Kliwer
Savant
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
- Messages
- 215
Inspired by another thread on this forum (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/thieves-dont-let-them-get-away-with-it.202/page-3), I would like to create a list of cRPGs in which non-combat skills play a vital role.
Criteria:
- The game mechanics must include non-combat skills;
- There must be at least a few of these non-combat skills. Ideally, one character/team cannot have all of them during one game.
- Non-combat skills must play an important role in the game. This very general criterion can be understood as:
a) non-combat skills allow for alternative quest solutions (not worse or even better than combat);
b) certain non-combat skills allow access to new content (quests, locations, loot etc.);
c) the lack of certain non-combat skills makes the game much more difficult or impossible to finish;
d) having/not having certain non-combat skills significantly changes the nature of the game.
When choosing, you should also consider the following factors:
- The use of non-combat skills should not be just a flavor;
- Alternative quest solutions that don't depend on skills don't count;
- Non-combat spells can count;
- Pure attribute checks are a bit different thing and doesn't really count.
I arbitrarily divide the mentioned games into three categories:
a) GOLD - high impact. Non-combat skills are practically essential in the game.
b) SILVER - moderate impact. Non-combat skills are used a lot, but you can manage without them.
c) BROWN (ye, brown, not bronze). Rejected. Games only seemingly meeting the criteria.
Please - spend a few words to justify your opinions and polemics with the opinions of others. Don't shoot your title lists without justification.
EDIT: Upon reflection, I think that one more distinction needs to be added to the list:
a) player's initiative (PI)
b) developer initiative (DI)
When non-combat skills are used on the initiative of the developer (DI), there is no system behind these skills. The player simply has the possibility to select an option from a list from time to time. Example: the Speech skill in Fallout can only be used when the creators anticipated it (selecting the appropriate dialogue line).
When non-combat skills are used on the initiative of the player (PI) - the player has the option to activate the skills at any time, or based on a systematic system. Example: Persuasion in Morrowin/Oblivion can be used on any character at any time.
Of course, many games have both. For example, pickpocketing in most games (like in BG) can be "used" at any time on any character. However, the point is to define the dominant method.
To start with something:
GOLD:
- Realms of Arkania 1-2 (possibly 3, I didn't play - could someone comment this?).
The only games I know where non-combat skills are essential and as important as combat skills. These games have a huge amount of non-combat skills. It is true that only about 30% of them really have some meaning and are used often. Survival skills (treat diseases, herb lore etc.) are essential to keep your team alive. Exploration skills (perception, danger sense, lockpicking) are very important in exploring dungeons. Skills related to obtaining money (pickpocketing, haggle, to a lesser extent, e.g. dancing) play an important role in the economy of the game. Some spells are used in plot events, but usually only in single cases (removing the poltergeist, disguising some characters in some locations). Social skills (streetwise, human nature etc.) are sometimes used in random encounters, mainly as a flavor.
[mostly PI]
SILVER:
- Arcanum.
On the one hand, the game is great in this respect. On the other - disappointing. Persuasion plays the biggest role in alternative quests solutions. Thieving skills can also influence our approach to quests (plus they unlock some special content). Many abilities that should be important are practically never used (healing, gambling, repair). You can almost never use spells as a quest solution, as well as tech skills (the game world does react to our preference for magic/technology - but these are mostly minor flavors.)
[DI, but also some PI]
- Fallout 1-2.
Non-combat skills are used quite often, although less often than we would like. As in Arcanum - persuasion reigns. I once played a character who had developed scientific and medical skills - and I didn't see many new possibilities versus the typical small-guns + persuasion build.
[DI, but also some minor PI]
- Drakensang: River of Time
Heir to the Realms of Arkania. There are many non-combat skills, and they also play a role in quests (mainly social skills). Pickpocketing is useful (it gives a lot of money), although it has no story use. Other skills have only apparent or minimal utility. Crafting is actually an element of the combat system, and it is supported by as many as 6 skills (alchemy, bowyery, blacksmithing; + animal lore, herbal lore and survival, which only provide crafting ingredients). It looks better on paper than it actually is.
[only DI]
- Might and Magic 2-5
They are on the list only due to huge impact of exploration skills (mountaineer, swimming etc.) and spells (teleportation, jump, levitation etc.). Maybe it’s not much, but it makes exploration aspect of this games unique and the best in this genre. In fact those exploration skills and spells are essential for gameplay, but are also too one-dimensional to qualify for GOLD category.
[PI]
BROWN:
- Gothic 1-2.
Yes, I love these games. They offer us some alternative paths. But neither of them pertains to skills. All of our character's skills relate to combat, crafting (for me it's part of the combat system) or gaining money (all hunting abilities). Only thieving abilities (in G2) unlock small additional content (quests, loot), but this is not enough.
-Baldur's Gate 1.
You can use the Charm spell on almost any character for a bit of flavor. Thieving skills have a niche use in quests (pickpocketing). Thieves' abilities give you access to several side quests (thieves guild). All this, however, has a negligible impact on the gameplay. There is even less of this in BG2.
So please - add your suggestions. And argue.
Criteria:
- The game mechanics must include non-combat skills;
- There must be at least a few of these non-combat skills. Ideally, one character/team cannot have all of them during one game.
- Non-combat skills must play an important role in the game. This very general criterion can be understood as:
a) non-combat skills allow for alternative quest solutions (not worse or even better than combat);
b) certain non-combat skills allow access to new content (quests, locations, loot etc.);
c) the lack of certain non-combat skills makes the game much more difficult or impossible to finish;
d) having/not having certain non-combat skills significantly changes the nature of the game.
When choosing, you should also consider the following factors:
- The use of non-combat skills should not be just a flavor;
- Alternative quest solutions that don't depend on skills don't count;
- Non-combat spells can count;
- Pure attribute checks are a bit different thing and doesn't really count.
I arbitrarily divide the mentioned games into three categories:
a) GOLD - high impact. Non-combat skills are practically essential in the game.
b) SILVER - moderate impact. Non-combat skills are used a lot, but you can manage without them.
c) BROWN (ye, brown, not bronze). Rejected. Games only seemingly meeting the criteria.
Please - spend a few words to justify your opinions and polemics with the opinions of others. Don't shoot your title lists without justification.
EDIT: Upon reflection, I think that one more distinction needs to be added to the list:
a) player's initiative (PI)
b) developer initiative (DI)
When non-combat skills are used on the initiative of the developer (DI), there is no system behind these skills. The player simply has the possibility to select an option from a list from time to time. Example: the Speech skill in Fallout can only be used when the creators anticipated it (selecting the appropriate dialogue line).
When non-combat skills are used on the initiative of the player (PI) - the player has the option to activate the skills at any time, or based on a systematic system. Example: Persuasion in Morrowin/Oblivion can be used on any character at any time.
Of course, many games have both. For example, pickpocketing in most games (like in BG) can be "used" at any time on any character. However, the point is to define the dominant method.
To start with something:
GOLD:
- Realms of Arkania 1-2 (possibly 3, I didn't play - could someone comment this?).
The only games I know where non-combat skills are essential and as important as combat skills. These games have a huge amount of non-combat skills. It is true that only about 30% of them really have some meaning and are used often. Survival skills (treat diseases, herb lore etc.) are essential to keep your team alive. Exploration skills (perception, danger sense, lockpicking) are very important in exploring dungeons. Skills related to obtaining money (pickpocketing, haggle, to a lesser extent, e.g. dancing) play an important role in the economy of the game. Some spells are used in plot events, but usually only in single cases (removing the poltergeist, disguising some characters in some locations). Social skills (streetwise, human nature etc.) are sometimes used in random encounters, mainly as a flavor.
[mostly PI]
SILVER:
- Arcanum.
On the one hand, the game is great in this respect. On the other - disappointing. Persuasion plays the biggest role in alternative quests solutions. Thieving skills can also influence our approach to quests (plus they unlock some special content). Many abilities that should be important are practically never used (healing, gambling, repair). You can almost never use spells as a quest solution, as well as tech skills (the game world does react to our preference for magic/technology - but these are mostly minor flavors.)
[DI, but also some PI]
- Fallout 1-2.
Non-combat skills are used quite often, although less often than we would like. As in Arcanum - persuasion reigns. I once played a character who had developed scientific and medical skills - and I didn't see many new possibilities versus the typical small-guns + persuasion build.
[DI, but also some minor PI]
- Drakensang: River of Time
Heir to the Realms of Arkania. There are many non-combat skills, and they also play a role in quests (mainly social skills). Pickpocketing is useful (it gives a lot of money), although it has no story use. Other skills have only apparent or minimal utility. Crafting is actually an element of the combat system, and it is supported by as many as 6 skills (alchemy, bowyery, blacksmithing; + animal lore, herbal lore and survival, which only provide crafting ingredients). It looks better on paper than it actually is.
[only DI]
- Might and Magic 2-5
They are on the list only due to huge impact of exploration skills (mountaineer, swimming etc.) and spells (teleportation, jump, levitation etc.). Maybe it’s not much, but it makes exploration aspect of this games unique and the best in this genre. In fact those exploration skills and spells are essential for gameplay, but are also too one-dimensional to qualify for GOLD category.
[PI]
BROWN:
- Gothic 1-2.
Yes, I love these games. They offer us some alternative paths. But neither of them pertains to skills. All of our character's skills relate to combat, crafting (for me it's part of the combat system) or gaining money (all hunting abilities). Only thieving abilities (in G2) unlock small additional content (quests, loot), but this is not enough.
-Baldur's Gate 1.
You can use the Charm spell on almost any character for a bit of flavor. Thieving skills have a niche use in quests (pickpocketing). Thieves' abilities give you access to several side quests (thieves guild). All this, however, has a negligible impact on the gameplay. There is even less of this in BG2.
So please - add your suggestions. And argue.
Last edited: