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Infuriating Developer Decisions in RPGs

Sunsetspawn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,049
Location
New York
I have written about this before, but my #1 most hated RPG trope is Diablo-style loot treadmills, Divinity "item fever", and any other form of rampant itemization.

Some key features of this abortion of a design philosophy...

- Illogical, randomized item design: You got an Amulet of Fire Magic, Lockpicking, and Poison Resistance! Because that's totally something a person would enchant and find useful.

- Nonsensical item distribution: You looted the aforementioned Amulet off of a giant rat you just killed. But where did the rat get this? Why was he carrying it? And how, for that matter?

- Boring, linear, granular item progression: You just got a new sword. It's a Level 6 which does +2.7% damage, compared to the Level 4 you picked up a couple maps ago which only does +2.3% damage. After 50 hours of this, the reward centers in your brain are completely fried.

- Devalued artifacts: You explored the ancient castle of Dickendorf and managed to recover Belenfuck's Sword, a long lost artifact! A few levels later, you kill a bandit and loot a Plain Iron Sword that has better stats.

- Consumable spam: You are having a hard time in a particular encounter. Perhaps you should come up with a better strategy? Nope, just pause the game and drink 5 potions in a row so your health is refilled.

Could probably come up with more examples, but you get the idea.
Word!
That Diabloot shit is fine in Borderlands, but holy shit does it suck the life outta things like Cyberpunk and D:OS.

"Hey, this ToEE is great, but you know what would make it better? Some Diablo style loot."

Nobody ever said that shit, not once, I fucking promise.
 

d1nolore

Savant
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
664
Damage thresholds can lead to funny unrealistic realisms same as AC (ie % reduction of any hit independent of power of said hit looks weird).

That's why you should have a flat amount of damage reduction not %. Helmet that decreases all damage received by 5 doesn't cause mentioned problems.
And instead causes more serious problems of requiring characters eat tons of hits like nothing. It's also really whacky to balance since early armor can't have significant DR which makes it worthless. It only kinda works in games with non-human units where armor is a weight consideration (light, medium, heavy) rather than something that progresses as the game goes on.

I don’t see the issue. Light armours restrict movement and agility less, ie bowmen and scouts who can travel or retreat faster and further with less fatigue. Heavier armours are costly and not something adventurers would start with unless coming from wealth or nobility. Then there’s magical enhancements to armours which give you progression. The whole point of armour is to mitigate hits.

aka the D&D AC system is antiquated and painfully unrealistic when used in computer games. A full plate tower shield fighter uses the same armour system as a 30 dex elf in red undies. One would realistically be harder to corner and hit and the other would be much harder to physically damage yet with the AC system they are calculated the same.

Think about it for a few seconds. How much damage does a single hit do, how much HP does a character have, and how much reduction is needed to make the armor's damage reduction meaningful? Can't be too low or the armor does nothing, can't be too high or armor is everything. Then try working out how you increase the armor's effectivness without breaking that careful balance.

Look at the extreme examples. If an attack does 110 and character typically have 100 HP, that means armor needs to reduce damage by 10% to be worthwhile (turn death into survival), but then any armor value between 10% and ~55% (where it lets you survive 2 hits) is largely wasted (it makes healing easier, but otherwise won't let you live long). On the other hand if an attack does 25 damage and characters have 100 HP, 1% lets a character survive another hit, but the next won't come till over 35% reduction, and the next won't come till even further, and is turning 4 hits till death into 5 hits significant in the first place? Armor as damage reduction requires damage sponges to "work" mathwise.

You are over complicating it because you are basing it off different systems. Games like AoD already have systems that work better; light armour and heavy armour is balanced by dodge, block, action points, and DR. Go play the demo if you want to test it.

Armour progression is still there, you have hardness and durability etc.

Point being there are already systems that work and are better. Way more thematic and interesting than D&D antiquated system. D&D stick to it because the don’t want to turn away the players who don’t like change. Sure for tabletop it’s easier to calculate but there’s no excuse in computer games.

The argument that it doesn’t work or is too complicated is just a silly one because it already exists. People are just being traditionalists
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,239
careful balance

See, this is where you have made your fatal mistake.
is turning 4 hits till death into 5 hits significant in the first place

Why not? If encounters are short and deadly this can be a significant boost to survivability. Also you seem to be obsessed with an idea that no matter how much HP one have the next armor tier needs to always increase the number of hits one may take. You can have a system in which characters with a lot of HP are better of using armor and those that are fragile should try to dodge. You also can have armors that provide additional benefits, other than damage reduction.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,628
Damage thresholds can lead to funny unrealistic realisms same as AC (ie % reduction of any hit independent of power of said hit looks weird).

That's why you should have a flat amount of damage reduction not %. Helmet that decreases all damage received by 5 doesn't cause mentioned problems.
And instead causes more serious problems of requiring characters eat tons of hits like nothing. It's also really whacky to balance since early armor can't have significant DR which makes it worthless. It only kinda works in games with non-human units where armor is a weight consideration (light, medium, heavy) rather than something that progresses as the game goes on.

I don’t see the issue. Light armours restrict movement and agility less, ie bowmen and scouts who can travel or retreat faster and further with less fatigue. Heavier armours are costly and not something adventurers would start with unless coming from wealth or nobility. Then there’s magical enhancements to armours which give you progression. The whole point of armour is to mitigate hits.

aka the D&D AC system is antiquated and painfully unrealistic when used in computer games. A full plate tower shield fighter uses the same armour system as a 30 dex elf in red undies. One would realistically be harder to corner and hit and the other would be much harder to physically damage yet with the AC system they are calculated the same.

Think about it for a few seconds. How much damage does a single hit do, how much HP does a character have, and how much reduction is needed to make the armor's damage reduction meaningful? Can't be too low or the armor does nothing, can't be too high or armor is everything. Then try working out how you increase the armor's effectivness without breaking that careful balance.

Look at the extreme examples. If an attack does 110 and character typically have 100 HP, that means armor needs to reduce damage by 10% to be worthwhile (turn death into survival), but then any armor value between 10% and ~55% (where it lets you survive 2 hits) is largely wasted (it makes healing easier, but otherwise won't let you live long). On the other hand if an attack does 25 damage and characters have 100 HP, 1% lets a character survive another hit, but the next won't come till over 35% reduction, and the next won't come till even further, and is turning 4 hits till death into 5 hits significant in the first place? Armor as damage reduction requires damage sponges to "work" mathwise.

You are over complicating it because you are basing it off different systems. Games like AoD already have systems that work better; light armour and heavy armour is balanced by dodge, block, action points, and DR. Go play the demo if you want to test it.

Armour progression is still there, you have hardness and durability etc.

Point being there are already systems that work and are better. Way more thematic and interesting than D&D antiquated system. D&D stick to it because the don’t want to turn away the players who don’t like change. Sure for tabletop it’s easier to calculate but there’s no excuse in computer games.

The argument that it doesn’t work or is too complicated is just a silly one because it already exists. People are just being traditionalists
The idea that different armor types provide similar protection in aggregate via dodge or something else is silly.

Plate armor doesn't turn you into a statue, and if the trade-offs were anywhere near equal in value nobody would ever have bothered to craft plate armor or weave chainmail.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,149
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Damage thresholds can lead to funny unrealistic realisms same as AC (ie % reduction of any hit independent of power of said hit looks weird).

That's why you should have a flat amount of damage reduction not %. Helmet that decreases all damage received by 5 doesn't cause mentioned problems.
And instead causes more serious problems of requiring characters eat tons of hits like nothing. It's also really whacky to balance since early armor can't have significant DR which makes it worthless. It only kinda works in games with non-human units where armor is a weight consideration (light, medium, heavy) rather than something that progresses as the game goes on.

I don’t see the issue. Light armours restrict movement and agility less, ie bowmen and scouts who can travel or retreat faster and further with less fatigue. Heavier armours are costly and not something adventurers would start with unless coming from wealth or nobility. Then there’s magical enhancements to armours which give you progression. The whole point of armour is to mitigate hits.

aka the D&D AC system is antiquated and painfully unrealistic when used in computer games. A full plate tower shield fighter uses the same armour system as a 30 dex elf in red undies. One would realistically be harder to corner and hit and the other would be much harder to physically damage yet with the AC system they are calculated the same.

Think about it for a few seconds. How much damage does a single hit do, how much HP does a character have, and how much reduction is needed to make the armor's damage reduction meaningful? Can't be too low or the armor does nothing, can't be too high or armor is everything. Then try working out how you increase the armor's effectivness without breaking that careful balance.

Look at the extreme examples. If an attack does 110 and character typically have 100 HP, that means armor needs to reduce damage by 10% to be worthwhile (turn death into survival), but then any armor value between 10% and ~55% (where it lets you survive 2 hits) is largely wasted (it makes healing easier, but otherwise won't let you live long). On the other hand if an attack does 25 damage and characters have 100 HP, 1% lets a character survive another hit, but the next won't come till over 35% reduction, and the next won't come till even further, and is turning 4 hits till death into 5 hits significant in the first place? Armor as damage reduction requires damage sponges to "work" mathwise.

The problem is you are taking a more realistic armor system, yet keep applying it to the same old HP system.

Change how health works, and the armor system becomes a lot more useful.

Let's take a blood loss system instead, for example. A successful hit will cause a bleeding wound. The depth of the wound determines how much blood is lost per turn. To stop the blood loss you need to apply a bandage or seal the wound with healing magic, which is not always possible in the middle of a fight. Armor that can entirely block a strike or brake its force so it inflicts only a lighter wound would be of extremely high value in such a system. Add other wound effects that can reduce your combat effectiveness, such as a wound in the arm reducing the force behind your strikes, and armor becomes even more valuable. Then make the armor system locational and you have a trade off between full protection and mobility. Do you only wear a breastplate and helmet because those areas of your body are the largest and easiest to hit, and can suffer the worst wounds, while keeping your limbs free? Do you try to penetrate an enemy's breastplate to go for the heart, or will you try to wear him down by hits to the unprotected arms and legs? Having a dozen shallow wounds on your arms will still wear you down from blood loss, but maybe you can outlast your fully armored opponent in the fatigue department because he carries more weight and therefore exhausts more quickly.

Don't just slap a complex armor system on existing HP systems that are all about reducing a big number from 100 to 0. Re-think how health and stamina work.
 

d1nolore

Savant
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
664
Damage thresholds can lead to funny unrealistic realisms same as AC (ie % reduction of any hit independent of power of said hit looks weird).

That's why you should have a flat amount of damage reduction not %. Helmet that decreases all damage received by 5 doesn't cause mentioned problems.
And instead causes more serious problems of requiring characters eat tons of hits like nothing. It's also really whacky to balance since early armor can't have significant DR which makes it worthless. It only kinda works in games with non-human units where armor is a weight consideration (light, medium, heavy) rather than something that progresses as the game goes on.

I don’t see the issue. Light armours restrict movement and agility less, ie bowmen and scouts who can travel or retreat faster and further with less fatigue. Heavier armours are costly and not something adventurers would start with unless coming from wealth or nobility. Then there’s magical enhancements to armours which give you progression. The whole point of armour is to mitigate hits.

aka the D&D AC system is antiquated and painfully unrealistic when used in computer games. A full plate tower shield fighter uses the same armour system as a 30 dex elf in red undies. One would realistically be harder to corner and hit and the other would be much harder to physically damage yet with the AC system they are calculated the same.

Think about it for a few seconds. How much damage does a single hit do, how much HP does a character have, and how much reduction is needed to make the armor's damage reduction meaningful? Can't be too low or the armor does nothing, can't be too high or armor is everything. Then try working out how you increase the armor's effectivness without breaking that careful balance.

Look at the extreme examples. If an attack does 110 and character typically have 100 HP, that means armor needs to reduce damage by 10% to be worthwhile (turn death into survival), but then any armor value between 10% and ~55% (where it lets you survive 2 hits) is largely wasted (it makes healing easier, but otherwise won't let you live long). On the other hand if an attack does 25 damage and characters have 100 HP, 1% lets a character survive another hit, but the next won't come till over 35% reduction, and the next won't come till even further, and is turning 4 hits till death into 5 hits significant in the first place? Armor as damage reduction requires damage sponges to "work" mathwise.

You are over complicating it because you are basing it off different systems. Games like AoD already have systems that work better; light armour and heavy armour is balanced by dodge, block, action points, and DR. Go play the demo if you want to test it.

Armour progression is still there, you have hardness and durability etc.

Point being there are already systems that work and are better. Way more thematic and interesting than D&D antiquated system. D&D stick to it because the don’t want to turn away the players who don’t like change. Sure for tabletop it’s easier to calculate but there’s no excuse in computer games.

The argument that it doesn’t work or is too complicated is just a silly one because it already exists. People are just being traditionalists
The idea that different armor types provide similar protection in aggregate via dodge or something else is silly.

Plate armor doesn't turn you into a statue, and if the trade-offs were anywhere near equal in value nobody would ever have bothered to craft plate armor or weave chainmail.
Cool let’s have a system where full plate protects from weapon blows and isn’t calculated the exact same as someone evading being attacked.

The original complaint is basically that armour class is represented as missing a blow rather than absorbing or deflecting it which is what armour does. That doesn’t mean someone in armour cant block, parry, or evade.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,832
From the top of my head, I think the most INFURIATING mechanic is when the game is not only filled with trashmobs instead of proper encounters, but they also respawn and you're expected to backtrack. I can think of nothing more tedious than wading through the same trash encounters over and over again – JRPGs are particularly rife with this, I guess Japs like this sort of thing for some reason, but I drop the game instantly whenever I see this occuring.

Next there's shit like what seems to be industry-wide utter resignation at having any kind of economy in the game. Money is basically worthless points that don't matter in most RPGs, as not only are you rich enough to buy absolutely anything you may wish for within the first hour of the game, but there's not even anything good to buy in the first place – you're expected to collect all your gear from chest and dead enemies. Why even put so much fucking effort into having 200 different kinds of junk items to collect and sell, estabilishing weight limits, setting up vendors, negotiating for more money from quests (LOL!), specific "valuables" drops and all this shit, if you render it all completely worthless by your non-existent design of the economy? The player should want and NEED money, he should be sorely tempted to let the villain go if the villain offers him some money in exchange for his life, he should scrounge every location from top to bottom in search for anything to sell, he should jump up and down with excitement the moment he finds a gemstone. But no, instead we get this entire mountain of mechanics connected to trade and itemization, only for the majority of both to be basically thrown out the window like this.

I'm not even going to touch on crafting. Luckily it can usually be safely ignored with no adverse effects on the game other than various "crafting component" garbage lying about.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,367
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Damage thresholds can lead to funny unrealistic realisms same as AC (ie % reduction of any hit independent of power of said hit looks weird).

That's why you should have a flat amount of damage reduction not %. Helmet that decreases all damage received by 5 doesn't cause mentioned problems.
And instead causes more serious problems of requiring characters eat tons of hits like nothing. It's also really whacky to balance since early armor can't have significant DR which makes it worthless. It only kinda works in games with non-human units where armor is a weight consideration (light, medium, heavy) rather than something that progresses as the game goes on.

I don’t see the issue. Light armours restrict movement and agility less, ie bowmen and scouts who can travel or retreat faster and further with less fatigue. Heavier armours are costly and not something adventurers would start with unless coming from wealth or nobility. Then there’s magical enhancements to armours which give you progression. The whole point of armour is to mitigate hits.

aka the D&D AC system is antiquated and painfully unrealistic when used in computer games. A full plate tower shield fighter uses the same armour system as a 30 dex elf in red undies. One would realistically be harder to corner and hit and the other would be much harder to physically damage yet with the AC system they are calculated the same.

