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Path of Exile is a MAJESTIC incline

Perkel

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Just read manifesto.

Glorious changes that were much needed. I think a lot of you think that everyone runs with 6 links. 95% of people run with 5links. The 1% is actually the most hit by those changes not the lower ones.

1. Mana cost went through the roof which means you can't just stack zylion of damage via links because you either will have to let go defense or you will have no mana for that zylion damage.
2. Flasks got nuked. This was what 1% played. 95% of other people never cared for flasks and never used them like 1% uses them and always found that mechanic shit since they increased monster desnity.
3. Major damage buffs from supports got nuked hard. With 6 links we are talking about nearly 60% damage reduction for 5 links it is about 40%
4. They reduced a lot of sources of move speed. They changed few key items as well nuked from orbit increased movement speed mod on flasks from 20-30% to 6-8%. So that hits hard zoomers and their piano turbo.
5. Curse/elemental aflictions imminities got butchered. 1% main defense was always curse resists and elemental afliction resists now they have to actually hit flaks correctly and curse flasks don't give curse immunities.

What that means is that those 1% ters you talk about that "won't feel it only 99% will" actually got hit hard.

1% are the ones that used the most effective combinations of supports which means they are the most affected by damage nerfs
1% are the ones who played flasks piano the most and got huge buffs due to that. They are the one hit the most by it.
1% are the ones stacked move speed the most for that zoom zoom, with flasks nerfs turbo is reduced a lot
1% are the ones who got imminities for everything, now they won't and will have to deal with what 95% of people deal.

Yes 1% are still 1% who will still be at the top but the gap between 1% and 99% of rest got much much much narrower. On other hand 1% won't be able to just one shot everything and have constantly up megadefences normal people won't be able to even think up.
 

Perkel

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Obviously this is not everything they want to change. They already said about monster rebalance in act 1 but before POE2 hits they have to slow down a lot game.

Once game is slowed down they can think about redecing monster density and by that absolute crap ton of effects on screen cleaning out game for people to actually see gameplay.
 

lukaszek

the determinator
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those sneaky bastards. Thought that pulsing traps scaling with trap throwing speed is a boost but then I realised how little that can be boosted in the tree
 

Perkel

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... it's not that hard to get a 6 link that isn't Tabula Rasa.

Yeah if you trade. Here is a thing. GGG said that almost all people don't trade at all. If they do they usually trade few items each league and that is it.

Getting 6link right for you build isn't as easy as you think. First you need to find one with right base because 6l bow won't be any of use for spellcasting witch. Then you have to roll shitload of times to get right colors which cost currency and each time you modify your skill/support setup you have to do it again.

which is why most of people play with 5links instead.
 

Reever

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Yeah if you trade. Here is a thing. GGG said that almost all people don't trade at all. If they do they usually trade few items each league and that is it.
Maybe they'd do it more if it didn't require a premium stash tab
Technically you can trade without a premium stash tab but good luck with that.
or having to go through 3 pages of prices fixers and scammers. I know I'm overexaggerating but all these nuisances compound and it's why the community is so negative all the time.
 

Jason Liang

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... it's certainly not that hard to either find a 6L from a vaal side area (I found 3 in the two weeks that I played of Ultimatum league) or just spam Fuses (you can get 1-2 6L with a little luck spamming all the fuses you find).

I also found trading more or less as painless as 3 years ago. A little less active (although maybe the reason was because I was playing in the last 2 weeks of league?) perhaps. The only pain was trading for a decent Watcher's Eye.
 

Lone Wolf

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Glorious changes that were much needed. I think a lot of you think that everyone runs with 6 links. 95% of people run with 5links. The 1% is actually the most hit by those changes not the lower ones.

I'm not a massive hater of the changes, but your information is just factually wrong.

You can get correctly coloured corrupted 6-links for 10-30c a few days into a league. It's just not an obstacle to any sort of player, outside of a weird combination of new and SSF. A fraction of a fraction would fit that description.

In fact, when you use '1%', I suspect you mean the 20-30% who are reasonably experienced players. The actual 1% are metacrafters and group runners, who are doing UES and UA runs by the third day of a league, and who can farm a Headhunter by the end of day two. There are people out there who can farm a Mirror within two days.

Whatever the case, hitting the 1% is going to revolve around smashing Aurabots and Aura Stackers and nerfing the reward structure for group play. Being in a 2-6 man setup should not be disproportionately rewarding for everyone involved.

just spam Fuses (you can get 1-2 6L with a little luck spamming all the fuses you find).

Jason, this is not good advice.

Don't do it to yourselves, getting a 6-link on a 20 qual item is about 1-1,500. Often, you need 2,000+ fusings. You can reliably get most chests/2-handers 6-linked for a similar cost in ex that those fusings would bring in. A 6-linked Inpulsa was going for 5-8 ex in Ultimatum. 2,000 fusings come out to ~700-800 Chaos, which amounts to... 5-8 ex, depending on the timing. Furthermore, if you're really itching to burn 1,500 fusings, find the bench recipe for 6-linking. It costs exactly that to 6-link via bench.

Otherwise you might end up like that guy who spent 6,500 fusings and didn't even link the fucking item, then quit the league.
 

Perkel

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I'm not a massive hater of the changes, but your information is just factually wrong.
You can get correctly coloured corrupted 6-links for 10-30c a few days into a league. It's just not an obstacle to any sort of player, outside of a weird combination of new and SSF. A fraction of a fraction would fit that description..

1. Corrupted can't be modified (colors can but good luck spending 100s of valls to get 6l colors changed to what you want). Meaning if you skill setup changes there goes your 6l.
2. 90% of people don't trade at all or they do only few items trade according to GGG
3. Even if you aquire non corrupted 6l it will be probably wrong base and even if you get the right one it takes a lot of currency to make colors in way you want.

Either way the point of what i said is that 6L get around 60% damage reduction while 5L around 40% and that does not count mana changes so maybe you will have to spend more nodes on mana instead of defense/attack which may further reduce damage.

The most hit by it are the top players not the lower ones.
 

Lone Wolf

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Considering it costs 10-30c to get the colours you need with reasonable (not optimal) stats, it's quicker and easier to just buy a new chest if your needs change.

And anyone who plays this game for more than a few hours - and doesn't play SSF - will find themselves trading. You can't balance the game to target people who are literally trying out a F2P ARPG, then dropping it by Act 3. Outside of a conscious, principal-driven decision, there's no reason why the majority of the player base wouldn't use the shitty trade system.
 

Jason Liang

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Don't do it to yourselves, getting a 6-link on a 20 qual item is about 1-1,500. Often, you need 2,000+ fusings. You can reliably get most chests/2-handers 6-linked for a similar cost in ex that those fusings would bring in. A 6-linked Inpulsa was going for 5-8 ex in Ultimatum. 2,000 fusings come out to ~700-800 Chaos, which amounts to... 5-8 ex, depending on the timing. Furthermore, if you're really itching to burn 1,500 fusings, find the bench recipe for 6-linking. It costs exactly that to 6-link via bench.

Otherwise you might end up like that guy who spent 6,500 fusings and didn't even link the fucking item, then quit the league.
I've always found the best rate of return on fuse orbs is to spam them on a valuable chest. It's certainly better to use fuse orbs yourself than to trade them into chance orbs or alch orbs. Obviously if you can get the best of 10 harvest crafts it is an even better deal.
 
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Whatever the case, hitting the 1% is going to revolve around smashing Aurabots and Aura Stackers and nerfing the reward structure for group play. Being in a 2-6 man setup should not be disproportionately rewarding for everyone involved.
I can understand the idea behind slamming aurabots/energybatteries, but I can't understand this constant push against party play not being a complete waste of time.

If support only characters were not a thing, why exactly should people who are already being punished with dividing the base ratio (250%/112% / 6) and having to tard wrangle 6 people to effectively cooperate by not only playing together effectively in zoom zoom game while having to stick together in view range be punished even further?
The only valid reasoning I've ever heard is that groups don't eat up as many map resources per player.
 

Lone Wolf

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They pool map juicing to the nth degree and run only the most rewarding content. Very little, if any downtime. And most six man groups in the 1% are well oiled machines (eg Empy and Co). They hit lvl 90-100 before anyone else, they hit bosses first and earn massive windfalls that are then invested into metacrafting for insane profits. It's a compounding advantage without any downsides, because when one wins, they all win. You're dividing base ratios, but their rewards are exponential. Making 30c on Day 1 = 1 ex. Making 30c on Day 4 = 0.5 ex. Making 30c on Day 8 = 0.3 ex. They will get tons of ex in the first few days, which they will convert to Mirrors at a good rate, which will be converted into the best possible gear within a few weeks.

In a supply/demand economy, they are kings by virtue of joint enterprise in a sea of sole traders.

Group play shouldn't be a little more punishing (250%-500% monster life for 6 players is stupidly low, considering that at the highest end - bosses - that's 100% more per player, aurabot excepted, whereas with normal mobs that's 50% more, meaning they're easier than for single players, because with 6 (no aurabot) you're talking ~600% damage output), it should be a lot more punishing. Especially because - until they're willing to nerf aurabots in 3.16 or beyond - every one of those parties will rock an aurabot that will boost individual player damage by ~300% and durability by at least that much, meaning all content is trivial in group play, without exception.
 

Lone Wolf

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It's certainly better to use fuse orbs yourself than to trade them into chance orbs or alch orbs.

Only trade for Chaos/Exalts. So, if you've pooled together 2,000 fusings, instead of maybe linking a chest, you can buy it outright with the 5-8 ex you've just earned by selling the fusings in bulk.

...so why don't we do that?

Who knows, honestly. Maybe they don't even see it as an issue, depending on what data they're relying on for the broader economy.
 

Absinthe

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4,062
Just read manifesto.

Glorious changes that were much needed. I think a lot of you think that everyone runs with 6 links. 95% of people run with 5links. The 1% is actually the most hit by those changes not the lower ones.
Back in the early days you built for 5L and 6L was a luxury. But these days anyone can get a 6L and there are all kinds of ways from prophecies to beastcrafting to benchcrafting to divination cards to spamming chance orbs on simple robes in hopes of obtaining a tabula rasa to double corrupting sacrificial garbs in hopes of a shadowstitch.

1. Mana cost went through the roof which means you can't just stack zylion of damage via links because you either will have to let go defense or you will have no mana for that zylion damage.
Back in the closed beta days mana costs and multipliers were far higher too. It never stopped anyone from making high damage monster builds. You mostly ran a clarity aura and some mana regen. If Clarity cost you too much mana, you made it reserve life instead.

These days it's completely lazy shit and all you need is mana leech on attacks and any attack skill will never worry about mana issues again.

For spell builds the laziest way if you need big mana is to get es leech on spells and run eldritch battery doing a life build.

Another fucking lazy solution is to just run an enduring mana flask, but this will actually cost you a flask slot.

Another lazy solution is to just do your spellcasting build, but make it a spell totem build, which will usually boost your DPS nicely while making mana costs a non-issue. For bonus points the Soul Mantle robe (a must have for spell totem builds) gives you the extra spell totem support gem link so you can still get your 6L on with a spell totem on top.

Then there is just doing a blood magic build with the blood magic support gem and using good old life leech and life regen, and that support now gives bonus damage as a neat perk. But wait, you say, a blood magic support costs you damage compared to another support! It doesn't. Any blood magic support build will reserve the shit out of his entire mana pool for even more damage, something you can only afford because you aren't casting with your mana pool. And then there's vaguely more esoteric shit like 6Ling The Covenant and using that to get free blood magic (don't even pay 2x health cost, but no bonus damage) with your skill and lvl15 added chaos damage on top of your 6L.

Comedian style is to get 41% reduced mana cost off of your tree, equip Honourhome to bring yourself up to 60% reduced mana cost, then socket 8 jewels to reduce mana costs by 5% each, and have all your abilities cost 0 mana. You don't really contemplate this shit though unless you are reserving both life and mana to the fullest and using ES as your defense.

Then there is using Lavianga's Spirit or Vaal Clarity so you don't pay any mana costs at all while your pool is nuked, but that's a tad unusual.

And I forgot to mention but Hierophant pays 50% of mana cost without trying and Elementalist regens an extra 1% of max mana pool through Mastermind of Discord.

