Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Savegame limitations?

Should there be any savegame limitations in RPG games?


  • Total voters
    131
  • Poll closed .

otsego

Cipher
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
229
Games are about having fun
then use cheat engine
this same exact argument can be used to include any stupid shit in a game that someone happens to find "fun"

This is totally incorrect. The game establishes the rules and boundaries and the player has fun working within those boundaries. Using a cheat engine goes outside of those boundaries, which of course is also fun otherwise the cheats wouldn't exist, but is an extra once you've had time with the boundaries already established.

Who wants to start off any game with the ability to fly across mountains and kill enemies with a single blow? No one. Until they've already played it 'normally' several times over.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Games are about having fun
then use cheat engine
this same exact argument can be used to include any stupid shit in a game that someone happens to find "fun"

This is totally incorrect. The game establishes the rules and boundaries and the player has fun working within those boundaries. Using a cheat engine goes outside of those boundaries, which of course is also fun otherwise the cheats wouldn't exist, but is an extra once you've had time with the boundaries already established.

Who wants to start off any game with the ability to fly across mountains and kill enemies with a single blow? No one. Until they've already played it 'normally' several times over.
So you're saying that saving is indeed part of the game's rules and therefore games are balanced around the idea that players will savescum?
Thanks.
 

otsego

Cipher
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
229
So you're saying that saving is indeed part of the game's rules and therefore games are balanced around the idea that players will savescum?
Thanks.

Yes and no. I understand the argument of 'well if you always want the best outcome why not just put on a cheat that guarantees it', but sometimes you don't always want that outcome and the (save) system lets you choose it, which allows for some variation within the boundaries of the game as you want to play it. I don't see that as inherently bad, though I'd still argue games that are so random that they actively encourage save-scumming have some design issues.

Rogue-likes aside.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
So you're saying that saving is indeed part of the game's rules and therefore games are balanced around the idea that players will savescum?
Thanks.

Yes and no. I understand the argument of 'well if you always want the best outcome why not just put on a cheat that guarantees it', but sometimes you don't always want that outcome and the (save) system lets you choose it, which allows for some variation within the boundaries of the game as you want to play it. I don't see that as inherently bad, though I'd still argue games that are so random that they actively encourage save-scumming have some design issues.

Rogue-likes aside.
Games never design routes other than success ones because they know cheaters(AKA casuals/codexers) will just savescum everytime they fail.
 

otsego

Cipher
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
229
Games never design routes other than success ones because they know cheaters(AKA casuals/codexers) will just savescum everytime they fail.

Agreed that designers don't plan for routes of failure (for the most part). Disagree that savescumming is the reason for this design. If that was true then there would be no failure at all. Problem is even if they give an option of failure, there is no interesting outcome other than you lose something. Which also isn't inherently bad. But a casual does not like failing to get the cookie at the end of the trail.
 
Last edited:

zwanzig_zwoelf

Graverobber Foundation
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
3,084
Location
デゼニランド
You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Imagine an RPG where part of the fun is not killing the enemies ('cause they'll savescum), but crushing their will to fight (i.e. making them ragequit instead).
 

Can't handle the bacon

Guest
  • 'Bad' outcomes should have some upside.
  • 'Good' outcomes should have some downside.
  • Some downsides / upsides should be revealed much later on.
Ah, yes, let's turn every choice into a Russian roulette that results in things that no sane person could have predicted. Did you say "Be more confident" to a guy in the early game? Too bad, now you can never remove the curse from the undead witch-queen in the consumed elven ruins. Butterfly effect, amirite? Lulz.
 

Can't handle the bacon

Guest
27648.jpg
 

Azdul

Magister
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
3,328
Location
Langley, Virginia
  • 'Bad' outcomes should have some upside.
  • 'Good' outcomes should have some downside.
  • Some downsides / upsides should be revealed much later on.
Ah, yes, let's turn every choice into a Russian roulette that results in things that no sane person could have predicted. Did you say "Be more confident" to a guy in the early game? Too bad, now you can never remove the curse from the undead witch-queen in the consumed elven ruins. Butterfly effect, amirite? Lulz.
You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.
You've acquired something valuable through deception and lies - people will be more careful when making business with you.
You've got caught stealing - NPC will be more likely to offer you lucrative illegal job.

The quest results should not be just +1000 XP, +500 GP. Not everyone will be happy about your heroic deeds. For example - saving heir to the throne is the worst thing that could happen for the guy next in succession line.
 

Can't handle the bacon

Guest
You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.
And if I defeat a high level boss through expensive tactics and wear his shiny armor - people won't notice it and won't try to steal it for themselves?
 

lukaszek

the determinator
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
12,618
You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.
And if I defeat a high level boss through expensive tactics and wear his shiny armor - people won't notice it and won't try to steal it for themselves?
alternative is oblivion: use expensive tactics to obtain mithril armor only to be mugged by some ruffian with glass set
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,182
Location
Bjørgvin
You are lvl 20 in Oblivion and Ambrose the Robber Kitten in full glass armour demands 10 gold from you or death.

EDIT: ninjaed by a determined poster.
 

Pentium

Learned
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
129
Location
Socket 5
You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Imagine an RPG where part of the fun is not killing the enemies ('cause they'll savescum), but crushing their will to fight (i.e. making them ragequit instead).
NPCKill()
{
if(NPCDeaths > 1000)
{
instaSpawn = false;
NPCSay ("Fuck you, bitch! Eat shit n kill ur mom n rape ur grandpa, anus fisting mothafucka nigger!");​
}
else
NPCDeaths++;​
}
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
You've defeated a high level boss through cheap tactics and now you wear his shiny armor - people will notice it and may want to steal it for themselves.

Are you implying that more xp and loot is somehow a bad thing? Bro, do you even RPG?
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,083
Location
Bulgaria
You know what would be interesting? Allowing the computer opponents to savescum.

Cool. Now we need to invent a way to have computer opponents buy games, and we're set.
Looking at the world at this moment....i wouldn't be surprised if that happens. We do have bullshit magic coins like bitcoin and endless growth muh economy delusions,so it sounds pretty rational compared to that shit lol.
 

Azdul

Magister
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
3,328
Location
Langley, Virginia
Are you implying that more xp and loot is somehow a bad thing? Bro, do you even RPG?
RPG is more fun when DM is an asshole.

Low level player should suspect that the invisibility ring with infinite charges was clearly intended for someone more powerful. And player won't resist the temptation of using it to get out of embarassing social situation.

At this point it does not matter that you have a save just before acquiring the ring. You'll stick to your choice and try to take advantage of poor Nazguls pathfinding - to get to the ferry before them.
 

Sinatar

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
569
The developers may be confident enough in their game's stability that they think it won't crash in between save spots.

I'm not so confident. Fuck your console gimmicky save systems and just let me save the fucking game when and where I want. If some tryhard wants to go ironman and have some save limitations there is nothing stopping them from doing that.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom