Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

EverQuest in detail.

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
AoE groups are still viable and were/are commonly done on the prog servers when they are appropriate.

The first real place to do a group with it is Chardok on Kunark, then Velkators in Velious and maybe some shit on Luclin like there used to be back in the day, but I didn't see any on Phinny.

People kept doing Chardok and Velious until PoP resulted in people out-leveling that content, but with Agnarr new it's just a matter of time before people start trying it again when Kunark releases.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
Yea I did it in lots of places, just gotta avoid mobs that are immune to stun, which ruin it.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
13,998
Location
Platypus Planet
EQ.jpg


cropped-mainpic.gif


2433554-eq_scarsofvelious-sms-0309.jpg


955673-eq_shadowsofluclin_sms_0309.jpg
 
Last edited:

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
Never liked the look of Troll and Ogres in those pics. Always loved the fat and comical look of them from the old game models than the newer ones or those pics that try and make them badass.

Then again I love almost all the old models for much the same reason. They all had personality while the new ones have none at all.

Velious link isn't working btw~
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
This game just released the 25th expansion. I don't recommend it though, the game is pretty bad now. I still recommend p99 emulator though, more or less. Something I don't think came across in my OP is that death and the 'persistent' nature of this game is a big part of what made it so intense. (Or it did in the original game before it got ruined). There is no save game or reload, so when you die you respawn naked, and with a big chunk of experience missing. You have to go and get your corpse back or you lose all of your gear forever... Also even once you get your gear back, you will always have that experience loss which can amount to about 1-3 hours of time lost. At higher levels you can have a priest resurrect you which recovers some or most of this, but for a large part of the game it is unlikely you'll have that option. So dying is really bad... Sounds bad, but all it does is make the whole thing more intense. There are so many things you can learn that help you survive and if you think fast and smart you can win almost every battle, but knowing that so much is at stake if you screw up, changes the whole feel of the game. You can login stoned and just do some crafting or something, but if you are tired or distracted or something, you would want to avoid doing anything challenging or it will likely end badly and give you a big set back. I've never experienced this genuine fear and tension in any other game.

Also there are some things that likely can never be reproduced in gaming ever again... For example, in 1999 when the game started, it would lock the screen and prevent you from alt tabbing. Also the internet was new so there were hardly any useful guides and even when ones did show up, you couldn't alt tab so nobody could use them unless you had 2 computers.

Also there was no map at all in the game. Nowadays there is a main map showing the whole world, but also a minimap which is more like a radar that shows everything nearby. Early EQ had neither of those things. All it had was a basic compass but even that didn't work unless you trained it. The result is that you really needed to explore carefully and be good at keeping your bearings, remembering landmarks etc. So I found a great low level dungeon, but the only way I knew how to get back there in the future, was to leave the village and follow the path until I saw a tree with a hole in it. Then I veer left at a roughly 45 degree angle and run another couple of minutes and look for a statue in the middle of a forest. Once I find the statue, I look for a stream nearby and I can follow that stream and it takes me to the dungeon. To get back to the village I have to run this route again in reverse. Again this changes the whole feel of the game. It was very survival-ish, like being naked in a forest or something, you live and die based on your decisions and how good you are figuring things out.

In other MMOs it is completely different, Everyone has a map, there are waypoints everywhere, you can alt tab and find guides on everything, not to mention them all being generally so easy that you can barely lose anyway. EQ turned into this too over time. RIP the most interesting thing I ever played.
 

Argronok

Literate
Joined
Nov 28, 2018
Messages
11
Sorry for speaking in "Warcraft comparisons" but when it coms to Everquest expansions, which was considered the "Catacylsm" of Everquest in terms of "This was the point of no return for Everquest being a good MMORPG and massive subscriber loss"
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
I think either Planes of Power or the next one, don't quote me on that, though.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
Yeah it had some peaks and troughs especially around Planes of Power and GoD, but it kept hanging in there until 2004. At that point it had 3 millions sales and had an active subscriber peak of 550,000 which was pretty big for the time. But the population started disappearing in 2004 around the time of the Gates of Discord expansion. But this was also when WoW went from beta to full release.

Also EQ was 5 years old at this point and was arguably not evolving fast enough. It has always sucked for new players but at least in the old days there were so many other new players you could find people to play with and learn from. By 2004 there were not many new players, which made it a crappy experience for people checking it out. They also had to put so much development time into catering to the existing players who were now mostly high level and obsessed with raiding. Which meant less stuff for casual players and new players.

Also the graphics were some of the best in gaming in 1999, it required a dedicated 3d graphics card and the character models with armor looked amazing. But in 2004 everything started looking old and they did a bad job of updating it. They made a whole new set of character models that a lot of people hated as it changed the art style, also they were very demanding on the PC and the world graphics improved slightly too. But that was also demanding on the PC. So it could look quite good in 2004 but you needed a high end PC to make it work. Compare all this to WoW which had a very slick newbie experience, had lots of new ideas like PVP arena mode and battlegrounds, had super slick progression, much easier travel, much gentler death penalty, etc. And it all ran on Mom's old netbook. It was cartoony but it was pretty and the animations were as slick as it gets. EQ had no chance really. And instead of doubling down on the more hardcore audience, they tried to dumb down EQ to be as casual as WoW but it just removed all the things that made EQ so intense. And anyone who wanted a more casual experience may as well have just played WoW which was so much slicker and had about 100 times more players. Basically SOE made endlessly crappy decisions for at least a decade. EQ was their one-hit-wonder, they spent all EQ's profits on other projects that were mostly dumb and failed and wasted all the money. And then they got bought out by the Russian mafia.
 