Think about it for a few seconds. How much damage does a single hit do, how much HP does a character have, and how much reduction is needed to make the armor's damage reduction meaningful? Can't be too low or the armor does nothing, can't be too high or armor is everything. Then try working out how you increase the armor's effectivness without breaking that careful balance.

Look at the extreme examples. If an attack does 110 and character typically have 100 HP, that means armor needs to reduce damage by 10% to be worthwhile (turn death into survival), but then any armor value between 10% and ~55% (where it lets you survive 2 hits) is largely wasted (it makes healing easier, but otherwise won't let you live long). On the other hand if an attack does 25 damage and characters have 100 HP, 1% lets a character survive another hit, but the next won't come till over 35% reduction, and the next won't come till even further, and is turning 4 hits till death into 5 hits significant in the first place? Armor as damage reduction requires damage sponges to "work" mathwise.

The problem is you are taking a more realistic armor system, yet keep applying it to the same old HP system.

Change how health works, and the armor system becomes a lot more useful.

Let's take a blood loss system instead, for example. A successful hit will cause a bleeding wound. The depth of the wound determines how much blood is lost per turn. To stop the blood loss you need to apply a bandage or seal the wound with healing magic, which is not always possible in the middle of a fight. Armor that can entirely block a strike or brake its force so it inflicts only a lighter wound would be of extremely high value in such a system. Add other wound effects that can reduce your combat effectiveness, such as a wound in the arm reducing the force behind your strikes, and armor becomes even more valuable. Then make the armor system locational and you have a trade off between full protection and mobility. Do you only wear a breastplate and helmet because those areas of your body are the largest and easiest to hit, and can suffer the worst wounds, while keeping your limbs free? Do you try to penetrate an enemy's breastplate to go for the heart, or will you try to wear him down by hits to the unprotected arms and legs? Having a dozen shallow wounds on your arms will still wear you down from blood loss, but maybe you can outlast your fully armored opponent in the fatigue department because he carries more weight and therefore exhausts more quickly.

Don't just slap a complex armor system on existing HP systems that are all about reducing a big number from 100 to 0. Re-think how health and stamina work.
You niggers really need to play some Kenshi.
 

Inconceivable

Learned
Joined
Aug 31, 2020
Messages
251
Location
Germany
You niggers really need to play some Kenshi.

Indeed. This is on my top list of games to play. But like modded Skyrim VR or finally dropping myself into a binge-watching orgy of The Mandalorian, I'm still always waiting for the day when I will have enough consecutive free time to really sink into it. But I'm afraid I will have to wait until my kids are all grown up and I'm all grown old for that day to come.
 

Humbaba

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,940
Location
SADAT HQ
1. Rolling for skill checks in dialogue instead of a minimum stat requirement like how the IE games did it.

2. Abandoning pre-rendered sprites for full 3D graphics.
 

0sacred

poop retainer
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
1,412
Location
MFGA (Make Fantasy Great Again)
Codex Year of the Donut
Altering your game mechanics significantly over the course of several updates. I'm thinking of PoE 1+2 in particular. It's just barely acceptable for Early Access titles, but not for full release patches. My PoE backer manual is now complete fluff only good for its nostalgic value.
 

Arbiter

Scholar
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
2,513
Location
Poland
Primitive technology in sci-fi settings:
- flashlight batteries lasting for mere minutes (typical in horror/survival themed games)
- stealth possible without relying on any technology (cloaking fields, etc.) in presence of highly advanced adversaries that should have access to scanners, infrared, targeting systems, sound processing software etc.
 

quixotic

Learned
Joined
Sep 13, 2021
Messages
231
Location
Leafland
During character creation, where there is a Voice option.
And there is no option for “None”, so you have to pick between different flavours of overacted shit.
Looking at you D:OS2.
 

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