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Dark Forces is still the best Star Wars shooter

Ash

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It's worrying that due to the majority of consumers being kids who grew up with consoles, there is a kind of event horizon around the year 2000 before which nothing existed, so a lot of modern lists and recommendations just don't include anything from PC, and begin with really over-rated PS2 games.

Uh… yeah. Welcome to the Codex.

While the point still stands (sort of)....

...bro:

ps1_star_wars_dark_forces_p_vq3r7w.jpg

The event horizon applies to 90s/old games in general. That includes console gaming. That was THIRTY years ago now. Only the most obsessed of gamers actually know the history and the good shit. There's a fuckton of good console games from the 90s too, but all that the callbacks honor is the most declined: Goldeneye/Chrono Trigger/Halo and other average to terrible shit. People that don't know their shit vastly outnumber the people that do know their shit. This is natural but frustrating.

Also you speak of console gaming like you didn't grow up with one. Pretty sad I have to say, as someone that grew up with both PCs and consoles. Imagine being completely ignorant of well over half of the games ever made and yet acting like you have special esoteric knowledge. Some irony that.
 
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udm

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On this topic, the biggest tragedy from Disney's acquisition is that canonically, Katarn's no longer known as the badass who stole the Death Star plans. That still makes me :negative: whenever I think about it. I've never seen Rogue One so I can't comment about its quality, but I grew up with Kyle Katarn :( :( :(

Yeah, yeah, I know, 'fuck canon' and all that. But it's still a shame this generation will never know the pure badassery of EU heroes like Katarn.
 

thesheeep

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I've never seen Rogue One so I can't comment about its quality
It's pretty good. Easily the best of the newer SW movies - although that is obviously a low bar, but it's miles ahead of the others IMO.

It's impossible to hit freaking anything

the only gun for which this is remotely true is the blaster rifle, and in jedi academy you can get 100% precision with it by activating force sight
Too bad the blaster rifle is what you'll be using for the biggest portion of the game (until you get the light saber). Well, that and the pistol, which is only mildly more in line with what the crosshair shows.
Go ahead and record yourself shooting at storm troopers moving around with it WITHOUT emptying entire clips to land a few hits, then I'll believe you :lol:

Curious about the force sight. I don't think I used it a single time in my recent playthrough - good to know there's actually a point to it beyond cheesing.
 

Darth Roxor

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Too bad the blaster rifle is what you'll be using for the biggest portion of the game (until you get the light saber). Well, that and the pistol, which is only mildly more in line with what the crosshair shows.

The blaster pistol has pinpoint precision. The blaster rifle is awkward and requires getting used to, but can be used with accuracy as long as you don't spam alt-fire like stupid.

Go ahead and record yourself shooting at storm troopers moving around with it WITHOUT emptying entire clips to land a few hits, then I'll believe you :lol:

I'm afraid I can't be bothered to dance for your amusement. All I can say is that I finished both Outcast and Academy with guns only. Twice. Also killed all the bosses with guns, including Kyle in the Academy dark side ending.
 

Cyberarmy

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
DF2 was the best shit I played back then. I was pretty addicted to it and tried many different "builds" for boss fights. They sure not making games like they were used to...

:love:
 

thesheeep

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The blaster pistol has pinpoint precision.
No, it doesn't.
It quite literally does not hit its mark unless that mark is very far away. The cursor changes colors to tell the player that you will now be shooting at an enemy, but press fire and you still won't hit most of the time (again, unless very far away) - and I'm not talking about moving enemies.
The crosshair only "works" on faraway enemies, otherwise I imagine you'd actually be better off without it as it won't give you a wrong prediction.
I don't know if you just got nostalgia goggles on, but I played it just about two weeks ago or so. I'm not that forgetful. Yet.

All I can say is that I finished both Outcast and Academy with guns only. Twice. Also killed all the bosses with guns, including Kyle in the Academy dark side ending.
Late game weapons are actually pretty decent. And most of them have very large projectiles / explosions, so the early game aiming issues no longer apply.
I can believe the shooting would get better later on - but at that point you got jedi powers and a light saber, so WTF are you doing?!
 

zapotec

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I have read here some great things about repubblic commando so i bought it on GOG and it's damn terrible.
XBOX era corridor shooter with 4 weapons, health sponge enemies and nothing else.
 

udm

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I have read here some great things about repubblic commando so i bought it on GOG and it's damn terrible.
XBOX era corridor shooter with 4 weapons, health sponge enemies and nothing else.

Heh and I thought I was the only one who didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. I wouldn't say it's terrible, but it's very average IMO. Tolerable but nothing very special. It felt like I was playing a Star Wars-themed Cowadoody or Rainbow Six Vegas.
 

Louis_Cypher

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I played through the entire series again just recently (Dark Forces I + II, Jedi Outcast & Academy).

One thing that many people tend to forget is how atrociously bad the actual FPS gameplay is in Outcast & Academy.
It's impossible to hit freaking anything, the crosshair has no bearing on where a shot would land. Instead the shot will go from the actual "exit" of your gun towards some point in the distance where the crosshair would be.
I consider myself good at FPS games, but I can't hit shit in the Jedi Knight games.
Absolutely awkward and the forums are full of people who began doubting their own sanity and thought they had lost all skill before realizing that others also can't hit shit in those games.

Absolutely agree. There was a lot of problems in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.

I played again recently, and the Quake III engine made me feel sick, probably due to viewbob and high framerates.

It also felt less like Star Wars than Dark Forces II by miles; I think the art style was a step down from that.

I tend to replay the first two and skip all the Quake III engine ones.

What are your cons for the Republic Commando being worse than DF?

I don't want to criticise RC, just love DF more. Republic Commando is the next best Star Wars shooter, after Dark Force I and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, for sure, but has weak points. I still prefer Dark Forces however, just because of the atmosphere, scope and suggestiveness of the art. Like on the planet Fest, just as a small example, you really feel like you have been dropped alone into a rocky crevasse world by the Mouldy Crow. Speaking of which, you visit 11 planets, and 3 starships in Dark Forces I, compared to 2 planets and 1 starship in Republic Commando. Most worlds in Dark Forces are brand new, never seen before. Whereas both Genonosis and Kashyyyk appear in the films, places like Talay, Anoat, Fest, etc, were expanding the setting in new directions, perhaps having been mentioned in books before if at all. At the time Star Wars had never shown a city like Talay's, or Anoat's. Here is the list off Wookieepedia:
Also you speak of console gaming like you didn't grow up with one.

Yep, I still regret it. I had an old PC, usually one step behind whatever was current. I was very late to consoles, and had to return to older games, years later; having spent years sometimes pouring over them at friend's houses, or seeing adverts or games magazines. I had a demo disk of Dark Forces and used to play the first Death Star plan mission over and over. At the time my friends would be playing stuff like Syphon Filter on their PS1, and I just had a low end PC + Gameboy, but accidentally played a couple of real classics like UFO: Enemy Unknown, The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, and Star Trek: Judgement Rites. Fast forward and I've completed about 220 games since 2009, going back to DOS stuff on PC, right up to PS4, but it took a while to realise that most of my wishlist was not worth the hours of effort; I know what I really like now.
 

Darth Roxor

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I don't know if you just got nostalgia goggles on, but I played it just about two weeks ago or so. I'm not that forgetful. Yet.

I played it a year ago and what you are saying is patently false. The blaster pistol is the second most accurate gun in the game barring the disruptor, and it's effective at all ranges. The blaster rifle is awkward and so is the bowcaster, because they have varying spread depending on fire mode, so you can miss with them easily at med-long range, but I can't imagine how you can miss "most of the time" with the blaster pistol. It has no spread. The projectile flies in a straight line. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that it travels at a slight angle from the gun model towards the centre of the crosshair (which is true for all the guns in the game), so you won't shoot a guy in the head at point blank (you'll hit him in the body instead), but otherwise...
 

BrotherFrank

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It would be so easy, re-canonizing the plot by altering a couple of lines of text.

Alas would take a lot more then editing a few lines to make this game let alone the whole dark forces series fit into nu disney cannon.

-rogue one makes it impossible kyle had anything to do with the DS plans
-darktroopers have been reintroduced by disney and their production timeline is now independent of kyles actions, we have been seeing proto darktroopers as early as the clone wars so you’d have to rewrite the entire game plot.
-dark troopers will still be in use by the time of the mandalorian set long after ROTJ so kyle cannot succeed in his mission.
-kyle fated to die a lame death if we continue the games into jedi knight, destined to die to kylo ren or one of his goons.

In a way though, I prefer dark forces to be part of the EU rather then associate it with disneys fail.
 

HansDampf

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I've played DF, DF2 and Outcast, and I like all of them. But DF2 is my favorite for mainly two reasons.
1) Non-linear progression with force powers. The levels are all designed that you can beat them without force powers. But if you put lots of stars in speed and jump early on, you can take shortcuts and reach areas you otherwise wouldn't be able to reach.
2) The game is so fast-paced. Even without force speed Kyle's running speed is pretty high. With 4 stars it's almost ridiculous. You run so fast that you can kill yourself by running into walls. Fun game.
 

DeepOcean

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Go ahead and record yourself shooting at storm troopers moving around with it WITHOUT emptying entire clips to land a few hits, then I'll believe you :lol:
To be fair this is more consistent with the movies, that way you learn why the stormtroopers have such a poor aiming.:lol:

It isnt that bad once you get used to it, I found the lower projectile speed strange at first but as I learned to time the shots with the stormtrooper rifle, I barely noticed it anymore.
 

Louis_Cypher

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Just want to mention something; out of all the more modern non-KOTOR post-2000 stuff that came out of LucasArts, it was a PS2 game, Star Wars: Bounty Hunter, that probably made the most effort to introduce new locations and planets to explore. The game has a lot of problems, that is for sure, but at least made the effort to for example, visit a prison colony, and shows the origin of Jango Fett acquiring Slave I. I wouldn't recommend it for the gameplay, but if you are a lore obsessive, it's about as lore rich as say Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire.

I have read here some great things about repubblic commando so i bought it on GOG and it's damn terrible.
XBOX era corridor shooter with 4 weapons, health sponge enemies and nothing else.

g7FdhqE.png


WhisperedThankfulGeese-max-1mb.gif


Yes, I was going to say this, but didn't want to step on anyone's childhood memory or anything. The standard Clone Trooper DC15-A blaster rifle's plasma slug is depicted in the movies killing things like B2 battle droids in one or two hits. You control no less than four Clone Commandos (special forces akin to Navy SEALs), armed with advanced DC17-M blaster rifles, and they literally have to keep shooting everything for seconds straight on full automatic to kill even a basic droid. It's still the best newer shooter, and best Clone Wars era experience, but has problems.

Alas would take a lot more then editing a few lines to make this game let alone the whole dark forces series fit into nu disney cannon.

-rogue one makes it impossible kyle had anything to do with the DS plans
-darktroopers have been reintroduced by disney and their production timeline is now independent of kyles actions, we have been seeing proto darktroopers as early as the clone wars so you’d have to rewrite the entire game plot.
-dark troopers will still be in use by the time of the mandalorian set long after ROTJ so kyle cannot succeed in his mission.
-kyle fated to die a lame death if we continue the games into jedi knight, destined to die to kylo ren or one of his goons.

This is relatively easy to write away, you should see what they have done to Star Trek.