Last edited:

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
I just read that, funny =) It is amazing how so many people had so many different stories all in the same game.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
There's a new TLP starting soon, I won't have the time to participate :negative:(maybe next year) but I thought some of you would want to know.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
That's interesting to see them try new ideas. The new server is gonna have rare mobs drop any rare loot from any rare mob in that era. Very different. Although I suspect all it will do is mean people just sit in one easy camp spot and farm all the items from that expansion without having to move.
 

Darkforge

Augur
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
216
Ah Everquest literally the only good MMO I ever played.
If they rereleased the game in a new graphics engine I would be all over that shit.

Things were broken in a fun way. I had one of the only high-level, well equipped raiding Dark elf shadows knights on my server with epic weapon. Since they were a nightmare to level being kill on-site to .. well everything.
Never quite been a class like it in any other game. 3 parts warrior 1 part necromancer, with a bag full of utility. Invisibility to living and undead, levitation, A 20 second harm shield which could allow you for example to fall huge distances through zones and land comfortably at the bottom of a raid area, then feign death while you waiting for the raid force to get there. Raid role was to literally piss the hell out of any creature in the game in an instant when shit hit the fan, and of course divide and conquer pulling strats.
Extremely self sufficent and a great group tank to boot as well as a nightmare in pvp.

one of my best gaming memories was winning a 100 or so man free for all pvp tournament in the lake rathetear arena and getting awarded a custom title from a gm. This was after abandoning my poor group at the bottom of a dungeon when the tournament was announced to make the journey, silently whipping out my hammer of the overthere while fighting a boss. (this weapon had a proc which would instantly teleport you to an evil outpost in kunark)

When yelled at by my group WTF I was in Kunark all of a sudden, I replied that I was off to win the tournament in rathetear, and good luck to them Which of course was met with anger and disbelief. Until the server announcement was made that I had in fact won. Yes I know this was a dick move but hey, it was a roleplaying server. ;P

damn now I gott resist the urge to reinstall...They just don't make games like this anymore.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
Ah Everquest literally the only good MMO I ever played.
If they rereleased the game in a new graphics engine I would be all over that shit.

Things were broken in a fun way. I had one of the only high-level, well equipped raiding Dark elf shadows knights on my server with epic weapon. Since they were a nightmare to level being kill on-site to .. well everything.
Never quite been a class like it in any other game. 3 parts warrior 1 part necromancer, with a bag full of utility. Invisibility to living and undead, levitation, A 20 second harm shield which could allow you for example to fall huge distances through zones and land comfortably at the bottom of a raid area, then feign death while you waiting for the raid force to get there. Raid role was to literally piss the hell out of any creature in the game in an instant when shit hit the fan, and of course divide and conquer pulling strats.
Extremely self sufficent and a great group tank to boot as well as a nightmare in pvp.

one of my best gaming memories was winning a 100 or so man free for all pvp tournament in the lake rathetear arena and getting awarded a custom title from a gm. This was after abandoning my poor group at the bottom of a dungeon when the tournament was announced to make the journey, silently whipping out my hammer of the overthere while fighting a boss. (this weapon had a proc which would instantly teleport you to an evil outpost in kunark)

When yelled at by my group WTF I was in Kunark all of a sudden, I replied that I was off to win the tournament in rathetear, and good luck to them Which of course was met with anger and disbelief. Until the server announcement was made that I had in fact won. Yes I know this was a dick move but hey, it was a roleplaying server. ;P

damn now I gott resist the urge to reinstall...They just don't make games like this anymore.
It really is/was amazing especially compared to other MMOs! The epic weapon quest for the Shadow Knight is one of the few that I've done too and I really loved it. Ruins of Old Paineel is maybe the best dungeon I've ever seen. I loved infiltrating the undead bank with just me and 2 buddies. I really got to know that dungeon inside out and I can still remember it, fascinating.

I won a GM event too! It was not long before Kunark and most people had started reaching level 50 in larger numbers and Lower Guk was full of people just farming items and killing everything that moved. To the point that there was nothing left alive in the whole dungeon :) Then one night 2 super aggressive large Frogloks show up and start fighting with the players and stuff. Everyone starts rushing to see what's going on and they lose track of the rooms they were camping. So the dungeon starts respawning and everyone is gawping at the GM event, and a minute later it's just carnage, 100 enemies running around killing people left and right, gargoyles and spiders and shit joining in :D I don't know what happened to the first Froglok but the other one ran away like it was trying to flee the dungeon. I chased after it and I was the only one that saw where it went. I saw 20 people hit it earlier and it didn't take a scratch so I was scared chasing it, thinking I'm the only one, if it turns around and hits me I'm toast! But then in the last underwater tunnel, it got confused or something and drowned. :D It dropped two Short Sword of the Ykeshas! And I was using 2 crappy Runed Falchions or something so I looted them and ran away to try to calm down.
 
Last edited:

Darkforge

Augur
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
216
yes, and it took me way longer than I ever want to admit to myself or anyone.
Also had the circlet of shadows before they stopped it from dropping in the game. This allowed you to feign death and stand up and insta cast invisibility before the server realized you had stood up.. XD
Another amazing memory was a time me and a rogue friend decided to see if we could make it to the plane of mischief without a raid force just our classes raw utility. Would have made it but I missed the zone entrance and ran right past it like an idiot right into the face of a dragon.

:rage:

Or trolling annoying halfling druids begging for plat in newbie zones and telling them I would give them money but they first had to go into donate mode by targetting me and typing /D (duel) .. good times. XD
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,257
I played a Ogre Shadow Knight and still remember farming that item that transform you into a Dark Elf (so you could have all the upsides of being an Ogre without the size) in Lower Guk for days and days.
It was a rare drop from one rare mob. And the way it worked was 'first come first served' in the group camping the spawn room. So you first had to wait for a spot in the group and then wait for everyone that was in the group before you get the item.

