World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Storyfag]

For example, you can't call something a "Clan" if its members don't share a common fucking bloodline from the same progenitor, ffs.

But... the vast majority of the Hecata are descendants of Cappadocius? After all, every Giovanni did. Only the Nagaraja are the odd ones. Now, the "mysteriosu clanwide changes to the blood" is a much, much dumber concept than a Cappadocian-Giovanni reunion.

but the end result is just unbearable trash, both mechanically

Hmm... IDK. I like a lot of the mechanical changes they brought. Vicissitude as a cross between Protean and Dominate is splendid. The new hunger mechanism is very neat.

Keep in mind I am still wary of V5 and still reading up on the system, so perhaps I haven't found the CAINEDAMMITSTUPIDONTHELEVELOFGROUTSWIFEASABOSSFIGHT yet. Just saying I watched a couple of very nicely done PnP sessions utilising that version.

 

[J1M]

Eh, I've already seen good PnP sessions utilising V5. While the basic premise IS trash, V5 still retains the majority of the juicy details earlier editions had. Just avoid stuff like Rudi and all will be well.

Meh, V5 is essentially a soft reboot of the entire Masquerade lore/metaplot, but the end result is just unbearable trash, both mechanically and lore-wise. For example, you can't call something a "Clan" if its members don't share a common fucking bloodline from the same progenitor, ffs.

If you want to do away with all the bloat of Masquerade's overarching metaplot, just play Requiem instead - it's both better mechanically and it's more internally consistent than V5, and I'm saying this as someone who very much dislikes Requiem.

Or just ignore those parts of the metaplot at your table instead of playing an emo version of a game you like.

 

[Lambach]

But... the vast majority of the Hecata are descendants of Cappadocius?

Yes, but not all. Ergo, they're not a "Clan", they're a "Sect", like the Camarilla or the Sabbat. Even the most "improper" Clan that actually stole their immortality from a a non-related Antediluvian, i.e. the Tremere, still trace their roots to the same person down the line. And like you said:

Now, the "mysteriosu clanwide changes to the blood" is a much, much dumber concept than a Cappadocian-Giovanni reunion.

This is just incredibly lazy writing and a sorry excuse for said lazy writers to bundle a bunch of Clans, Bloodlines and Disciplines together because they couldn't be arsed to make them work separately under the new mechanics and lore.

Vicissitude as a cross between Protean and Dominate is splendid.

Bleh, I wasn't too hot on the concept of "Vicissitude is an alien parasite infecting those who practice it", but the V5 version makes it just too bland and boring. Instead of this cool, weird thing that this one Clan became suddenly proficient at relatively recently (as Old Clan Tzimizce don't have it as an in-Clan Discipline) that you could explain in many different ways and it made for a signature trademark of said Clan, now you have just.... a combo of two common Disciplines. Hooray. How exciting.

The new hunger mechanism is very neat.

Maybe I'm just too used to how the previous versions worked, but this mechanic doesn't make a lick of sense to me. A Vampire is a goddamn walking corpse. The only thing keeping it conscious and in motion is that magical/cursed blood flowing through its veins. It keeps it going like fuel keeps a car running. You don't roll a bunch of dice to see if driving 50 miles will make your car spend an X amount of fuel, you know it will. Which is why the Blood Pool mechanic made a lot more sense than this crap that was introduced, allegedly, to add extra "drama and struggle".

 

[Delterius]

i believe

 

[Lambach]

In Cleve.

 

[Delterius]

no, in bloodlines 2

 

[Storyfag]

But... the vast majority of the Hecata are descendants of Cappadocius?

Yes, but not all. Ergo, they're not a "Clan", they're a "Sect", like the Camarilla or the Sabbat. Even the most "improper" Clan that actually stole their immortality from a a non-related Antediluvian, i.e. the Tremere, still trace their roots to the same person down the line. And like you said:

Ah, this. Do note that Tremere and his 7 Councillors were all turned into Cainites in the same ritual, so in fact not all Usurpers can trace their line to the same person, their oh-so-vaunted "founder". Etrius, Goratrix, Meerlinda, etc were not Tremere's Childer. You could argue they can all trace their line to the Tzimisce Roland whose 2 Childer were consumed during the Ritual of Usurpation, and so through his Sire Vladimir Rustovich all the way to the Eldest. In fact I still consider them nothing more but a wayward Bloodline of the Tzimisce. But it cannot be said they all trace their line to Tremere himself.

cool, weird thing that this one Clan became suddenly proficient at relatively recently (as Old Clan Tzimizce don't have it as an in-Clan Discipline)

Which is pretty inconsistent with the fact that every known Methuselah and the Eldest itself are proficient in it

In any case, I will not weep for clan-unique Disciplines. They remain as clan-unique specific powers, and that is good enough for me. A Ventrue won't be able to learn Vicissitude just because a Gangrel taught him Protean, he'll still have to seek a Tzimisce for instruction.

the Blood Pool mechanic made a lot more sense than this crap that was introduced, allegedly, to add extra "drama and struggle".

I've seen it work. First, it does away with the Blood Pool being mana by another name. Second, it plays into the concept of the Beast really well.

Granted, there are situations in which hunger should increase automatically, not as result of a roll. But oh well.

 

[Lambach]

In any case, I will not weep for clan-unique Disciplines. They remain as clan-unique specific powers, and that is good enough for me. A Ventrue won't be able to learn Vicissitude just because a Gangrel taught him Protean, he'll still have to seek a Tzimisce for instruction.

I dunno, to me it feels like lumping a bunch of Disciplines together and sorta-kinda separating them as different sub-powers feels lazy and causes a loss of flavor. The new "Oblivion" Discipline especially burns my ass in this regard.

I've seen it work. First, it does away with the Blood Pool being mana by another name.

But that's kinda what it's supposed to be. The Hunger mechanic makes blood more similar to a drug that a junkie needs for his fix (which was also true to a certain extent in the pre-V5 versions), rather than an absolute necessity that keeps a walking corpse walking, like oxygen keeps a living thing living.

 

[Semiurge]

Giving it to a studio that the Paradox's CEO considers a "very reputable developer" has an absolute, 100% infallible chance of resulting in a game so mediocre and boring that it won't be worth anyone's time to even make fun o
of it, let alone anything else.

Remember that recent werewolf game? I didn't think so. That is BL2's future.

 

[Ismaul]

So this already is yesterday's news... I was coming here to share lol

I bet the pitch Paradox liked is a Vampire Royale bullshit thing. Like the Microsoft Shadowrun, but updated for current year. Printin dolla bills y'all, to recoup from that Hardsuit hardship!

It will either be this, or worse: they'll actually try to appeal to RPG players, and make the worst SJW-infested Vampire fanfiction we've had. And they'll say: "Hey boy, this is what you wanted yeah? We did ya a favor so how about you buy it and enjoy it! Don't be a hater now!" And everyone will love it and hail it as the second coming of RPGs, while we sit here in disgust.

 

[Duraframe300]

So this already is yesterday's news... I was coming here to share lol

I bet the pitch Paradox liked is a Vampire Royale bullshit thing. Like the Microsoft Shadowrun, but updated for current year. Printin dolla bills y'all, to recoup from that Hardsuit hardship!

...

Uhm , that's already released in early access. Why would they make a second one?

 

[santino27]

So this already is yesterday's news... I was coming here to share lol

I bet the pitch Paradox liked is a Vampire Royale bullshit thing. Like the Microsoft Shadowrun, but updated for current year. Printin dolla bills y'all, to recoup from that Hardsuit hardship!

It will either be this, or worse: they'll actually try to appeal to RPG players, and make the worst SJW-infested Vampire fanfiction we've had. And they'll say: "Hey boy, this is what you wanted yeah? We did ya a favor so how about you buy it and enjoy it! Don't be a hater now!" And everyone will love it and hail it as the second coming of RPGs, while we sit here in disgust.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/760160/Vampire_The_Masquerade__Bloodhunt/

 

[Ismaul]

Shiiieeet ok then. Been out of the loop on this for a while.

Still, if that's what Paradox aims at, that and shitty VNs, we shouldn't expect much from Bloodlines 2. The worse scenario I talked about is most likely it then. Fits with V5's audience anyways.

 

[LizardWizard]

5 years of game development in the garbage. And Wester still thinks this will turn profitable?

Paradox is bloated enough to absorb that loss, but the fact they're still pretending is absolutely hilarious.

 

[Vincente]

5 years of game development in the garbage

Not all 5 years per se, they might use some things from Hardsuit version, art concept here, quest concept there...

 

[Wesp5]

didn't want the game they ordered at the beginning

What do you mean?

I don't know, but my guess would be that it was not about the fighting, because why fire Mitsoda who could have nothing to do with that? My guess would be that they originally wanted a game like Bloodlines with all the dark WoD stuff, remember Gimble amputating people, Vandal draining innocents, Grout lobotomizing patients into monsters, the serial killer skinning and beheading people, making a model commit suicide, searching a snuff tape and more, besides the player being able to be good or bad themselfes. They reached alpha and then probably someone high up at Paradox said that much of what Mitsoda wrote wasn't politically correct and had to go, to which he resisted, so they fired him and the director he pitched the game with and who probably had his back too. This is all pure speculation though...

 

[Wesp5]

Apparently Paradox's CEO considered shutting the game down completely when they dropped HardSuit Labs, but eventually "received an interesting pitch" by a "very reputable and talented developer who has made a number of different games before.".

They hired Cleve, didn't they?

Was this the Assassins Creed guy supposed to fix the game up to force it out? It seems he took a look and left, because he thought is was unsalvageable, which I think could only be because of gameplay problems and not writing. But it just occurred to me, how could anybody give Paradox "an interesting pitch", when nobody outside even knows what happened until today? I mean the Assassins Creed guy probably could do it or maybe some other studio they hired for beta testing or such?

 

[prengle]

paradox should really reconsider that decision they made :3c

 

[Wesp5]

There are rumours on Reddit that "The Chinese Room" might be the new developer: https://www.reddit.com/r/vtmb/comments/q803fh/paradox_ceo_fredrik_wester_tells_swedish_paper/
I don't know if that would work. In my opinion they haven't even made a game with gameplay. Dear Esther and Eveybody has Gone to the Rapture were nothing but overhyped walking simulators, the latter one like the Amnesia episode just had an unfightable enemy if I remember correctly, so the only gameplay would be to walk or run away! How they should be able to fix the probably broken gameplay of Bloodlines 2 is beyond me.

 

[Larianshill]

Maybe a walking simulator is just what they want.

 

[Dodo1610]

I expected it would be one of the bigger suport/port studios like: Sumo Digital,Splash Damage. Saber Interactive or Wushu
Those are already experienced with working with other people's code.

And The Chinese room is owned by Sumo Digital.

 

[Storyfag]

hey reached alpha and then probably someone high up at Paradox said that much of what Mitsoda wrote wasn't politically correct and had to go, to which he resisted, so they fired him and the director he pitched the game with and who probably had his back too. This is all pure speculation though...

I'm afraid interviews given by Mitsoda and that dangerhair thing that co-written things before all the drama even started heavily suggested that the writing WAS politically correct. So your speculation is very, very optimistic.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Maybe a walking simulator is just what they want.

More like they want to slap all the salvageable pieces of the original game into a walking simulator. The prototype already functions as a walking simulator with shit combat anyway.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Paradox is maintaining the masquerade very well apparently. Not a leak, not a word from anyone, all speculation.

 

[Caim]

Apparently Paradox's CEO considered shutting the game down completely when they dropped HardSuit Labs, but eventually "received an interesting pitch" by a "very reputable and talented developer who has made a number of different games before.".

They hired Cleve, didn't they?

Was this the Assassins Creed guy supposed to fix the game up to force it out? It seems he took a look and left, because he thought is was unsalvageable, which I think could only be because of gameplay problems and not writing. But it just occurred to me, how could anybody give Paradox "an interesting pitch", when nobody outside even knows what happened until today? I mean the Assassins Creed guy probably could do it or maybe some other studio they hired for beta testing or such?

No, I'm talking about Cleveland Mark Blakemore of Grimoire fame.