1). - Kyle no longer stole the Death Star plans, but something related, like it's place of construction
2). - Newer model Dark Troopers were developed again differently later during the Empire
3). - Kyle quits the Jedi Order before Kylo Ren destroys it, becoming a grumpy merc

However you are right that Disney would probably just screw with Kyle Katarn today.
 

thesheeep

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but I can't imagine how you can miss "most of the time" with the blaster pistol. It has no spread.
It doesn't, no.
But it doesn't go where the crosshair points, either - again, unless the distance is very large. I do know the games offer a dynamic crosshair as well, which takes this weird ass firing mode into consideration, but I found the constant wobbling around of the crosshair VERY distracting and also - it doesn't work. Again, especially at closer distances, even that dynamic crosshair is STILL off.

I'm not arguing that you couldn't get used to the bullshit.
But the idea that your arm/hand position and rotation is completely fixed and you couldn't possibly turn a weapon in a way that would actually shoot at where the crosshair is, and instead you have to adjust your entire posture, well, that just IS bullshit.

If I play an FPS, and the FPS gives me a crosshair, then I expect the shot fucking ends up where the crosshair points (plus possible spread). No matter the distance (unless extremely close).
Bravo on you if you can on the fly determine where a shot will end up based on the angle of the weapon, its position and the distance to your crosshair. I couldn't. And based on all the comments on this throughout the years, it seems almost everyone else hates it as well...

Go ahead and record yourself shooting at storm troopers moving around with it WITHOUT emptying entire clips to land a few hits, then I'll believe you :lol:
To be fair this is more consistent with the movies, that way you learn why the stormtroopers have such a poor aiming.:lol:
Funny thing, when I showed my GF how absurdly bad the gun handling is with the starting weapons (as in, just showcasing where the crosshair is and where the shot goes instead), she actually tried to argue with me that it might be on purpose to achieve the Stormtrooper Effect.

Which, well... I couldn't really refute :lol:
It would be pretty damn amazing if they made the shooting crap on purpose.


On a completely different note, though, the Jedi Knight games might have some of the most effective AI positioning/movement in combat.
Not because they would be clever. No.
Because they are changing position rapidly and (I'm fairly certain) totally at random - I don't think you can predict at all where troopers will move or when. At least on Hard.
Which honestly makes an interesting point on the usage of randomness in battlefield tactics, IMO.
 
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HansDampf

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Funny thing, when I showed my GF how absurdly bad the gun handling is with the starting weapons (as in, just showcasing where the crosshair is and where the shot goes instead), she actually tried to argue with me that it might be on purpose to achieve the Stormtrooper Effect.

Which, well... I couldn't really refute :lol:
It would be pretty damn amazing if they made the shooting crap on purpose.
It's the most frustrating part of Outcast, holding down the alt-fire button and watch 90% of your shots somehow warp around Stormtroopers. Just use TDs instead.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Switched to DF2 today and completed 1st level. I needed a while to get used to the mouse up/down movement.
DF2 has separate control screens for different mouse axes. And yeah, the vertical is reverted by default for some reason. You need to make sure you go to each screen, set it properly, save and you will have standard fps controls.
 

Morpheus Kitami

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I think part of what made Jedi Knight (DF2) great were the cheesy live action scenes. They were just so dorky and tied everything together. "The Dark Side? I've been there! Do your worst."
Its one of the few games where removing the live-action cutscenes would make the game worse. It actually enhanced the experience, as opposed to games centered around it or games where it didn't really matter if they were live-action or not. It was actually like playing a movie.
It would have been nice to get a none Force Powers Star Wars FPS like Mace Griffin Bounty Hunter. That games transitions from space to ground combat is something they haven't done in a Star Wars game even still, at least the way it goes about doing it where you can walk around in your spaceship; given how big a deal the Millennium Falcon and Han Solo are to Star Wars you'd kind of things this would've happened by now, especially since someone already did it in 2003.
IIRC, the Battlefront games sort of did this with ship-boarding, which I remember being OP as crap. The portable titles actually included that, but I don't think that's what you had in mind?
 
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Yeah, you could do that in Battlefront 2 too, although the presentation of it is different and Griffin is a more standard single player game.