And then there's going back to Blade Vortex so you don't need to chain cast to do your damage.

And of course minion builds usually don't really care about this either.

Anyway, tons of ways to resolve this, many of them being pretty effortless.

2. Flasks got nuked. This was what 1% played. 95% of other people never cared for flasks and never used them like 1% uses them and always found that mechanic shit since they increased monster desnity.
Increasing monster density was GGG's own stupid shit. But flask builds are not going away from this shit, tbh. There are plenty of ways to ensure you get all the flask charges you need to keep going. The most you're going to see suffering is esoteric high flask effect builds and even then there are ways around it. In fact I can see some ways to go even crazier with flasks thanks to the new flasks and orbs.

3. Major damage buffs from supports got nuked hard. With 6 links we are talking about nearly 60% damage reduction for 5 links it is about 40%.
Sure, but base damage and damage multipliers got raised massively, and there are builds that use unusual supports to do massive damage which have been largely untouched. With the right build, your damage has gone up, not down.

Aside from that when you are doing builds that do over 50 million DPS, going down to say 30 million DPS is functionally meaningless. It still dies in one second. It's the builds that did 700k DPS and now find themselves doing 400k that will suffer.

4. They reduced a lot of sources of move speed. They changed few key items as well nuked from orbit increased movement speed mod on flasks from 20-30% to 6-8%. So that hits hard zoomers and their piano turbo
Nuking the movespeed mod is a pity. What happened is that the movespeed mod came first, the movespeed flask came second, then the superspeed flask was developed, but no one really needed that shit. Controlling movespeed is a good precondition to making positioning matter more, but then you need to control movement skills and monster speed too. That's not really happening here, so it's mostly lazy shit. You can still zoom around maps no problem though. Raider has the easiest time doing this as she zooms with +50% movespeed from her class. Berserker can similarly zoom with over 50 movespeed from rage, not factoring berserk.

Anyway, if movespeed is an issue, I anticipate we'll see a lot more melee builds with massive attack speed flying around maps with Leap Slam again.

5. Curse/elemental aflictions imminities got butchered. 1% main defense was always curse resists and elemental afliction resists now they have to actually hit flaks correctly and curse flasks don't give curse immunities.
No they don't. The new orbs let you automatically trigger flasks when you get the condition in question, and there are easily plenty of solutions to getting stunned and frozen. Lack of curse immunities will actually be a bit of a hindering factor, at least until people just use stunts to completely ignore curse effect and start pulling shit like Self-Flagellation builds or "Low Life" Coward's Legacy builds.

What that means is that those 1% ters you talk about that "won't feel it only 99% will" actually got hit hard.

1% are the ones that used the most effective combinations of supports which means they are the most affected by damage nerfs
1% are the ones who played flasks piano the most and got huge buffs due to that. They are the one hit the most by it.
1% are the ones stacked move speed the most for that zoom zoom, with flasks nerfs turbo is reduced a lot
1% are the ones who got imminities for everything, now they won't and will have to deal with what 95% of people deal.

Yes 1% are still 1% who will still be at the top but the gap between 1% and 99% of rest got much much much narrower. On other hand 1% won't be able to just one shot everything and have constantly up megadefences normal people won't be able to even think up.
But a lot of the opposite is happening, dude. When the best supports get nerfed, the best players will stop using them and switch to other supports and tactics that aren't as penalized. When the best flask tricks get nerfed, they will resort to other flask tricks. When movespeed gets wrecked, they will use other ways to get their movespeed fix or zoom around maps with movement abilities. Theoretical damage maybe goes down, but bosses still drop instantly. Meanwhile the average player isn't that clever and his damage and movement goes down in a much realer sense.

Megadefenses are pretty much unaffected by the current set of changes also.
 

Jason Liang

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So I was checking out the Standard prices on poe ninja, and it seems some of my stash from Legacy league is quite valuable now. I'm a little confused by my relic Cloak of Defiance though. I know that Cloak of Defiance is (was) pretty useful, but I'm confused why the relic version which has flat + mana regen% is worth more than the current version which has 1% total mana regen. Also I see on poe trade that some people were able to update their Cloak to the new values (300-400%) and still keeping the flat mana regen, but is that with a divine orb? I thought that diving would also replace the flat + mana regen% with the 1% total mana regen. So I'm not sure whether I should div the Cloak of Defiance or not.

poe-2021-008.jpg
 
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Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Which mods are kept and which aren't is usually detailed whenever they nerf/buff a unique. In this case it should only update the es/ev% and max mana, and not the mana regen value as that one is an entirely different mod than what it now is. Cloak of Defiance underwent a bunch of nerfs and then they later made it even stronger than it initially was.

