How Will WOTC New Approach to Races Effect the Future CRPG?

[Ontopoly]

As if dwarfs aren't the best race... It would be an honor if my race or people were based off of the dwarfs

 

[cherry blossom]

Clearly you did not read the newspaper style website for the game when it was new. This stuff is in the game as well, but it was also in the advertising material for the game before it came out.

I remember this being mere in-game speculation from a character's point of view and nothing beyond that, no?

 

[S.torch]

It is not always about saving the world from being destroyed. Sauron won't destroy the world, but he is going to enslave all of "the free people" of the Middle Earth. Such are the stakes. This is no different from superheroes stopping villains in comics/movies. And while destroying the Ring doesn't mean the world is going to be perfect, it puts and end to a literal evil (Sauron/Mordor). Even though some of the heroes relish in counting how many Orcs they have killed this is OK, because Orcs are evil. Tolkien is very simplistic in some aspects - there is no "moral grey" in his work.

And what? When the Romans battled Carthage wasn't the affirmation that Carthage were going to enslave Rome true? And when the Ancient Greeks battled Persia? And when the Saxons battled the Vikings?

That you're going to get straight up enslaved or killed if you get defeated in a war is something that has been a palpable reality through history.

The evil doesn't need any pity or poor excuses. History is full of people who enjoyed with the suffering of others, and the world still is. These depictions represent the reality of the human condition.

On the other hand, superherotrash and greymoralism do not, and are faces of the same coin. One lives in the pipedream that all people are the same and deserve forgiviness and the other in one in which actions have no inherent value on their own. Well, I'm sure maybe it represents the sheltered reality on which these pipedreamers live on, but that's about it.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

I can't follow this low-IQ exchange of platitudes, but anyone reading LotR, especially in current_year, should understand that it is very consciously and deliberately designed to be a story of a battle against a totalitarian global technocracy and total panopticism. Dune has the same themes, but develops them in a very different manner.

What makes this impossible to compare to any superhero capeshit is the masterful "subversion of expectations". There is no final showdown between Sauron and Gandalf/Aragorn. They never even meet personally, and the attack of the forces of men on Mordor is a doomed expedition that exists only as a self-sacrificial diversion tactic, to allow the humble and unnoticed true heroes of the story to destroy the evil through a total rejection of the temptations of power, and unyielding perseverance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Superhero genre normally doesn't work like this, its entire schtick is the inherent specialness of the superhero combined with his/her/xir supposed moral self-righteousness. Star Wars original trilogy borders on this a lot but ultimately redeems itself at the very end, whereas the sequel trilogy fully and unabashedly embraces the ubermensch specialness trope and then crosspollinates it with "goddess" worship. Even crap like Harry Potter has the main character outsmart and kill the main villain (thanks to his multiple levels of inherent specialness) in a flashy duel, while righteously proclaiming judgement on him from his moral high ground before the final blow is struck. With Star Trek I can't even, every episode of every series is just a cast of space commies delivering pompous lectures on moral righteousness to various caricatures of ideologies gene rottenberry happened to dislike.

And then people wonder why an entire generation of pop culture drones who grew up on this stuff end up turning into narcissistic degenerate self-righteous monsters.

 

[Azarkon]

Problem:

* Races like orcs were based off of real world races, hence are potentially offensive.
* Classic fantasy subscribes to intrinsic racial attributes, hence challenging racial equality.

Could correct by:

* Make fantasy races not based off of real world races.
* Use a different word than "race" for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

Instead:

* Double down on making fantasy races allegories for real world races by introducing contemporary sensitivities.
* Continue to use the word "race" incorrectly for beings with entirely different origins like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

In my 51 years, I've never seen this and my generation was raised color blind. When I started playing D&D in 1984 and in the years since none of us ever made the connection of orcs=coloreds or any other race. This leads me to believe that you're the racist as you see it when no one else does.

The only genre that I can even remotely pinpoint to your beliefs is Sword & Sorcery. For example, Robert E. Howard's Conan has real world races populating his world. That's because he doesn't have fantasy races like orcs etc... They're all human and Hyboria is pre-history earth. However, he treated them with respect and didn't use racism to stereotype them.

As for the societies etc... of different cultures in fantasy, those are not demeaning stereotypes. They are the baseline for the writer to use due to personal experience and twist them to suit the world they're creating. We all do it because it's familiar and easy to get your point across. If you go too alien most of your audience would roll their eyes and stop reviewing your work. Is that racist? According to you it is. According to those of us with a brain that it's not.