I guess I'd say Mace Griffin had a more complete feeling version of it, it's all fleshed out more. In that you've got a larger ship than an X-Wing or something, so you can actually just walk around in it, and you can leave the pilot seat while you're flying around. There's other stuff that does this kind of thing, like Star Citizen, and the Cyclops sub in Subnautica, but Mace Griffin was the first time I really remember seeing something like that presented in that manner so that's the one I just always kind of jump to...it's also a little older of a game than the Battlefront series.

 
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AW8

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I have read here some great things about repubblic commando so i bought it on GOG and it's damn terrible.
XBOX era corridor shooter with 4 weapons, health sponge enemies and nothing else.
There is something else: Incredible atmosphere and music.

The gameplay may be mediocre, with slow movement, bullet sponge boss enemies and non-existant tactical choices for your squad.

But Jesus Christ, the atmosphere in that game is top notch. It really feels like you're fighting a gritty war far away from the big name Jedi. Droids aren't goofy, boss enemies are threatening and your visor wipes away blood from foes that are killed at point-blank range. It's weird how this game was based not only on the prequels, but on Attack of the Clones, often regarded as the worst movie before the sequels happened.

Your squadmates have so many different lines reacting to stuff around them and to your orders, like being puzzled when you order them to heal and then call it off, or when you knock yourself out with your own grenade ("Are you sure we're all cloned from the same template?"). Giving them unique voice actors is cheating but eh, the whole idea of clone troopers is stupid in the first place.

You should have watched gameplay on Youtube before purchasing (type in "[GAME NAME] longplay" and go about a third into the video to see what the gameplay is like). Your reaction would have been "what is this, an early 2000's console shooter back when developers thought players were retarded?" and it would have been absolutely right.

Also, you forgot the alien weapons you pick up from enemies: The shotgun, the heavy machine gun, the SMG, the flamethrower, the rocket launcher, the concussion rifle and the bowcaster. That makes it 11 weapons and 4 grenade types.
 

Louis_Cypher

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Last time I played Dark Forces, I was using DarkXL. There were some areas of the late game that couldn't be completed. Now the Force Engine 1.0 makes Dark Forces fully playable, start to finish, with modern aiming as standard; a complete game changer. I couldn't resist playing it again, it's great, and each new playthrough adds to my appreciation of the game.

Lets take a look at the first three levels for anyone who has never played Dark Forces but is interested in the best Star Wars shooter, and amongst the finest of all Star Wars games (along with it's masterpiece sequel). I'm hesitant to spoil the experience, it's best to stop reading and simply play the game. Some people however may have foregone the experience, because they consider Doom-era games intimidatingly old, either graphically or mechanically. Hopefully this introduction will alleviate those concerns. Games of this era often contained exceptional art design, and are forgiving enough for anyone, at any skill level, to enjoy without hoarding ammo. LucasArts were known for their amazing art, and the game is certainly one of their finest. It is not graphically archaic where it really matters, i.e. design; featuring suggestive imaginative environments. With modern aiming in the Force Engine, it also plays like a dream.

The environments tell a story of wider processes and their spartan design fits the Star Wars aesthetic. During trips to mining facilities you may share tunnels with ore processing facilities, giant drills for extracting fuel/ore from a planet's crust. You may find yourself exploring distant outposts, alien sewers, or prisons built into the side of rocky canyons of remote worlds.


Mission 01 - Planet: Danuta | Imperial Base

64BdELW.png


You are Kyle Katarn, a mercenary, former member of the Imperial military, currently working for the Rebel Alliance. Your personal starship is the Mouldy Crow, a Corellian HWK-290 light freighter. Your sidearm of choice is the Bryar pistol, a popular modification done to Bryar rifles, where the stock and muzzle are sawed off.

qs8n2L3.png


Senator Mon Mothma, founder of the Rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic gives you the critical mission to steal the plans to the Empire's new Death Star superweapon. A copy is being held at an Imperial base on Danuta. Perhaps your mission runs alongside the parallel attempt to find the Death Star's plans at the Battle of Scarif.