I don't think new MMO players today could handle non-instanced dungeons. There was so much etiquette everyone followed. Like zoning in and asking for open spots. Certain rooms in a dungeon belonging to to certain groups camping in x room. People telling you when the way was clear to reach a deeper room, past the room they were camping. Groups helping each other after a bad pull (for example if stuff respawned in a room you pulled though). Or "train to zone" warnings.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I don't think new MMO players today could handle non-instanced dungeons. There was so much etiquette everyone followed.
A lot of people didn't though.
It's simultaneously why MMOs have instanced content now and P99 is a massive joke full of GM-enforced rules that never existed on the live servers.

poopsockers submit lawyer-tier complaints about how they had their raidboss stolen from them
no, that isn't hyperbole
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x-u9B38AePUk9U-nprqKQauTo5GuaTVtDRjo5ahusPA
6/19/21 Vulak’Aerr


Situation


When: Saturday, June 19, 2021

Where: Temple of Veeshan

What: Vulak’Aerr

Who: Kittens Who Say Meow & Riot v. Vanquish

Results: Vanquish trains Riot/Kittens raid, goes on to kill Vulak.



Allegation


Parties Accused: Vanquish

Allegation of Misconduct: Q2 for raid interference (training); Q3 for refusal to acknowledge mistake; Q4 for refusal to discuss alleged raid infractions in real time during the encounter; Q11 for training.



Summary


Kittens and Riot were collectively at the top of the doubles ramp in North Temple of Veeshan, preparing for an engage of Vulak’Aerr, while Vanquish was at the triples flag doing the same. Vanquish achieved the first FTE, executed the DA trainaway, and established a kite of Vulak’s guards in the triples room. During the course of their engage, the ramp area trash mobs were trained away several times to manage guards returning to the main Vulak engage. At no time did any member of the Kittens/Riot raid descend the ramp or otherwise interfere with the kite or any of the trainaways. Vulak was eventually CH’d by a mob, as a large group of mobs wiped Vanquish. Klazdaxthun, a Vanquish necromancer, during this time ran up the doubles ramp alone and feigned death in the back of the Riot/Kittens raid. At no time did Vanquish warn the zone that Vulak was being dropped, and the kited mobs were returning home. (Violation: Q11)


The trash mobs in the ramp area were reset when Klazdaxthun stood up and re-aggroed the guards returning home. The trash mobs in the ramp area assisted the guards, and all came up the ramp where several members of the Kittens/Riot raid, who were sitting, were killed. When Klazdaxthun was hit by an AoE, he stood and attempted to gate, but was unable to do so before the group of mobs all together turned on him and killed him. Subsequently, the entire rest of the Riot/Kittens raid was wiped, requiring a lengthy CR. (Violations: Q2, Q11)

When approached about the train, Vanquish leadership refused to discuss the matter, and insisted that all parties should play on. (Violation: Q3) Vanquish’s raid disruption gave us no choice but to execute a hasty corpse recovery, and rush to engage. Vanquish was rewarded for their raid disruption and ultimately killed Vulak’Aerr.


Q2 states:


Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?

A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).


Vanquish’s train, which wiped the Kittens/Riot raid at the top of the doubles ramp, is within Q2’s definition of raid disruption.


Q3 and Q4 state:


Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?

A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on.


Did they screw up? Yes.

Did they concede? No.


_Q2hrBON2PpPkqNnb6ypxP4lp7g_Ptl3IKAFDJaOfZIOnVlwT5hCxXKMBLZpRqyYxdj8bHEI2VfRwBXzSCXOXZ4wrpWb1qFcvUzBTiUj8v4I1G-KIfYHuk50wqxgh8aHuA



Notice: Vanquish leaders do not deny training our raid or “screwing up.” They only deny that they must concede.


Q4: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?

A: It is probably in your best interest to work raid disputes out among yourselves. The other option is the petition forum.


We believe Vanquish violated rules set forth in Q2, Q3, & Q11, and we attempted to work out the dispute in the UN at the time it happened. Vanquish refused, played on, and killed the mob. We attempted to work out the dispute after the fact, Vanquish was silent to our questions and then refused to offer concessions. They held back their final response until the day this petition was due. Our only remaining option is the petition process.


In addition, Q11 states:


Q11: What about training away trash mobs?

A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies or zones, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone. This means actually communicate so that both parties have a fair amount of time to work out a safe place, or a safe time to drop the train. Please try not to run your trains within aggro range of another guild or raid party.


While it was fine for Klaz to be part of a train away/kite, he must be “responsible for [his] trains/mobs.” Mobs went and wiped another guild, and thus, that is still training. When it came time to drop their train, there was no communication and coordination with other guilds in the zone. Ultimately, one of their trainers and the train away/kite was brought to our camp and wiped us, violating Q11.


Evidence & Timeline


First video (2:49 min total): https://youtu.be/WzBYe5fcPkQ - which is a time-synched compilation of several angles of recording.

First Video: 0:05 Klaz can be seen running up doubles ramp to the Kittens/Riot raid.

First Video: 0:14 Mobs are returning from 4-way area and can be seen running up the triplets ramp.

First Video: 0:36 Riot guild chat calls when the blue drake tries to CH Vulak.

First Video: 1:02 Mobs have reset at the bottom of triples ramp from the initial train scare.

First Video: 1:38 Mobs at the bottom of triples ramp are starting to be displaced again.

First Video: 1:49 Vulak guards and others are clearly visible leaving triples and turning to head to doubles.

First Video: 1:51 Klazdaxthun begins casting, which means at this time he is presently standing up (as shown in Video 3)

First Video: 1:57 New aggro messages are shown for mobs closest to the observer, prior to any members of Riot/Kittens raid being killed, because Klaz has successfully feigned death, and he was the only player on the aggro table of the mobs.

First Video: 2:13 Klaz is seen FD at the back of the raid

First Video: 2:20 Klaz can be seen standing up, and simultaneously the drakes all turn towards him. No new aggro messages are seen because Klaz is already on the mobs’ aggro tables, and the mobs all turn on him as one for the same reason.

First Video: 2:24 Klaz is killed, new aggro messages go out from multiple drakes.


Second Video (3:18 min total) - https://youtu.be/6jd3aj93E_w

1:21 - Klazdaxthun is seen cresting top of ramp, moving out of camera to back of raid;

1:24 - a green drake can be seen in the ramp area moving up towards doubles, and Riot/Kittens raid;

1:28 - Klazdaxthun begins to cast a spell (feign death)

1:30 - Green drake is seen changing direction towards triples ramp (feign death succeeded, Klaz is down at this point).

2:53 - Klazdaxthun begins to cast a spell (Klaz is standing again, in order to be casting a spell, as shown in the third video)

2:55 - a shimmering green drake lets out a piercing roar. (Klaz was casting FD, and upon his successful feign, the mobs are free of aggro and re-aggro on a new target with fresh aggro messages).


Third Video (26 seconds total) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YojFVGhSEU

0:05 - Klazdaxthun seen standing, then feigning death in back of camp; upon his feign death new aggro message goes out. Only after a new aggro message is seen from a shimmering green drake does Darmai <KWSM> get backstabbed twice and killed, because Klaz was the only player on the mob’s aggro table prior to feigning death.


Attempts at communication:

-WKj99669717Dal5pz0P-DGU4Oh_Y_v6hq69SD0fxVoQc8tgHZgq-uDG84Y-mgZkYP2CYjEZLf0EE1TQrZtfwt99c3IKV87UzLPomzq6XYSkCED5mOsJ3YGJyno060wPNw


yd7lTROYncmhl1ptzxA2bLm5kGKkC0VdHR-xdgxKpwpL1466N8thM0lc_4uCrzSOduiNWrtTOzNsl17QpC7KmLqk57Ah_PdMoT1tIxO3U9o7lZx_LIUDC9pgA6tD0qqNpw


foeOedzqWbbgzzQ8qeBA4x9nR60JMs90lmpI498fL1piImZN_4ClLEMkQ8BrU3spz0iAK-EUupQQ3a8KkuilP-ax3edXwhvNNjzhqTsd-BPjeryRv9dll_ZvHUmC1UvSKw


EK41iP3jlxEqoEZ6prrf1yKBwI_3r-4dOz90Mw79a26AEY8v0fgkiloJysGauZQBtU64K5Ur5EZY_cWuarUYN90toDh5oFvUMMHwtBKyNwA4cwsxMtbsuW6vD7YZVBL2HA


osXL7fyogzmupv9oOXysZYdpZkaxtLfd9Dkec2rnnLfN2JMAYOro9RccBiA0CCG7vbJkuIuKlRSVlVSHPM6gb5FCQpzyZL_Dr8szz8DidTppaz_5TyPSaaf_hB5oDf1_vg


46jUS4XsiPetnGxsjX9oLNspr_ZCIs1X1BGGnqTl5kR3gGxWslHPF_MWIewWoMEaP8IQj3BHwByYoddLH1WfUWZ8RmdqcZTJLYm83KQhspYvBgwNduIcwiwkxjuR0Omhgg



We then posted additional footage (video 3) that clearly shows Klaz FDing his train onto our raid. Vanquish leadership replied:


undaHAAYm4ChHUUUPIhVJW0O9uGurx0FQqLkgR5FYhEK6V64VnTgeRT_nSEPUOZkwYBKGkC7VQPyCGnZ4hS_-qh7NVkai0pVkhYLLrk0VE7R2zPI8-ClM6rTzXXN-qKNAA




Allegations:


Vanquish Disrupted Our Raid by Training Kittens/Riot (Q2, Q11)


It is undeniable that Klazdaxthun ran up to the rear of the Kittens/Riot raid just as Vanquish was wiping on Vulak. The drakes in the ramp area were fully reset, and the Vulak guards were returning to their spawn unaggro’d when a chain of events took place: Klazdaxthun stood, reestablished aggro on the guards, caused the trash mobs to assist the guards, and trained all of the mobs to the doubles ramp. The evidence and timelines provided clearly demonstrate this, and no counter evidence has been suggested or provided to back up any alternate explanation.


As can be seen from 1:50 - 2:00 of the First video posted above, Klazdathun was standing up, and not feigned death when the mobs were coming up the ramp - at 1:53 spell messages show Klaz casting, and 1.5 seconds later, when the spell finished casting, new aggro messages went out from the drakes in line of sight of Riot/Kittens raiders.


At 2:17 in video one, a feigned Klaz is visible in the rear of the raid. At roughly 2:20 - 2:30, Klaz can be observed being hit by AoE, at which time he stood to attempt a gate. The drakes instead bolted for him, and upon his death new aggro messages went out, evidencing that he was the only player on the aggro table at the time of his death. The resulting train caused a total wipe of the Kittens/Riot raid.


The second video provides additional corroboration for this sequence of events.


  • At 1:21, Klaz is seen coming up the ramp

  • At 1:24 a green drake can be seen following Klaz up

  • At 1:28, Klaz can be seen casting a spell

  • At roughly 1:30 the drake can be seen changing direction, to move towards triples.

  • At 2:53, as the first several drakes are reaching the top of the ramp, Klazdaxthun can be seen casting a new spell (feign death)

  • Less than two seconds later a new aggro message from the green drake is observed, evidencing that Klazdaxthun was the only player on the drake’s aggro table.

While all videos contribute to our described fact pattern, the third video is the smoking gun. It provides the exact evidence that many Vanquish asked for: footage of Klaz bringing and feigning the kite onto our raid. Klaz stands with drakes incoming, then Klaz feigns death and new aggro messages go out.


Taken together, these three videos show a clear picture of the sequence of events. Klaz was dirty when he came up the ramp initially, and feigned death. He later stood up, causing the mobs which were still aggro on him, as well as mobs in the assist range of those mobs, to move towards his position. Klaz feigns death again, this time with several drakes in line of sight and within aggro range of the Kittens/Riot raid, and new aggro messages go out when he does so, evidencing he was the only player on the aggro table of the mobs. Equally important, no one was killed by the train prior to new aggro messages going out when they reached the top of the ramp - because the only player on the aggro table was Klaz, and he had completed his cast of feign death at this time. Klaz then is hit by an AoE, breaking his feign and causing all the drakes to turn in his direction. When he is killed, new aggro messages from multiple mobs all go out at once, showing that Klaz was the sole player on their hate lists. Klazdaxthun was the clear and unambiguous source of the train which wiped out the Riot/Kittens raid.


The only defense offered by Vanquish is that somehow, a member or members of the Riot/Kittens raid achieved aggro on the mobs at some point prior to this train. Vanquish has no evidence of this, and our evidence reveals a clear fact pattern that negates their defense. They’re reasoning is faulty because the trash mobs at the base of the ramp reset, and the only mobs which could have been close enough to the raid at the top of doubles ramp, were all fully reset during the course of this set of events. These mobs were only re-aggroed to assist the returning Vulak guards, which had not cleared agro on Klaz yet because he had not /q’d out. Thus, they aggroed when Klaz stood up.


At best, Klaz made an error in judgment because he thought the guards had already reset. At worst, Klaz intentionally brought seven flurry drakes and a number of trash mobs on top of a competing raid force. Either way - this is a textbook definition of a Q2: Raid interference and a “screwup” and requires concessions (Q4).



Vanquish Did Not Offer A Pause, Concession or an Uncontested Attempt (Q3)


When we approached Vanquish leadership about the matter, they refused to consider our claims, and insisted that we play on rather than review any evidence or entertain any discussion. We view this as acting in bad faith and against the expectations of CSR to work through problems as they happen. Following our subsequent rushed engage, Vanquish leaders claimed they “gave us a free shot.” However Q3 does not specify that a “free shot” is a substitute for a full concession. In the above communications Nibblewitz notes that the conversation is continuing an hour after the event - as if the time lapsed excuses their raid disruption.


Vanquish did not offer a pause, or free attempt, and continued the race to Vulak. Given the severity of the train - a full raid wipe, of a raid nowhere near any of the moving parts of the trainaway, kite, or fight itself - this should have been an easy concession to make. Vanquish’s refusal to discuss the matter is a violation of Q4, which instructs guilds to work together to resolve raid disputes.


We fear that Vanquish will continue to break raid rules if they are not held accountable to them as written. If they are not held accountable through the petition process, it is unlikely they will reconsider taking responsibility when they make mistakes in the future. We all make mistakes, but guild relations and the raid scene will deteriorate if folks do not take responsibility for raid interference.


Vanquish Leadership Should Be Held Accountable For Their Failure To Act In Good Faith


Kittens Who Say Meow and Riot regret having to write this petition. We worry that when our guilds refuse to act in good faith, more and more petitions will be created, creating more work for the staff. However, Vanquish refused to respond to our evidence, said “play on” in real time, and gave us no other pathway to enforceme very clear and specific server rules they violated. Whether we had 27 minutes or 27 hours after their train to recover - the written rules call for concessions that are not time based. Moving the bar on the rules is not up to Vanquish to decide. In fact, we all must abide by the letter of the rules as written, or else there will be no clarity on the server ruleset whatsoever.


Conclusion


Vanquish is a very talented guild and has successfully pulled off the kiting strategy in the past. However, that strategy comes with risks of wiping other raid forces when the train/kite gets out of control. Unfortunately, in this instance, Vanquish failed on Vulak and subsequently wiped Kittens & Riot with their train. Kittens/Riot kept its distance in order to avoid interfering with their engage in any way. When Vanquish trainers manipulating the trash mobs brought them partially up the ramp, calls for a cycle camp were made out of an abundance of caution, but were not necessary, as was confirmed when everything was reset (Video 1, 1:02). Kittens/Riot did not have agro because mobs were not in line of sight of the raid due to the ramp, and also because as they were already aggro on a player no other players could get mere proximity aggro. Riot/Kittens gave Vanquish all the needed space to perform their attempt, and did not interfere. Whether by coincidence or by intention, our respect for their engage was met with a devastating train that interfered with our raid, slowing down our imminent attempt. They successfully forced a hurried recovery and by continuing to compete for the mob, they rushed our second attempt. Vanquish took no action at the time of the train or afterward to express regret or contrition for interfering with our raid. Since Vanquish refuses to take responsibility, and since Riot/KWSM have no power to make Vanquish follow the rules, we implore CSR to take whatever action you see fit.
 

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,257
I don't think new MMO players today could handle non-instanced dungeons. There was so much etiquette everyone followed.
A lot of people didn't though.
It's simultaneously why MMOs have instanced content now and P99 is a massive joke full of GM-enforced rules that never existed on the live servers.

poopsockers submit lawyer-tier complaints about how they had their raidboss stolen from them
no, that isn't hyperbole
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x-u9B38AePUk9U-nprqKQauTo5GuaTVtDRjo5ahusPA
6/19/21 Vulak’Aerr


Situation


When: Saturday, June 19, 2021

Where: Temple of Veeshan

What: Vulak’Aerr

Who: Kittens Who Say Meow & Riot v. Vanquish

Results: Vanquish trains Riot/Kittens raid, goes on to kill Vulak.



Allegation


Parties Accused: Vanquish

Allegation of Misconduct: Q2 for raid interference (training); Q3 for refusal to acknowledge mistake; Q4 for refusal to discuss alleged raid infractions in real time during the encounter; Q11 for training.



Summary


Kittens and Riot were collectively at the top of the doubles ramp in North Temple of Veeshan, preparing for an engage of Vulak’Aerr, while Vanquish was at the triples flag doing the same. Vanquish achieved the first FTE, executed the DA trainaway, and established a kite of Vulak’s guards in the triples room. During the course of their engage, the ramp area trash mobs were trained away several times to manage guards returning to the main Vulak engage. At no time did any member of the Kittens/Riot raid descend the ramp or otherwise interfere with the kite or any of the trainaways. Vulak was eventually CH’d by a mob, as a large group of mobs wiped Vanquish. Klazdaxthun, a Vanquish necromancer, during this time ran up the doubles ramp alone and feigned death in the back of the Riot/Kittens raid. At no time did Vanquish warn the zone that Vulak was being dropped, and the kited mobs were returning home. (Violation: Q11)


The trash mobs in the ramp area were reset when Klazdaxthun stood up and re-aggroed the guards returning home. The trash mobs in the ramp area assisted the guards, and all came up the ramp where several members of the Kittens/Riot raid, who were sitting, were killed. When Klazdaxthun was hit by an AoE, he stood and attempted to gate, but was unable to do so before the group of mobs all together turned on him and killed him. Subsequently, the entire rest of the Riot/Kittens raid was wiped, requiring a lengthy CR. (Violations: Q2, Q11)

When approached about the train, Vanquish leadership refused to discuss the matter, and insisted that all parties should play on. (Violation: Q3) Vanquish’s raid disruption gave us no choice but to execute a hasty corpse recovery, and rush to engage. Vanquish was rewarded for their raid disruption and ultimately killed Vulak’Aerr.


Q2 states:


Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?

A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).


Vanquish’s train, which wiped the Kittens/Riot raid at the top of the doubles ramp, is within Q2’s definition of raid disruption.


Q3 and Q4 state:


Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?

A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on.


Did they screw up? Yes.

Did they concede? No.


_Q2hrBON2PpPkqNnb6ypxP4lp7g_Ptl3IKAFDJaOfZIOnVlwT5hCxXKMBLZpRqyYxdj8bHEI2VfRwBXzSCXOXZ4wrpWb1qFcvUzBTiUj8v4I1G-KIfYHuk50wqxgh8aHuA



Notice: Vanquish leaders do not deny training our raid or “screwing up.” They only deny that they must concede.


Q4: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?

A: It is probably in your best interest to work raid disputes out among yourselves. The other option is the petition forum.


We believe Vanquish violated rules set forth in Q2, Q3, & Q11, and we attempted to work out the dispute in the UN at the time it happened. Vanquish refused, played on, and killed the mob. We attempted to work out the dispute after the fact, Vanquish was silent to our questions and then refused to offer concessions. They held back their final response until the day this petition was due. Our only remaining option is the petition process.


In addition, Q11 states:


Q11: What about training away trash mobs?

A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies or zones, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone. This means actually communicate so that both parties have a fair amount of time to work out a safe place, or a safe time to drop the train. Please try not to run your trains within aggro range of another guild or raid party.


While it was fine for Klaz to be part of a train away/kite, he must be “responsible for [his] trains/mobs.” Mobs went and wiped another guild, and thus, that is still training. When it came time to drop their train, there was no communication and coordination with other guilds in the zone. Ultimately, one of their trainers and the train away/kite was brought to our camp and wiped us, violating Q11.


Evidence & Timeline


First video (2:49 min total): https://youtu.be/WzBYe5fcPkQ - which is a time-synched compilation of several angles of recording.

First Video: 0:05 Klaz can be seen running up doubles ramp to the Kittens/Riot raid.

First Video: 0:14 Mobs are returning from 4-way area and can be seen running up the triplets ramp.

First Video: 0:36 Riot guild chat calls when the blue drake tries to CH Vulak.

First Video: 1:02 Mobs have reset at the bottom of triples ramp from the initial train scare.

First Video: 1:38 Mobs at the bottom of triples ramp are starting to be displaced again.

First Video: 1:49 Vulak guards and others are clearly visible leaving triples and turning to head to doubles.

First Video: 1:51 Klazdaxthun begins casting, which means at this time he is presently standing up (as shown in Video 3)

First Video: 1:57 New aggro messages are shown for mobs closest to the observer, prior to any members of Riot/Kittens raid being killed, because Klaz has successfully feigned death, and he was the only player on the aggro table of the mobs.

First Video: 2:13 Klaz is seen FD at the back of the raid

First Video: 2:20 Klaz can be seen standing up, and simultaneously the drakes all turn towards him. No new aggro messages are seen because Klaz is already on the mobs’ aggro tables, and the mobs all turn on him as one for the same reason.

First Video: 2:24 Klaz is killed, new aggro messages go out from multiple drakes.


Second Video (3:18 min total) - https://youtu.be/6jd3aj93E_w

1:21 - Klazdaxthun is seen cresting top of ramp, moving out of camera to back of raid;

1:24 - a green drake can be seen in the ramp area moving up towards doubles, and Riot/Kittens raid;

1:28 - Klazdaxthun begins to cast a spell (feign death)

1:30 - Green drake is seen changing direction towards triples ramp (feign death succeeded, Klaz is down at this point).

2:53 - Klazdaxthun begins to cast a spell (Klaz is standing again, in order to be casting a spell, as shown in the third video)

2:55 - a shimmering green drake lets out a piercing roar. (Klaz was casting FD, and upon his successful feign, the mobs are free of aggro and re-aggro on a new target with fresh aggro messages).


Third Video (26 seconds total) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YojFVGhSEU

0:05 - Klazdaxthun seen standing, then feigning death in back of camp; upon his feign death new aggro message goes out. Only after a new aggro message is seen from a shimmering green drake does Darmai <KWSM> get backstabbed twice and killed, because Klaz was the only player on the mob’s aggro table prior to feigning death.


Attempts at communication:

-WKj99669717Dal5pz0P-DGU4Oh_Y_v6hq69SD0fxVoQc8tgHZgq-uDG84Y-mgZkYP2CYjEZLf0EE1TQrZtfwt99c3IKV87UzLPomzq6XYSkCED5mOsJ3YGJyno060wPNw


yd7lTROYncmhl1ptzxA2bLm5kGKkC0VdHR-xdgxKpwpL1466N8thM0lc_4uCrzSOduiNWrtTOzNsl17QpC7KmLqk57Ah_PdMoT1tIxO3U9o7lZx_LIUDC9pgA6tD0qqNpw


foeOedzqWbbgzzQ8qeBA4x9nR60JMs90lmpI498fL1piImZN_4ClLEMkQ8BrU3spz0iAK-EUupQQ3a8KkuilP-ax3edXwhvNNjzhqTsd-BPjeryRv9dll_ZvHUmC1UvSKw


EK41iP3jlxEqoEZ6prrf1yKBwI_3r-4dOz90Mw79a26AEY8v0fgkiloJysGauZQBtU64K5Ur5EZY_cWuarUYN90toDh5oFvUMMHwtBKyNwA4cwsxMtbsuW6vD7YZVBL2HA


osXL7fyogzmupv9oOXysZYdpZkaxtLfd9Dkec2rnnLfN2JMAYOro9RccBiA0CCG7vbJkuIuKlRSVlVSHPM6gb5FCQpzyZL_Dr8szz8DidTppaz_5TyPSaaf_hB5oDf1_vg


46jUS4XsiPetnGxsjX9oLNspr_ZCIs1X1BGGnqTl5kR3gGxWslHPF_MWIewWoMEaP8IQj3BHwByYoddLH1WfUWZ8RmdqcZTJLYm83KQhspYvBgwNduIcwiwkxjuR0Omhgg



We then posted additional footage (video 3) that clearly shows Klaz FDing his train onto our raid. Vanquish leadership replied:


undaHAAYm4ChHUUUPIhVJW0O9uGurx0FQqLkgR5FYhEK6V64VnTgeRT_nSEPUOZkwYBKGkC7VQPyCGnZ4hS_-qh7NVkai0pVkhYLLrk0VE7R2zPI8-ClM6rTzXXN-qKNAA




Allegations:


Vanquish Disrupted Our Raid by Training Kittens/Riot (Q2, Q11)


It is undeniable that Klazdaxthun ran up to the rear of the Kittens/Riot raid just as Vanquish was wiping on Vulak. The drakes in the ramp area were fully reset, and the Vulak guards were returning to their spawn unaggro’d when a chain of events took place: Klazdaxthun stood, reestablished aggro on the guards, caused the trash mobs to assist the guards, and trained all of the mobs to the doubles ramp. The evidence and timelines provided clearly demonstrate this, and no counter evidence has been suggested or provided to back up any alternate explanation.


As can be seen from 1:50 - 2:00 of the First video posted above, Klazdathun was standing up, and not feigned death when the mobs were coming up the ramp - at 1:53 spell messages show Klaz casting, and 1.5 seconds later, when the spell finished casting, new aggro messages went out from the drakes in line of sight of Riot/Kittens raiders.


At 2:17 in video one, a feigned Klaz is visible in the rear of the raid. At roughly 2:20 - 2:30, Klaz can be observed being hit by AoE, at which time he stood to attempt a gate. The drakes instead bolted for him, and upon his death new aggro messages went out, evidencing that he was the only player on the aggro table at the time of his death. The resulting train caused a total wipe of the Kittens/Riot raid.


The second video provides additional corroboration for this sequence of events.


  • At 1:21, Klaz is seen coming up the ramp

  • At 1:24 a green drake can be seen following Klaz up

  • At 1:28, Klaz can be seen casting a spell

  • At roughly 1:30 the drake can be seen changing direction, to move towards triples.

  • At 2:53, as the first several drakes are reaching the top of the ramp, Klazdaxthun can be seen casting a new spell (feign death)

  • Less than two seconds later a new aggro message from the green drake is observed, evidencing that Klazdaxthun was the only player on the drake’s aggro table.

While all videos contribute to our described fact pattern, the third video is the smoking gun. It provides the exact evidence that many Vanquish asked for: footage of Klaz bringing and feigning the kite onto our raid. Klaz stands with drakes incoming, then Klaz feigns death and new aggro messages go out.