From a build PoV, I actually don't understand why people would want manaregen% over x% mana regen, as the latter is scaled by the former. Manaregen% is easy to get on gear, in particular rings, while x% manaregen is something that is reserved to a handful of uniques and ascendancy notes (notably essence glutton, which is still broken as fuck for agnostic builds). There might be some edge cases however where you would prefer the manaregen%, its just that all Cloak of Defiance builds I've ran in the past much preferred the x% mana regen instead.
 

Perkel

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Absinthe just because 1% will change into something else it doesn't mean they will be able to play like they did before.

For example you talk about curse/elemental ailments is actualy wrong.

Previously: curse resist + elemental ailment resist 24/7 + some strong flasks along with it that boost defense or attack into stratosphere.
in 3.15 : No curse 24/7 no elemental ailment 24/7 and those boost got nerfed hard

In other words they completely changed flasks. And above doesn't count even charges rework as you get a lot less charges now.

Skills themselves got buff but supports were trashed which means the gap between best support and worst got closer to each other which benefits mainly lower tier players not 1%.
 

Jaedar

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.. it's certainly not that hard to either find a 6L from a vaal side area (I found 3 in the two weeks that I played of Ultimatum league) or just spam Fuses (you can get 1-2 6L with a little luck spamming all the fuses you find).
While it is not that hard to get a 6L from a vaal side area (if you pop a fragment into the map device you'll probably get one every 10 areas maybe?), it's fairly unlikely you'll get one with the correct socket colors. And trying to fix those will be absurdly expensive unless it's a base with the correct stat requirements (and even then It'll probably cost you 10 vaal orbs or so). And your odds of getting the correct base item aren't amazing.

I'm pretty sure that spamming fuses is the correct way to make your own 6L if you can't/won't run vaal side areas until you get what you want, at least in SSF. But it will frequently cost 1000+ fusings. The crafting recipe is probabilistically more expensive when you take quality into account. Before you start spamming fusings, you should try to get the hillock quality craft, and crafting bench + quality, this way you can get like 40% quality which helps a lot.
Aside from that when you are doing builds that do over 50 million DPS, going down to say 30 million DPS is functionally meaningless. It still dies in one second. It's the builds that did 700k DPS and now find themselves doing 400k that will suffer.
Yeah, and my poor builds that were doing 200k damage and are now doing 120k.
Megadefenses are pretty much unaffected by the current set of changes also.
Probably true, but my survivability will suffer a lot from loss of access to +3000 armour 100% increased armour flasks. I also think I'll have to consider curse maps as the equivalent of reflect, ie 100% reroll.
 

Absinthe

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Absinthe just because 1% will change into something else it doesn't mean they will be able to play like they did before.

For example you talk about curse/elemental ailments is actualy wrong.

Previously: curse resist + elemental ailment resist 24/7 + some strong flasks along with it that boost defense or attack into stratosphere.
Most of those got nerfed, yes, but not all.

in 3.15 : No curse 24/7 no elemental ailment 24/7 and those boost got nerfed hard
You can still do all of that though. It takes more investment, but it's very possible. 24/7 elemental ailment avoidance can still be achieved in a large number of ways, but really all you want is something like freeze and shock immunity and that's easily doable. If your dex > int > str, then a Cyclopean Coil will give you immunity to both. Curse is going to be the real obstacle if you don't feel like wearing Atziri's Reflection or playing a Guardian for 24-7 immunity, but that really doesn't matter if you just make a stupid flask that removes curses and triggers instantly whenever you are cursed thanks to the new trigger flask orbs. It's very very easy to make a flask that will de-curse you instantly whenever you get cursed.

In other words they completely changed flasks. And above doesn't count even charges rework as you get a lot less charges now.
If you're hard-up for flask charges and cannot be bothered investing into any of the many ways of drastically increasing your flask charge generation or flask duration, including just wearing a decent belt, just throw in Overflowing Chalice and use the new Enkindling Orb to either give them something like +90% duration or +50% flask effect.

Skills themselves got buff but supports were trashed which means the gap between best support and worst got closer to each other which benefits mainly lower tier players not 1%.
No, lower tier players will suffer more. Top tier players can still crank out builds that overkill endgame bosses in 1 second, which leaves them functionally unimpeded. Lower tier players will experience real losses in damage, survival, and clear speed, by contrast.

While it is not that hard to get a 6L from a vaal side area (if you pop a fragment into the map device you'll probably get one every 10 areas maybe?), it's fairly unlikely you'll get one with the correct socket colors. And trying to fix those will be absurdly expensive unless it's a base with the correct stat requirements (and even then It'll probably cost you 10 vaal orbs or so). And your odds of getting the correct base item aren't amazing.

I'm pretty sure that spamming fuses is the correct way to make your own 6L if you can't/won't run vaal side areas until you get what you want, at least in SSF. But it will frequently cost 1000+ fusings. The crafting recipe is probabilistically more expensive when you take quality into account. Before you start spamming fusings, you should try to get the hillock quality craft, and crafting bench + quality, this way you can get like 40% quality which helps a lot.
Spamming fuses is a gamble and doing the benchcrafting recipe is a more reliable way if you have to have your 6L. But actually you can just farm aqueducts for divination cards for a Tabula Rasa. Later on you can also farm vault maps for Immortal Resolve divination cards that give you Fated Connections prophecy if you want.

But yes, vaal side areas and vaaling strongboxes is a way to get easy 6Ls.

Yeah, and my poor builds that were doing 200k damage and are now doing 120k.
That is going to fucking suck. You need to play higher damage builds, dude. What the hell are you playing?

Probably true, but my survivability will suffer a lot from loss of access to +3000 armour 100% increased armour flasks.
You can always go Iron Reflexes and stack both Granite and Jade flasks with maybe a Basalt flask on top. But mostly stacking physical damage reduction is the way to go imo. If you're not going to cheese armor, it's typically better to not use it at all, owing to the shitty way armor interacts with high damage attacks.

I also think I'll have to consider curse maps as the equivalent of reflect, ie 100% reroll.
Dealing with constant curses is a bit more annoying. Laziest solution is to just equip Atziri's Reflection, which is pretty good with Coward's Legacy for low life abuse. Another solution is to just get 3x Numbing Elixir notables and use Enduring Hybrid Flasks, thus making you unaffected by all curses and elemental ailments in a single flask and always maintaining your enduring hybrid flasks. This has the side-effect of also solving any mana regeneration issues your build has at the same time while giving you a lot of life recovery. Aside from that though you are looking at shit like 2x Kikizaru + Sanctum of Thought but then you can at least go to town with Self-Flagellation Soul Mantle spell totem builds.
 
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Jaedar

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It's very very easy to make a flask that will de-curse you instantly whenever you get cursed.
We don't really know how common the flask currency will be. Afaik the curse removal also no longer gives any curse immunity at all, so there's a very real chance you will run out of charges if you don't clear everything super fast. And it obviously doesn't help against map mod curses which was the primary use of curse removal/immunity before.
But actually you can just farm aqueducts for divination cards for a Tabula Rasa. Later on you can also farm vault maps for Immortal Resolve divination cards that give you Fated Connections prophecy if you want.
Farming for tabula seems easy and pretty fast, never heard of farming vault maps before.

That is going to fucking suck. You need to play higher damage builds, dude. What the hell are you playing?
Home-brewed off meta stuff in SSF :M

You can always go Iron Reflexes and stack both Granite and Jade flasks with maybe a Basalt flask on top. But mostly stacking physical damage reduction is the way to go imo. If you're not going to cheese armor, it's typically better to not use it at all, owing to the shitty way armor interacts with high damage attacks.
There is truth to this, but well, iron reflexes is often quite far away on the tree, and I find that ~10k armor is still pretty helpful against trash mob attacks even if it does basically nothing against boss attacks.
 

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