T2YOvcE.png


The base is staffed with Imperial Officers (in brown uniforms with rank insignia), Imperial Navy Troopers (the marines in black uniforms with helmets), and Stormtroopers (in white body armour). We can safely assume this is an Imperial Navy facility, due to the presence of marines, and a lack of Imperial Army units. Kyle quickly picks up a standard E-11 blaster rifle from a dead marine and begins to explore the facility.

tH5i2Ae.png


Eventually Kyle acquires the plans for the Death Star on a physical storage drive, from within a shielded room deep in the facility. Having defeated the Imperial garrison, the beautiful sight of the Mouldy Crow greets Kyle on the roof of the facility, as he prepares to return to the Rebels with news of his success.


Mission 02 - Planet: Talay | Rebel Base

K7g24B7.png


Some time has passed since the destruction of the Death Star at Yavin IV. An unknown new Imperial weapon, frighteningly precise in complete antithesis to the terror-based military doctrine of the Death Star, has attacked and wiped out an entire Rebel Base on Talay. A type of new Stormtrooper, highly specialised, which can deploy at a moment's notice from space; the Dark Trooper. This is the true campaign of Dark Forces. The now legendary Dark Trooper program, has begun, and you must infiltrate Imperial planets to end it! First you must investigate the destruction of an entire Rebel facility; Tak Base, at Talay in the Mid Rim.

bWr9rKC.png


Kyle's scouting of the surface reveals the site of a massacre. Some scattered Imperial units remain to guard the site. Blaster shots consistent with Imperial weapons mark the walls, and the burned corpses of the base's inhabitants can be seen strewn around the streets of the small settlement. Houses are destroyed, partially burned out. Whatever type of soldier did this is capable of lauching surgical attacks on the Rebel Alliance. The overwhealming force of the Tarkin Doctrine has failed; now the empire will turn to highly focused raids. What are these new units, a special forces soldier, or a type of advanced battle droid?

eB7KT3g.png


Reactivating the base's hydroelectric power generator, Kyle is able to cross an aqeduct or river running through the base, to gather evidence of the Dark Trooper presense, and it's technical disposition. An Imperial repeater rifle, the weapon of the Dark Trooper, is found on the base, and returned to the Rebel fleet by Kyle; a huge intelligence victory for the Rebellion.


Mission 03 - Planet: Anoat | Anoat City

C58XdaY.jpg


Anoat is a highly polluted regional industrial hub, also a sector capital, in the Outer Rim. It is in the same solar system as Gentes, the Ugnaut homeworld, a species which many planets use as low paid or forced labourers. The Rebellion's next lead is Moff Rebus, the weapons designer of the Repeater rifle found at Tak Base. Kyle must infiltrate Anoat City, the planetary capital, but when he arrives, he finds the streets largely deserted except for Imperial viper-class probe droids, IT-0 interrogation droids, and other small remotes.

iBBQfIx.jpg


Anoat's crumbling infrastructure consists of sludge-soaked rusting durasteel girders, and a polluted water management system. Moff Rebus is famous for his paranoia, hiding his lab somewhere deep in this sewage system. Infiltration will rely on re-directing the flow of the planet's waste water, using flood gates, until a path is opened to Rebus's underground bunker. However, what Kyle does not count on is the presence of Dianoga. Using IR goggles, he fires his blaster into the waste water, killing a handful of the creatures before proceeding deeper.


Force Engine 1.01

It works right out of the folder, just by clicking the .exe. No key config neccecary. It defaults to standard stuff; [Shift] to run, [Ctrl] to crouch, [Space] to jump, [E] to use doors and switches, [F1] for mission objectives and inventory. Mouselook is just built in, turned on as standard, although I assume it can be turned off if you really want to ignore this massive quality-of-life improvement. No installation neccecary. You literally just unzip it, click the executable, and it will play immeditably, by finding and using the Steam or GOG install. Astounding work to bring a classic to easy compatability, so that no true Star Wars fan must miss it; 10/10 for invaluable service to the Star Wars community.
 
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