Taken together, these three videos show a clear picture of the sequence of events. Klaz was dirty when he came up the ramp initially, and feigned death. He later stood up, causing the mobs which were still aggro on him, as well as mobs in the assist range of those mobs, to move towards his position. Klaz feigns death again, this time with several drakes in line of sight and within aggro range of the Kittens/Riot raid, and new aggro messages go out when he does so, evidencing he was the only player on the aggro table of the mobs. Equally important, no one was killed by the train prior to new aggro messages going out when they reached the top of the ramp - because the only player on the aggro table was Klaz, and he had completed his cast of feign death at this time. Klaz then is hit by an AoE, breaking his feign and causing all the drakes to turn in his direction. When he is killed, new aggro messages from multiple mobs all go out at once, showing that Klaz was the sole player on their hate lists. Klazdaxthun was the clear and unambiguous source of the train which wiped out the Riot/Kittens raid.


The only defense offered by Vanquish is that somehow, a member or members of the Riot/Kittens raid achieved aggro on the mobs at some point prior to this train. Vanquish has no evidence of this, and our evidence reveals a clear fact pattern that negates their defense. They’re reasoning is faulty because the trash mobs at the base of the ramp reset, and the only mobs which could have been close enough to the raid at the top of doubles ramp, were all fully reset during the course of this set of events. These mobs were only re-aggroed to assist the returning Vulak guards, which had not cleared agro on Klaz yet because he had not /q’d out. Thus, they aggroed when Klaz stood up.


At best, Klaz made an error in judgment because he thought the guards had already reset. At worst, Klaz intentionally brought seven flurry drakes and a number of trash mobs on top of a competing raid force. Either way - this is a textbook definition of a Q2: Raid interference and a “screwup” and requires concessions (Q4).



Vanquish Did Not Offer A Pause, Concession or an Uncontested Attempt (Q3)


When we approached Vanquish leadership about the matter, they refused to consider our claims, and insisted that we play on rather than review any evidence or entertain any discussion. We view this as acting in bad faith and against the expectations of CSR to work through problems as they happen. Following our subsequent rushed engage, Vanquish leaders claimed they “gave us a free shot.” However Q3 does not specify that a “free shot” is a substitute for a full concession. In the above communications Nibblewitz notes that the conversation is continuing an hour after the event - as if the time lapsed excuses their raid disruption.


Vanquish did not offer a pause, or free attempt, and continued the race to Vulak. Given the severity of the train - a full raid wipe, of a raid nowhere near any of the moving parts of the trainaway, kite, or fight itself - this should have been an easy concession to make. Vanquish’s refusal to discuss the matter is a violation of Q4, which instructs guilds to work together to resolve raid disputes.


We fear that Vanquish will continue to break raid rules if they are not held accountable to them as written. If they are not held accountable through the petition process, it is unlikely they will reconsider taking responsibility when they make mistakes in the future. We all make mistakes, but guild relations and the raid scene will deteriorate if folks do not take responsibility for raid interference.


Vanquish Leadership Should Be Held Accountable For Their Failure To Act In Good Faith


Kittens Who Say Meow and Riot regret having to write this petition. We worry that when our guilds refuse to act in good faith, more and more petitions will be created, creating more work for the staff. However, Vanquish refused to respond to our evidence, said “play on” in real time, and gave us no other pathway to enforceme very clear and specific server rules they violated. Whether we had 27 minutes or 27 hours after their train to recover - the written rules call for concessions that are not time based. Moving the bar on the rules is not up to Vanquish to decide. In fact, we all must abide by the letter of the rules as written, or else there will be no clarity on the server ruleset whatsoever.


Conclusion


Vanquish is a very talented guild and has successfully pulled off the kiting strategy in the past. However, that strategy comes with risks of wiping other raid forces when the train/kite gets out of control. Unfortunately, in this instance, Vanquish failed on Vulak and subsequently wiped Kittens & Riot with their train. Kittens/Riot kept its distance in order to avoid interfering with their engage in any way. When Vanquish trainers manipulating the trash mobs brought them partially up the ramp, calls for a cycle camp were made out of an abundance of caution, but were not necessary, as was confirmed when everything was reset (Video 1, 1:02). Kittens/Riot did not have agro because mobs were not in line of sight of the raid due to the ramp, and also because as they were already aggro on a player no other players could get mere proximity aggro. Riot/Kittens gave Vanquish all the needed space to perform their attempt, and did not interfere. Whether by coincidence or by intention, our respect for their engage was met with a devastating train that interfered with our raid, slowing down our imminent attempt. They successfully forced a hurried recovery and by continuing to compete for the mob, they rushed our second attempt. Vanquish took no action at the time of the train or afterward to express regret or contrition for interfering with our raid. Since Vanquish refuses to take responsibility, and since Riot/KWSM have no power to make Vanquish follow the rules, we implore CSR to take whatever action you see fit.
Different times and/or servers I guess.
I stopped playing EQ before Planes of Power.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,158
IGE and eBay ensured that there will never be a game like EverQuest ever again.
Thats for the best , coming from guy who was in top 3 guilds. It was far too demanding and really for masochistic people, a huge waste of time . The raid boss trouble ? I remember that but at least we had rotation and schedules, that was completely retarded like many design choices. I'd prefer something more sandbox with real player involvment now. I think Daoc and UO were better now.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
I always thought raiding in EQ was super shitty, I was only really interested in groups and soloing. Although there was a private server I played which made me enjoy raiding but it was different to EQ in a lot of ways. It also helped that I got in a guild with people who were really fun to be around. A few Americans, a crazy Russian guy but with a NYC accent, a panicky Frenchman who knew everything about the game but panicked a lot, and his nickname became Douchebaguette. And some sort of Scandinavian guy who was alpha af and I think maybe a real life Viking. And then some guy and his wife. It was really good, but it was kinda rare to find that.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom