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Nobunaga Taishi ?

Silva

Arcane
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How is this? Just got it for cheap and waiting for the physical disc to arrive.

I see from reviews they attempted to simplify the NA formula for mobile, while injecting some Europa Universalis into it. Did it work?

Edit: apparently the PUK never came out in english, but then it doesn't seem to add much and even roll back battles to real-time which sounds a bad idea to me.

Edit2: there's also a new game coming up later this year, called "Shinsei".
 

downwardspiral

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The only sailing point is combat.
In original without PUK the combat system is heavily emphasized in morale. The battle usually won before one side completely destroying other side.
Where in PUK, the morale play a lesser role and addition of a multi stages siege battle system.

Outside of combat, the game almost have nothing to play.

It is generally regarded as one of the worst in NA series.
However if you treat it as one of those Japanese flashy mobile card game with fast pace combat, it might not be that awful.


Edit:
To elaborate a bit more.
The game changed many of the core concepts in traditional Koei’s game.
They streamlined the utility of your characters outside of combat.
You have scheduled meeting where you choose one of your characters proposal to gain some policy points, a bit like mana point.
And use that mana points to invest in corresponding tech tree.
That tech tree affect everything in your factions.
Some daimyo have quick access to their own special tech
Those are all good stuffs.

But the problem is that this system has very little castle/character asignment.
In the past you usually need to assign few characters to each castle to develop or defend that province.
Now that is mostly gone, you don’t develop your land by your characters.
Your character propose mana points for you to invest so you get better tech for your development.
However since you only get same amount of propose each meeting.
Having more characters doesn’t help much.
Most of your character will never seen any usage.
And combat is focus more on decisive battle instead of many small regional combat.
Thus you most likely move most of your best combat characters into few frontline castle
and the rest just sit in few centralized educational castles.
Unlike in the past you usually spread out your character all over Japan.
It almost played like those Japanese character collection mobile or web game.

The lack of utility of your hero outside of combat is probably why some people refer taishi having paradox influence.
Because, KOEI is known for their emphasize in historical character and hero.
Where paradox have a more nillistic view on hero and historical character.



They know this short coming so they put up a patch where you can build economic and military building in province.
But you don’t need to move your character to nearby to build thing,
This can be seen as good thing since it removed the micromangement.
However you most likely to put all your characters in 2-3 castle surrounded by educational building to level up.
It felt gamey as hell.
And most of the economic and military building has very limited effect.
You can ignore them without any problem, since this building system is most likely an after thought.


The big plus is, if you treat it as combatfag game like NA:Tenshouki.
Then this is not a bad game.
The economy and deplomacy is extremely fast pace and can be ignored easily.
And there is no small tedious battle but only major battle.

However, there is another big problem with PUK.
In PUK they made morale less important than OG.
In OG, you win by destroying enemy's will to fight.
You don't annihilate them all.
And tactical maneuver tend to help you achieve this.
In PUK, you win by destroying enemy.


They also made your energy bar in combat shared by all ally troops.
That means most of your combat characters won't have any chance to use their special move.
Because you want all your energy bar used by the best character again and again.

In short, the combat in PUK played more like ROTK 13.

The addition of siege battle is nice but mostly a graphic thing than a gameplay changer.
It is good that some of the famous castles get their special map. If you are into historical castles,
This might be a big plus, otherwise it is probably meh for most people.
They also made tactical scheme more like ROTK 13.



Don’t be sad if you can’t play PUK, it really doesn’t improve much.
In some regards it made combat much more boring .
I have PUK and after playing it for a while, I rather play OG without PUK again.

Usually each KOEI's game has a gameplay focus.
Taishi is a combatfag game.
 
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Executr

Cipher
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I prefer it over Sphere of Influence with PUK. Better combat, economy, construction and agriculture systems.
The new Resolve feature adds variety for each playthrough. Each daimyo has a different Resolve which basicly is a set of objectives that when completed grant bonuses to the clan.
Diplomacy is the only aspect that's very barebones, ex. you can't create Coalitions or give gold/supplies to other clans. I believe this was addressed by the PUK, which sadly wasn't released in the West.
The lack of scenarios is also troubling. I think the PUK added some, like the 1600 one. Others are DLC (they're learning from Paradox...).

The game released in a poor state, thus the bad reviews and low sales, but they eventually patched it. The lack of PUK though will make me rethink future purchases of Koei games.
 

Silva

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After a dozen or so hours I'm liking it. It's dumbed down in some aspects yeah, but the "macro strategy" feels rather good. Reminds me of EU4 in that internal management is shallow as a puddle but the map is this geopolitical web of commerce, alliances, marriages, etc. you must unweave to expand. And the idea of "Resolves" feeds nicely into it, making different AI clans behaving different depending on their resolves.

I'm only mixed about battles. I've had 2, one fast and fun, the other long and boring. Well, I'll play more and see what I think. So far I'm liking it more than SOI/Ascension. Dont know if due to the game being my new shiny though. Let's see...

Edit: ninjad by everyone above. Yeah, what you said.
 
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Silva

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Taishi is a combatfag game.
Was NA ever another thing? Honest question.

I never played older entries in NA series but Sphere of Influence is woefully simplistic behind it's facade of "historic simulation series" (which is just a playing house with historical figures mini-game that never seemed to add much to the strategy layer IMO). At least Taishi is more honest as it takes the smoke & mirrors out and tells the player upfront it's a map-painting game.
 
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downwardspiral

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Taishi is a combatfag game.
Was NA ever another thing? Honest question.

I mean, I never played older entries in the series but Sphere of Influence is woefully simplistic behind it's facade of "historic simulation series" (which is frankly just a Sims-like layer that never added much to the strategy aspect IMO).

At least Taishi feels more honest as it takes the smoke & mirrors out and tells the player upfront it's a map-painting game.




Koei’s game are not hardcore strategy game or trying to be strategic much.

The game is mostly a historical hero, character and events showcase.
It never shy away from admiting it is a map painting game.
In fact ROTK 14 's dev talk about they want to make a casual map painting game.
That doesn't mean all those system are just smoke and mirrors.
Because those system are mostly for larping/immersion purpose.

Koei’s games seldom call their game strategy, they usually call them historical sim.
And that genre definition is probably originated from simulation games in 80s.
Simulation genre in Japan are not necessary hardcore game.
And Koei’s very rarely trying to market themselves as hardcore company,
It is often marketed as easy to access, casual game.



The more hardcore computer Japanese sengoku game in Japan are てんかとういつ series.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/天下統一シリーズ
Unlike NA, this series is more focus on feudalism aspect of Japan.
Diplomacy and such.
However the series and company became very casual post 2000s
because there is not much market for those games in Japan.

The reason why taishi is a combatfag game.
Usually in both NA and ROTK series, every 2-3 iteration Koei will change the game mechanics.
Similar to final fantasy series where 9 is not a sequel to 8, and 10 is not a sequel to 9.

However, due to KOEI’s game usually have a theme focus, so
There are usually two gameplay elements in NA and ROTK.



1 Economy focus, by economy heavy I mean grinding and farming. Not some simcity madness.
NA: raise to power and Reppuden are both examples of ecnomy heavy.


2 Combat focus, such as Tenshouki. By combat focus it doesn't mean it is combat mission or other tactical game.
Koei never try to make any "deep" game , at least ROTK and NA series aren't doing that.
The reason Tenshouki is combat focus not because it has a very detailed or complex combat system,
In fact Reppuden probably have more stuff to do in combat.
But Tenshouki is very fast pace with character raising system.
So it tends to attract people who focus on combat.
Where Reppuden’s combat is not bad but it is too slow pace so it tend to attract people who just want to grind and farm.


Most of NA are mixed bags of two. So both type of players can found something to do.
NA and ROTK tend to borrow gameplay system from each other.

Iron Triangle is an updated version of ROTK 9.
Both combat fag and grinding fag can find something to do in iron triangle.
But not taishi, grinding fag can’t do much in taishi.
That is why it is often treated as a combat focus game.


As for none combatfag and non grindingfag NA.
Soutensoku is one.
It is one of the more underrated NA.
Heavily focused on diplomacy and ninjia scheme.


Character management is one major selling point of Koei’s game.
Because they have over 1000 historical characters with records.

The tedious character assignment can be viewed as assigning historical regiment in WW2 games.
You know, those regiment with long number and order of battle.
It is something appeal to historical fans.


The problem of taishi is, it has the most characters in the series.
Yet, player don’t get to use most of them other than building stuff in province.
And all of your farming character all sit in one castle and teleport to other side of Japan to build stuff.
It is for immersion purpose, when you write AAR or trying to be immersed into the game.
That is not as immersive as game where character has more connection to the province or land.

SOI’s character assignment system is a bit tedious.
Soutensoku is a bit better in that regard.
 
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Silva

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Thanks for the history lesson, downwardspiral ! Two questions then:

1) How does Taishi fare as combatfag entry? Do you or the jap fans (I assume you're japanese for your knowledge on the series) consider it good in this regard? Or there are better ones?

2) What is the best entry for "playing house", which is supposedly the series' thing? I assume is that Soutensoku one? (what is its english name?)
 
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Silva

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Interestingly, I've discovered that the effects of different ninja villages accumulate. That means if you develop them in territories such that their AoE overlap, invading armies will suffer their added effects. Some data from my test:

Enemy force: 10.040 troops

Within reach of 2 ninja villages:
On turn 1: 1750 provisions & 430 troops lost
On turn 2: 1690 provisions & 543 troops lost
On turn 3: 1390 provisions & 448 troops lost

Within reach of only 1 ninja village:
On turn 1: 890 provisions & 270 troops lost
On turn 2: 810 provisions & 240 troops lost
On turn 3: 760 provisions & 220 troops lost

Notes:
- the villages tested were level 5. I had another one at level 8 but it was at the other side of my territory.

- Momochi Sandayu appears on second month asking to join if you play Rokkaku clan. He is the only officer I've seen who can raise a ninja village to level 8. The others reach level 5 max. I suspect it's due to his "Ninja Scouts" quality, which I noticed all ninja-like characters have (Hattori Hanzo, Fuma Kotaro, etc). Not sure if its exclusive to these characters, but it seems a rare quality.
 

downwardspiral

Learned
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Yes they are rare and having related trait is more important than having high attribute
Attributes needs for building
Lv 2 50-59
Lv 3 60-69
Lv 4 70-79
Lv 5 80-89
Lv 6 90-99
Lv 7 100-109
Lv 8 110-119
Lv 9 120-129
Lv 10 130

Every related trait will counted as additional 20 towards calculation
So an officer with 55 + one trait = 55+20 = 75 = lv 4

Some educational buildings have specific trait that add 40 instead of 20
 

Silva

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Yes they are rare and having related trait is more important than having high attribute
Attributes needs for building
Lv 2 50-59
Lv 3 60-69
Lv 4 70-79
Lv 5 80-89
Lv 6 90-99
Lv 7 100-109
Lv 8 110-119
Lv 9 120-129
Lv 10 130

Every related trait will counted as additional 20 towards calculation
So an officer with 55 + one trait = 55+20 = 75 = lv 4

Some educational buildings have specific trait that add 40 instead of 20
Thanks for the info.

How are officers choosen for each council meeting? Is it totally random or is ther some criteria? I see some officers show up almost always, while others pop up here and there.
 

downwardspiral

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How are officers choosen for each council meeting? Is it totally random or is ther some criteria? I see some officers show up almost always, while others pop up here and there.

It is mostly random but some tech will increase the effectiveness of the proposal and the preference of proposal. Like focus on newly recruited officer or veteran officer.
And special effect suggested by officer with special traits will last one season and expired in the next meeting.
 

Silva

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How are officers choosen for each council meeting? Is it totally random or is ther some criteria? I see some officers show up almost always, while others pop up here and there.

It is mostly random but some tech will increase the effectiveness of the proposal and the preference of proposal. Like focus on newly recruited officer or veteran officer.
And special effect suggested by officer with special traits will last one season and expired in the next meeting.
Ascension's Inner Circle concept would fit like a glove here, no? Letting the player pick the council he prefers (or at least increasing the chance of those appearing in councils), would be a good way to manage officers in line with Taishi focus on "macro" management.

Affecting it through Policies is not a bad idea either, but feels much less transparent.
 
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Silva

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As Nobuhide, when is the right time to go for Imagawa? I waited for Nobunaga to take the reins but it was too late as Imagaw had blobbed up by then (even took Saitô lands) so it was game over. Any tips welcomed.
 

downwardspiral

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Ascension's Inner Circle concept would fit like a glove here, no? Letting the player pick the council he prefers (or at least increasing the chance of those appearing in councils), would be a good way to manage officers in line with Taishi focus on "macro" management.

Affecting it through Policies is not a bad idea either, but feels much less transparent.

Yes, taishi will be a better game if it address few design problem.

1. Making some economic officer assign to each province, like SOI but without the tedious district building

2. Implementing inner circle or hierarchy system, Ascension and ROTK 13 both have some insight on this.

3. Reverting field combat back to OG.

However personally I will rate Ascension the worst NA in recent years, even worse than taishi OG or PUK.
Because Ascension is not really an upgrade of SOI PUK.
SOI has 3 versions.
And they are not necessary pure upgrade to each other
1 SOI OG - The combat is linear like Soutensoku but with even less details (only one line instead of 3 from Soutensoku)
2 SOI PUK - addition of open field battle. But honestly I seldom play manual battle in SOI, I think the strength of SOI is bigger picture.
3 SOI Risshiden or Ascension. Make the field battle even more details but too many inconsistency. It is one of those games where auto resolve is drastically different to manual control.
And complete overhaul of district and resource system. Thus making the game extremely tedious yet there are some loophole in that system as it is not build from ground up as a new game but just an overhaul of SOI PUK.
AI can't really play that new economic system much. Thus you will find many weird things in late games and you also have pocket dimension.
The officer play is no way close to Taikou Risshiden 5.

Overall, it is usually recommend to play SOI PUK over SOI Risshiden or Ascension if one want to play the best version of SOI.



As Nobuhide, when is the right time to go for Imagawa? I waited for Nobunaga to take the reins but it was too late as Imagaw had blobbed up by then (even took Saitô lands) so it was game over. Any tips welcomed.
If you want to experience the historical event of Battle of Okehazama and all the events of nobunaga's joraku. It is best to play as nobunaga from the start instead of his father. Because computer AI usually expand much faster than historical records.
Thus by the time nobunaga become the daimyo, your condition might be too off rail to trigger the event.

However, from what I understand, you need to have Takigawa Kazumasu, Maeda Toshiie, Niwa Nagahide and Shibata Katsuie in your faction.
Some of the officer are not in your faction at the start of game if you play as nobunaga's father.
You also need to make sure Tokugawa Ieyasu ( or Matsudaira Motoyasu his earlier name in earlier scenario) is still in Imagawa faction as hostage.

If you just want to beat stronger AI. Then use battle frontage to your advantage.
Some area will have an upper limit of force.
So fight there if enemy is much bigger than you.
And if you play OG instead of PUK, you can win easily by taking down enemy C in C and getting instant win.
If you play PUK, then it is harder.
If time allow, military building that decrease the battlefield frontage also help against bigger enemey.
 
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Silva

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downwardspiral , what is "C in C" ?

I continued my campaign and kicked Imagawa's ass when I found out my troops are OP as fuck. Kazumasa and that Shibata dude have that golden circled skills (I assume special?) called Take Aim and Ogre Shibata that cut through enemy troops like knife on butter. I ended up overreaching though, and now I'm fighting on 3 fronts (Imagawa, Takeda and Asakusa/small clan to the north) and already lost a couple castles. I would probably win with enough grit but I'm inclined to drop it and start anew on Okehazama scenario as per your suggestion (so I can see those historical quests).

Btw, I noticed the AI is kinda dumb when on the offense? They run for those little outposts on all battles, getting themselves opened and making things easy for my troops. They seem competent on the defense though. So question:

- Are those outposts REALLY important like that, and should I go for them too on the offense? Or is the AI just borked for going to them? If the later: how do I compensate for it? Can I help the AI by spreading my troops to the front of the outposts? Would the AI come for me and ignore the posts then? I dont want to cheese.
 

downwardspiral

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downwardspiral , what is "C in C" ?
Commander-in-Chief.
I continued my campaign and kicked Imagawa's ass when I found out my troops are OP as fuck. Kazumasa and that Shibata dude have that golden circled skills (I assume special?) called Take Aim and Ogre Shibata that cut through enemy troops like knife on butter. I ended up overreaching though, and now I'm fighting on 3 fronts (Imagawa, Takeda and Asakusa/small clan to the north) and already lost a couple castles. I would probably win with enough grit but I'm inclined to drop it and start anew on Okehazama scenario as per your suggestion (so I can see those historical quests).
Shibata Katsuie's special move is atk and def boost, top tier one.
Nobunaga's special move are learnt through event. Slightly weaker than Shibata but will buff nearby ally as well.
Btw, I noticed the AI is kinda dumb when on the offense? They run for those little outposts on all battles, getting themselves opened and making things easy for my troops. They seem competent on the defense though. So question:

- Are those outposts REALLY important like that, and should I go for them too on the offense? Or is the AI just borked for going to them? If the later: how do I compensate for it? Can I help the AI by spreading my troops to the front of the outposts? Would the AI come for me and ignore the posts then? I dont want to cheese.

Not really that important.
In OG You notice that if your morale bar on the top of screen reach either side then that side win regardless of the actual situation.
Taking those position move that bar slightly. Not as important as making enemy unit rout.
There are some other minor details in Taishi battle.
Like reinforcement, if your force is bigger than the battlefield frontage, the exceeded troop will arrive as reinforce.
Your troops need to be still to let reinforce merge, once you move the reinforcement stop.
It force smaller troop to rush the larger troop.

And the difference between professional soldiers(ashigaru) vs peasant soldiers.
The Ashigaru can fight longer without morale drop. But that doesn't mean ashigaru is stronger than peasant.
This also present in SOI in the form of how you recruit your soldiers but it doesn't affect the combat performance or morale.

KOEI's AIs are very stupid. The way to increase difficulty tend to be imposing some restriction on youself.
It could be playing weaker faction with weaker characters. All of the famous daimyo have stronger characters.
Nobunaga faction is one of the strongest in game.

Or play iron triangle OG and let Uesugi Kenshin expand and become your enemy.

This is probably why ROTK 9, 14 and NA iron triangle are popular because they don't have tactical map.
KOEI AI tend to be less bad without tactical map. Because less exploitation player can do.
 
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Silva

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Ok, got it.

Back to Council meetings...

Would it be advisable to keep the number of officers low? I mean, the more officers I recruit the smaller the chance of the really good ones contributing to Councils right?

Assuming the rationale is valid, what would be a good number of officers per base? My first thought is 3 as it let's you carry 2 to wars (leader + advisor) and leave one to manage the base. But then I remembered the maidens which are important for marriages. So maybe 4 is a good number? Should I start exiling the shitty officers when I see this numbers raising too much, if I want keep my Councils effective?

Edit: or am I overthinking it?
 
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Silva

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Ok, after playing more I can say this game is pretty good in a fast pace, little micromanagement, Europa Universalis -like way. Only with a tad more warfare logistics as in Hearts of Iron, but nothing too deep. If that fancies you, and you're a fan of the sengoku jidai period, get it. Don't hear the negative reviews.

That said, it's ALL OVER THE PLACE in terms of balance:

- AI is inconsistent. Sometimes it kicks your ass in marvelous ways, other times it's stupid and suicidal.

- Some Resolves are broken. Oda one is HILARIOUSLY broken. It makes you swim in food, never having to worry about the game logistics again. And consequentially it makes you rich too, as the only thing to do with all that food is to sell it.

- Warfare has this pattern where it's easy to defend and hard to attack. This is not a problem in isolation (and is even realistic), but becomes one when you realize the battle AI is decent on defense but stupid when attacking. So the pattern becomes easy to abuse.

- Some battle plans are overpowered. I.e: Lure Provocation.

- Disasters are broken. If you got the couple flood policies you never have to worry about floods again for the rest of the game. Same for sickness, etc. Only earthquakes continue posing a threat but they are rare.

- Automated battles should give a better idea on the odds involved. Right now it's "guaranteed sucess" and "I dont ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ know". The later makes you win sometimes and lose others (50/50?). There should be a number showing you those odds exactly, and the modifiers involved (what's the percentile bonus for defending on altitude? Or under a Fortress range?). This would let the player take informed decisions to automate, specially so in the long road as the game gets a chore if you fight every battle manually.

- The Council Tech Tree mechanic is interesting but could be better executed. Right now it's too random and the player can't do much to affect it. Also, the effects could be better thought out instead of being just + to this or ++ to that.

- The lack of Covert options in vanilla version is felt. I.e: There are policies that need certain officers to be implemented... but there's no way to seek those officers in vanilla (only in PUK version). I.e2: before battles there's a field on enemy plan with a "?" mark, leaving the impression that it can be discovered by the player in some way. Unfortunately that's not true, except in the PUK version through covert options, again.

So, the game could benefit from another round of patches to iron out those kinks (which will never happen, sadly). In current state it's comparable to a Paradox title in an early version, full of exploits and weird shit. I still like it and would rate it 7-8/10 depending on my mood and drunkness, but be advised.

EDIT:
I forgot to say...

The game has this Alpha Centauri quality to it in it's leaders personalities. The Resolve system (and the AI underneath) really makes guys like Uesugi feel like the bold but honorable adversaries, Matsunaga the oportunistic bastard, Tokugawa the loyal ally, etc. that legends paint. Which makes the AI feel pretty alive and human, just like SMAC.
 
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