The solution to this is for you to stop being a racist and view things in a colorblind manner.

I say this in the nicest way possible, but this is the sort of navel gazing behavior that's led the industry down its current path and gotten us to where we are, today.

Yes, you and your buddies didn't care. But in presuming that because you and your buddies didn't care, anybody who did can go fuck themselves, is what lost the culture war. Why? Because compare these two statements:

This is offensive to me.

Hey, stop being offended.

Which one is social media going to pick up on? Which is going to generate more out rage? Which is going to get companies' PR departments in trouble?

The passive response never wins. Society prefers action - or at least the illusion of action - to reaction. So if social justice warriors are on the attack, and your response is "doesn't look like anything to me; stop being so sensitive" then you're going to lose. Every time. Just like the video game industry has lost 99% of battles against cancel culture in the last ten years and is now paying the consequences by having social justice themes dictate their product design.

Want to know what works? Look at War Horse Studios. Change the battle field. Make it about facts and history, win by being objective, not by insisting on your own subjective reading.

"Popular fantasy races were never associated with any real world race" isn't objective. There's heaps of papers, books, and Ph. D theses written about how they were drawn from stereotypes of real world races. Creators like Tolkien have left paper trails on the associations. You're never going to convince the public that it's about "facts and history"; and that's why the losses will mount until corporate owners like Wizards of the Coast fold. And make no mistake, they are folding and will continue to fold because the cancel crusade is only getting stronger with the fall of Blizzard.

The only way you remotely come out ahead in this battle is to change the battle field. Ditch the traditional fantasy races or at least their popular representations. Insist that they're not "races" because they aren't. Build worlds in which the internal logic can't be questioned. Maybe then fantasy CRPGs could actually survive the coming social justice onslaught, instead of becoming more and more like Mass Effect Andromeda.

 

[JamesDixon]

In my 51 years, I've never seen this and my generation was raised color blind. When I started playing D&D in 1984 and in the years since none of us ever made the connection of orcs=coloreds or any other race. This leads me to believe that you're the racist as you see it when no one else does.

The only genre that I can even remotely pinpoint to your beliefs is Sword & Sorcery. For example, Robert E. Howard's Conan has real world races populating his world. That's because he doesn't have fantasy races like orcs etc... They're all human and Hyboria is pre-history earth. However, he treated them with respect and didn't use racism to stereotype them.

As for the societies etc... of different cultures in fantasy, those are not demeaning stereotypes. They are the baseline for the writer to use due to personal experience and twist them to suit the world they're creating. We all do it because it's familiar and easy to get your point across. If you go too alien most of your audience would roll their eyes and stop reviewing your work. Is that racist? According to you it is. According to those of us with a brain that it's not.

The solution to this is for you to stop being a racist and view things in a colorblind manner.

I say this in the nicest way possible, but this is the sort of navel gazing behavior that's led the industry down its current path and gotten us to where we are, today.

Yes, you and your buddies didn't care. But in presuming that because you and your buddies didn't care, anybody who did can go fuck themselves, is what lost the culture war. Why? Because compare these two statements:

This is offensive to me.

Hey, stop being offended.

Which one is social media going to pick up on? Which is going to generate more out rage? Which is going to get companies' PR departments in trouble?

The passive response never wins. Society prefers action - or at least the illusion of action - to reaction. So if social justice warriors are on the attack, and your response is "doesn't look like anything to me; stop being so sensitive" then you're going to lose. Every time. Just like the video game industry has lost 99% of battles against cancel culture in the last ten years and is now paying the consequences by having social justice themes dictate their product design.

Want to know what works? Look at War Horse Studios. Change the battle field. Make it about facts and history, win by being objective, not by insisting on your own subjective reading.

"Popular fantasy races were never associated with any real world race" isn't objective. There's heaps of papers, books, and Ph. D theses written about how they were drawn from stereotypes of real world races. Creators like Tolkien have left paper trails on the associations. You're never going to convince the public that it's about "facts and history"; and that's why the losses will mount until corporate owners like Wizards of the Coast fold. And make no mistake, they are folding and will continue to fold because the cancel crusade is only getting stronger with the fall of Blizzard.

The only way you remotely come out ahead in this battle is to change the battle field. Ditch the traditional fantasy races or at least their popular representations. Insist that they're not "races" because they aren't. Build worlds in which the internal logic can't be questioned. Maybe then fantasy CRPGs could actually survive the coming social justice onslaught, instead of becoming more and more like Mass Effect Andromeda.

The racist that navel gazes at everything that is racist it lecturing me. This is rich.

No, what led us to this path is racists like you taught for two generations to be racist and undid all the work of the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. You look for the racism to whine like the baby racist you are. That's on you dude. If you don't like it then join the Klan and get the fuck out my face with your racism.

Nobody gives a shit about woke racists. Your opinion means jack and shit to normal people. In fact, we're sick and tired of your racist and white savior bullshit. Society don't give a fuck about you boyo. I don't give a damn about you or your feelings. You're a racist retard trying to save the poor minorities from liberal morons like yourself.

The only way to win this war is to shut you up and block you from participating. You are nothing in the grand scheme of things. If you don't like it then tough. I and the majority don't give a shit. Take your woke bullshit somewhere else and stop whining about what happened in the past because you're a goddamn racist. I hear that white sheets are on sale after Labor Day. You might want to stock up for your next rally Klanner.

 

[JamesDixon]

Azarkon By the way, if the world is so racist then why is it that woketards like you have to create hoaxes to justify your racism against everyone? Seriously, like in the past 30 years all of the so-called hate crimes against minorities turned out to be hoaxes. That tells me and others that racism isn't the problem in the majority of the people. It's racists like you that are the problem.

 

[Peachcurl]

The only way you remotely come out ahead in this battle is to change the battle field. Ditch the traditional fantasy races or at least their popular representations. Insist that they're not "races" because they aren't. Build worlds in which the internal logic can't be questioned. Maybe then fantasy CRPGs could actually survive the coming social justice onslaught, instead of becoming more and more like Mass Effect Andromeda.

Sooner or later a new, non-traditional fantasy race that has any kind of negative traits will be perceived as racist. You can call them 'species' instead. You can call them 'cultures'. Call them what you want, it won't change the outcome.

 

[JamesDixon]

The only way you remotely come out ahead in this battle is to change the battle field. Ditch the traditional fantasy races or at least their popular representations. Insist that they're not "races" because they aren't. Build worlds in which the internal logic can't be questioned. Maybe then fantasy CRPGs could actually survive the coming social justice onslaught, instead of becoming more and more like Mass Effect Andromeda.

Sooner or later a new, non-traditional fantasy race that has any kind of negative traits will be perceived as racist. You can call them 'species' instead. You can call them 'cultures'. Call them what you want, it won't change the outcome.

Even if said changes were made the woketards will still tilt that windmill and attack themselves.

 

[Cryomancer]

dwarfs aren't the best race

All manlets(dwarfs) must be killed and reanimated to serve superior races so we don't need to risk more precious undeads and constructs in the mines.

 

[S.torch]

You're never going to convince the public

The only public that matters are the fans of the fantasy genre, both the old and new ones.

 

[JarlFrank]

What needs to happen is for companies to learn that SJWs don't buy games, books, movies, or anything really.

They just complain and nag and rant until hobbies they're not even into change to please their whims. Then they'll move on to the next hobby/subculture, abandoning the one that's now molded to their worldview, and the companies that bent are gonna go bankrupt because all the customers are gone.

 

[Puukko]

Correction, they do. Just not the ones the complain about. Woke people spend a big chunk of their income on consooming since they don't build families or have any real long term plans. Capeshit, funko pops, Netflix.

 

[Ontopoly]

Funko pop Funko pop

 

[Ol' Willy]

Honestly, I'd be much more offended as a black man by PoE's black Renaissance era Italians than as a Jew by Tolkien's Dwarves since the former were not inspired by any tropes, but were only made as a sort of 'positive stereotypization' to combat preexisting negative stereotypes pertaining to African Americans.

Ironic since Tolkien had a semitophile side in his works so Dwarves incorporated some false positive stereotypes about Jews, like ingenuity, for example.

 

[Ol' Willy]

undid all the work of the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s.

Communists, niggers and Jews walking hand in hand. What could be prettier?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Some of the materials he published for TLG are extremely difficult to find even in pdf form btw. Nearly all of the physical copies are collector's pieces.

Which one's of TLG are hard to find pdfs of?

Thank ya for making me to research every single set going back to 1974. I couldn't find Moldvey's or Metzer's Basic Sets as a pdf anywhere for reference.

Thou must get thine pirate.. arrr I mean archivist game on.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/110274

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/110792

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/116578

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/116619

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/116581

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17165

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17167

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17166

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17171

I fell asleep reading this; several times. The new woke shit is garbage. I don't care for their philosophy if it is that. This is purely an attack to destroy everything else of premillennials. This agenda wants us dead or subdued to slaves or worse. Its bad enough they controlling all parts of the world in various ways. Control the food, the energy, the currency, real estate, infrastructure, and jobs leaves little. Start destroying our fantasy, games, past times, and even personal philosophy or organized religions some choose and it leaves a husk of nothing to live for. They even want people sterile, decrepid, and just plain dead. Before that, controlled to such a fashion we go near insane.

As this continues people will definitely want death. Replication would be cruel like throwing your kids into a furnace fashioned in the form of a hellish god, or onto bayonets, or to pervy sexual deviants who'll rape them to death before eating them.

But hey, I'm probably wrong. It'll be cheery fluffy bunnies and sunshind and rainbows.

Anyway, you all recall the 5e wheelchair adventurer, and other crap. Just check drivethru for gay/homo 5e shit. The beholder thing is but one example.

This shit is getting thicker than that unicorn can crap it out.

And speaking of unicorns... blizzard D3 and that shit...

Heman, ghostbusters, marvel, DC, tv shows, games, etc etc...

Honestly, how the fuck could anyone buy BG3 knowing how fucking woke they are?

 

[JamesDixon]

Some of the materials he published for TLG are extremely difficult to find even in pdf form btw. Nearly all of the physical copies are collector's pieces.

Which one's of TLG are hard to find pdfs of?

Thank ya for making me to research every single set going back to 1974. I couldn't find Moldvey's or Metzer's Basic Sets as a pdf anywhere for reference.

Thou must get thine pirate.. arrr I mean archivist game on.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/110274

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/110792

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/116578

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/116619

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/116581

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17165

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17167

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17166

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/17171

I fell asleep reading this; several times. The new woke shit is garbage. I don't care for their philosophy if it is that. This is purely an attack to destroy everything else of premillennials. This agenda wants us dead or subdued to slaves or worse. Its bad enough they controlling all parts of the world in various ways. Control the food, the energy, the currency, real estate, infrastructure, and jobs leaves little. Start destroying our fantasy, games, past times, and even personal philosophy or organized religions some choose and it leaves a husk of nothing to live for. They even want people sterile, decrepid, and just plain dead. Before that, controlled to such a fashion we go near insane.

As this continues people will definitely want death. Replication would be cruel like throwing your kids into a furnace fashioned in the form of a hellish god, or onto bayonets, or to pervy sexual deviants who'll rape them to death before eating them.

But hey, I'm probably wrong. It'll be cheery fluffy bunnies and sunshind and rainbows.

Anyway, you all recall the 5e wheelchair adventurer, and other crap. Just check drivethru for gay/homo 5e shit. The beholder thing is but one example.

This shit is getting thicker than that unicorn can crap it out.

And speaking of unicorns... blizzard D3 and that shit...

Heman, ghostbusters, marvel, DC, tv shows, games, etc etc...

Honestly, how the fuck could anyone buy BG3 knowing how fucking woke they are?

Thanls bud, I did manage to find copies.... arrrr....

Yeah it's not looking good is it? They can't take away what was already published, so that is the good thing.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What the hell is this? I've never felt better about not currently having a tabletop group.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Nightmare fuel if you pursue it.

 

[JamesDixon]

What the hell is this? I've never felt better about not currently having a tabletop group.

If I was in a face to face group and the GM pulled that abomination out I would get all my stuff and leave. I would never return to said group either.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What the hell is this? I've never felt better about not currently having a tabletop group.

If I was in a face to face group and the GM pulled that abomination out I would get all my stuff and leave. I would never return to said group either.

Yeah, it just goes to show that it's important to figure out what everyone in the group is going for before you commit to it. I have no idea where the hell a flaming gay beholder with a tongue ring would even come up, outside of some game parody which would be extremely offensive to the diversity squad.

 

[JamesDixon]

mediocrepoet I didn't either and now I need therapy to get that image out of my head. LOL

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I can't imagine the other "villains" inside. I'll take it that is Xanathar. Drizzt is pribably in there and eho the hell knows whag else.

 

[JamesDixon]

I can't imagine the other "villains" inside. I'll take it that is Xanathar. Drizzt is pribably in there and eho the hell knows whag else.

It must not be popular since I can't find it anywhere in my sailing.