafting gear is really important in this game particularly later on. In terms of healing you really need a Cleric or a Bishop because whilst other classes like Lord and Valkyrie have those healing spells, Cleric and Bishop are the only ones that have scaling associated with level.

(2) Note you can have more than six characters; some can just be left at the Tavern. A "trick" going all the way back to the original Wizardry is to have a Bishop that you generally leave at the Tavern but switch into the party to do some IDing of items when you need it. The strength of the IDing ability is relative to the the type of item but the idea is that you get your normal characters levels up and "carry" the Bishop in every now and then to increase their levels.

(3) As Newtmonkey was explaining, when you switch classes you retain spells of your previous class and HP but go back to Level 1 of the new class. This is great if you want to create more versatile characters (So for example, create an Alchemist that has healing spells or indeed a spellcaster that has access to all spells, or a thief that can do other things other than just thieving). If you pick your timing and you only do one at a time, what happens is you can go to harder difficulty areas and "carry" your reclassed character with your non class changed characters - the reclassed character will then gain many levels back up again quickly because they are back to level 1 and the experience required to level is small and the experience that you are getting from the relevant monsters is bigger. In fact, it is actually quicker to gain all the spell casting levels of a Bishop by going Mage (I think from memory Level 14 is when you get all spells in a class) -> Cleric (Level 14) and then turning into a Bishop then it is to level a Bishop from scratch. Some things to note though - when you can to a class that does not have that spell type you only retain half the number of spells in each level that you had under the old class. The exception is Alchemist -> Hunter, for some reason the developers decided that the Hunter would retain 100% of alchemist spells. The other thing to keep in mind is the level scaling on healing and damage spells only occurs with their pure forms (Mage, Cleric) or with the Bishop. To this end, if you want a Healer or a Blaster you are better off finishing in the relevant Mage / Cleric / Bishop category. On the other hand, some people only want Mage spells for the teleporting ability, or Alchemist for the chest and trap disarming ability etc. so in those instances you might have spells on a non or weak spell casting character as backup (I like to have teleport on a Lord character because Lords are probably the tankiest in terms of status and effect resistances (you know like the annoying poison, beheadings etc.) and physical defenses partticularly at later levels and hence are more likely to survive to carry a party back to base - they are also only slightly less damaging then a fighter). Late game they also pass a certain % of those resistances onto other characters as well.

Hope that provides some guidance?
 
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I think I understand a bit better, but still am a bit confused about some stuff. The game doesn't seem to give an indicator as to which classes are considered basic, but from the Gothic wiki, it seems to be: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief, Alchemist, Servant.

I guess with that in mind - are Fighters not really worth keeping long-term, do you usually class change them to one of the advanced classes? I rolled a Samurai initially because I just happened to get a roll in the 20s very quickly on a character. But if you class change a Fighter into a Samurai, the only real added benefit would be the HP gained while as a Fighter, right? (which I guess would probably be pretty big) But the newly created Samurai will still level just as slowly as he would originally? Or is it sort of expected that you'll class change multiple times in order to build up a bigger HP pool quicker?

Also, for something like a Lord or Valkyrie, could you learn the Cleric spells first on a Cleric, and then change to one of those two, and retain all the spells? (is this what is meant by the spell retention only working for classes that learn that spell type?) Could you go from say, a Cleric to a Fighter, and then be a Fighter with Cleric spells? (but you'd have less casts of the Cleric spells, right?)

For the Thief, since it seems like you ultimately want to end up with one as sort of the final class of a character, would it be better to change a different character into one later, after you've learned whatever spells, rather than creating one outright? (because it doesn't seem like changing from Thief into anything would really be beneficial?) But it also seems like you always want a Thief, for traps, so would you have to still carry one around in the meantime?

Sorry for the questions all over the place, I appreciate the responses.
 

Ysaye

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May 27, 2018
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I think I understand a bit better, but still am a bit confused about some stuff. The game doesn't seem to give an indicator as to which classes are considered basic, but from the Gothic wiki, it seems to be: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief, Alchemist, Servant.

I guess with that in mind - are Fighters not really worth keeping long-term, do you usually class change them to one of the advanced classes? I rolled a Samurai initially because I just happened to get a roll in the 20s very quickly on a character. But if you class change a Fighter into a Samurai, the only real added benefit would be the HP gained while as a Fighter, right? (which I guess would probably be pretty big) But the newly created Samurai will still level just as slowly as he would originally? Or is it sort of expected that you'll class change multiple times in order to build up a bigger HP pool quicker?

Also, for something like a Lord or Valkyrie, could you learn the Cleric spells first on a Cleric, and then change to one of those two, and retain all the spells? (is this what is meant by the spell retention only working for classes that learn that spell type?) Could you go from say, a Cleric to a Fighter, and then be a Fighter with Cleric spells? (but you'd have less casts of the Cleric spells, right?)

For the Thief, since it seems like you ultimately want to end up with one as sort of the final class of a character, would it be better to change a different character into one later, after you've learned whatever spells, rather than creating one outright? (because it doesn't seem like changing from Thief into anything would really be beneficial?) But it also seems like you always want a Thief, for traps, so would you have to still carry one around in the meantime?

Sorry for the questions all over the place, I appreciate the responses.

No worries - these are not necessarily obvious things but the stuff that makes the game interesting.

Question about Class Ranks and what does it all mean?
In terms of class rank, it is not described in the game but the fans have generally used the following denominations based upon the experience needed to reach levels (ie. basic classes need less experience to reach each level and hence level faster):
Basic: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief, Alchemist, Servant
Intermediate: Bishop, Hunter, Brawler, Bard, Shaman, Summoner, Valkyrie
Advanced: Lord, Samurai, Ninja.

You should also note that some races (Faeries, Dragonnewts and werebeasts) also need more experience per level (meaning they level slower).

What are fighters for and should you class change them?
It is true to say that fighters do not add much apart from than HP to switching to other classes. However, there are reasons for not wanting to change class:
(1) Whilst they Fighters level fast because of the above bit and they end up with the highest raw damage (that also makes it a useful class to potentially do a final class change into after acquiring some useful utility spells); and
(2) All Elminage games throw in items called "Innocent" gear which is amongst the best gear in the game, and it can only be worn by characters that haven't class changed.

I actually always tend to run with at least one fighter - it is boring the scheme of things, but then by mid game regardless of what you have done with others you still always have a dependable fighter.

With respect to changing from a fighter to a Samurai, yes they will still level at the same rate as before with only maybe some extra HP - changing class is really cosmetic in that instance. It is better to make a Samurai out of a Mage (to get the spells faster) or out of another spell casting class.. which leads to

Retention of Spells between class changing
For a Lord or a Valkyrie, can you first learn all the spells as a Cleric and retain them when you change to a Lord / Valkyrie? Yes that is correct. Just remember though that Clerics can only be Good / Evil initially, so if you want to create a Valkyrie (which is Neutral only) you will need to find a way to effect that. The other thing to remember is that you don't get the healing scaling bonus with a Lord or a Valkyrie (same with a mage going to a Samurai or Bard/Entertainer). A Bishop though retains some of the scaling. I know Aweigh has argued at the end game / post game there is a really decent argument for a Cleric in the party, just because the scaled healing is that much more useful.

You can go from a cleric to a fighter but in that instance you only a max of 3 spell mana per level that you have learnt (so for example if you got to a point as a cleric where you could cast 8 level 1 spells, when you swap over you will only be able to cast 3 level 1 spells. The one exception is going from an Alchemist to a Hunter; in that instance for some bizarre reason you retain the same number despite the fact that Hunters don't learn Alchemist spells.

Thief Class Changing
Yes there are really no benefits from changing from a thief to another class. And yes there are benefits in turning a spellcaster into a thief so that they have access to utility spells.

I tend to have a thief that I start with, and I create a thief from a spellcaster as well later down the track. In Elminage Original the best weapons are generally monster weapons that you will want to steal, so having a thief all the time is good, although troublesome. In Elminage Gothic this is not the case, and in that one I tend to just to use a series of characters that can use the alchemist spells to detect / remove traps and unlock.

Hope that helps? Also if any of the real Elminage nerds want to give better advice, please do (I know there are others who know this game way better than I do out there).
 
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Thanks Ysaye, a lot of helpful information. It's a lot to think about, with innocent gear and whatnot haha, but none of my characters are high enough level to really consider switching yet, I think.

I ended up making a fighter and mage, so my current party is Fighter, Brawler, Cleric, Thief, Alchemist, Mage, all levels 8-9. I just bought the Fighter the Flamberge, and he's now my strongest character by far, so much so that it's kind of comical how much damage he's doing compared to everyone else (he can do close to 70 to a single target, or use the flamberge ability and do between 30-60 to an entire row, while my Brawler hits for maybe 10 if he gets unlucky and only gets a single hit). I'm still sort of struggling with where to go. I explored the first area of the second dungeon (the forest), but once I got to the point where it shifted me to the other map, I once again seemed to be dying very quickly. I'm now trying to explore the Marsh, with the sliding traps, but it seems like when I go to the "Mirror" Marsh (which seems mandatory to explore or even get back to the entrance) I still die very quickly. All the other dungeons have a higher monster rating, so I'm guessing I'm doing the right thing - the game just seems very difficult all around.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Mostly good info here, but one correction: if you change class to one that doesn't get the same spellbook, you'll not keep half of spell slots - you'll get exactly 3 spell slots per spell level instead.

Frankly, in Original I see little reason to class change non-casters prior to post-game. The base game ends around level 30-ish AFAIR - and that's when non-base classes start learning their High Mastery abilities - the main reason to keep a character single-class, I'd say.
Thief is extremly usefull in Original once he gets to level 26 and gets his Steal mastery. That's the best reason to keep him pure class.

Samurais can dual wield strong weapons (need some luck/grinding to get their best arms), but their Swallow Return High Mastery is particularely nice - has a chance to negate an enemy attack and riposte. Also some of their top equipment comes with a behead chance.
Multiclassing martial characters is counter-productive IMO. You get a better attack bonus AND higher number of attacks "per swing" with higher level.
 

newtmonkey

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lentils_and_rice
I found the forest to really get very difficult quickly, so you may want to put it aside for now and start exploring the first floor of the third dungeon (or go back to the second floor of the first dungeon). Getting the flamberge is a massive increase in power and you might find you can make a bit more progress with it. You can use your alchemist to put a sleep effect on your brawler's bandages... since he attacks multiple times you would have a pretty good chance of getting sleep to stick on the enemy.

What are you doing tactically during battles? Do you have the level 4 cleric spell (Hallobukarm) that improves the party AC by 2 while outside of town? You can also use your alchemist's level 1 spell (Mahamaha) to 100% escape from any battle if you run into powerful spellcasters.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
You'll want to return to the Heart of the Forest once your Thief hits level 26...
 
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lentils_and_rice
You can use your alchemist to put a sleep effect on your brawler's bandages... since he attacks multiple times you would have a pretty good chance of getting sleep to stick on the enemy.

What are you doing tactically during battles? Do you have the level 4 cleric spell (Hallobukarm) that improves the party AC by 2 while outside of town? You can also use your alchemist's level 1 spell (Mahamaha) to 100% escape from any battle if you run into powerful spellcasters.

I haven't used Alchemy yet, though I do have some materials, so that's probably my first mistake. I wasn't sure if I should save the materials until I got different / better gear that I might have for longer (my gear is still mostly starting gear that you can buy from the shop).

I'm probably too conservative with my spells, since they seem so limited in number, I try not to waste them, but usually if I see (what I think will be) tougher enemies, the spells I tend to rely on are the Sleep Row, Paralyze Row, Lower party AC, and Increase Party Attack Frequency (sorry I don't remember the names). Those tend to feel better to me than the low level straight damage spells. But I think sometimes I don't identify threats early enough. And if Paralyze/Sleep fail it's usually trouble. I almost always use the Flamberge now on a row that looks threatening (though, that seems to sometimes backfire, in my last session I was trying to explore the second level of the first dungeon, and ran into the hand monsters, who confused my fighter before he acted, and then he flamberged my own party and killed the back three), but my Fighter (DragonNewt) seems to act close to last most fights.
 

newtmonkey

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lentils_and_rice
From what I remember you won't find better weapons for the brawler for a long time, so you might as well upgrade what you have. You can also add HP regeneration properties to equipment, which helps to reduce how often you need to heal.

I too found that the low level damage spells don't do much. Once you get spells that attack multiple enemies, those can be pretty useful. For now it's definitely better to focus on status effects and buffing, like you mentioned.

Early on, it's definitely better to use spells often even if it means you'll have to retreat to town quicker. A good rule of thumb is to head back to town once you've used half of your (useful) spell slots, under the assumption that it took half your spells to get where you are and so it should roughly take that many to get you back to town safely.

Exploration is pretty slow early on and sometimes it seems like you might be only making baby steps, but you are gaining EXP and gold/items each step of the way and slowing uncovering the map.

Once you get Hallobukarm for your cleric, it will make things a bit easier. It gives you a straight -2 AC to all characters for as long as you are in the dungeon. It doesn't sound like much, but I always found it to really help keep characters alive longer than usual.

A big part of this series (as well as Wizardry) is learning what enemies are capable of, and either taking out priority targets quickly or just escaping from battle. It's worth having an alchemist merely for the Mahamaha spell, which lets you 100% (?) escape from any battle.
 

newtmonkey

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The structure of this game is fantastic. You can play through 99% of the game without even touching on the main quest or many of the sub-quests. After 25 hours I had explored about half of the dungeons (several fully explored), but realized I had only found one or two rings. I had enough fame built up to find all but the last ring, so I then went through the in-game quest list and went around doing a few of the easier quests to get enough fame to get the last ring. I then headed to the final area, but it's a bit difficult for my party so I decided to do some more exploring and solve some more quests.

Doing the sub-quests opens up a whole new aspect of the game. It's entertaining to go back through places you've explored to solve these, and it's often pretty rewarding because you unlock meta stuff like new races for character creation, benefits in shops, etc.

I think I can probably struggle through the final area with my current party, and with some luck complete the game soon. Not sure if I will do the post-game content, as I'd rather move on to Elminage II honestly.
 

Dorarnae

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The structure of this game is fantastic. You can play through 99% of the game without even touching on the main quest or many of the sub-quests. After 25 hours I had explored about half of the dungeons (several fully explored), but realized I had only found one or two rings. I had enough fame built up to find all but the last ring, so I then went through the in-game quest list and went around doing a few of the easier quests to get enough fame to get the last ring. I then headed to the final area, but it's a bit difficult for my party so I decided to do some more exploring and solve some more quests.

Doing the sub-quests opens up a whole new aspect of the game. It's entertaining to go back through places you've explored to solve these, and it's often pretty rewarding because you unlock meta stuff like new races for character creation, benefits in shops, etc.

I think I can probably struggle through the final area with my current party, and with some luck complete the game soon. Not sure if I will do the post-game content, as I'd rather move on to Elminage II honestly.

I think you should do a part of the post game, maybe not the gods but at least the 8 demons
 

Casual Hero

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I'm struggling to come up with a party composition that I like.
I really want to have a Brawler, Alchemist, and Bard in my party. I hear that a Thief is super useful for stealing items, so I'd probably take one of them as well. But, that just about fills up my backrow, right? A Thief, Alchemist, and Bard in my back... it doesn't sound like I'd have much magical support at all. Maybe I could move someone to the front, but I want some fire-power up there (I was thinking Lord and Samurai). How screwed would I be if I didn't have a Mage, Cleric, or Bishop? Of course, I guess I haven't thought about changing classes yet.

Also, Shaman? Servant? Summoner? I have no idea what these classes do, but they sound cool. Dang it... I wish we could have a party of 8... or 10.

EDIT: I'm still curious about what you guys have to say about my questions, but dang it, I'm going to create my party (Brawler, Lord, Samurai, Thief, Alchemist, Bard) and just go for it.
I'm here to have fun.
 
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