CRPGAddict

[octavius]

Just add zombies. Or is that fad over now?

 

[felipepepe]

I went back to check CGW, Shattered Lands got a very positive review from Scorpia, who nitpicked on some stuff like armor & bugs but, like octavius, called it a more mature game that focuses more on story & quests and less on combat (compared to the Gold Box games). It also appears as the 3rd best selling PC game in one of the next issues, but never made into the reader popularity polls.

Since it got a sequel, I assume it sold well enough, the real issue might be just that people weren't impressed with it. I also bounced off at first, since I hate its combat UI.

The sequel got a much more negative reception, Scorpia saying that the story is boring and doesn't do anything with the setting, as well as being plagued by bugs.... they needed an amazing game to stand out among games like Doom, Lands of Lore and Arena in 1994, but got a weaker one that to this day has a bad rep...

 

[mondblut]

If SSI had released Greyhawk: Shattered Lands or --- God forbid! --- Forgotten Realms: Shattered Lands, then quite possibly it would have sold much better, TSR would have continued to entrust SSI with an exclusive license for D&D/AD&D, and perhaps SSI would have survived much longer, even to the present day.

TSR itself has folded only a few years later, duh.

 

[JarlFrank]

I went back to check CGW, Shattered Lands got a very positive review from Scorpia, who nitpicked on some stuff like armor & bugs but, like octavius, called it a more mature game that focuses more on story & quests and less on combat (compared to the Gold Box games). It also appears as the 3rd best selling PC game in one of the next issues, but never made into the reader popularity polls.

Since it got a sequel, I assume it sold well enough, the real issue might be just that people weren't impressed with it. I also bounced off at first, since I hate its combat UI.

The sequel got a much more negative reception, Scorpia saying that the story is boring and doesn't do anything with the setting, as well as being plagued by bugs.... they needed an amazing game to stand out among games like Doom, Lands of Lore and Arena in 1994, but got a weaker one that to this day has a bad rep...

Wake of the Ravager definitely failed because of the bugs. Back in 1994, most people didn't have internet, and those who did had expensive and slow-ass dial up connections. Not exactly great conditions for releasing a buggy mess of a game that requires a dozen patches to fix. Today patching is easy... back then? Most people only got the game as it came in the box.

And even then, there never was a patch that completely fixed all the bugs. Even the most up to date patched version has game breaking bugs that can get you stuck.

It's no wonder that the sequel tanked. And I avoided playing it for a long time because of that, too.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

So still a bug? Yeah, I started it but got sidetracked.

 

[Tweed]

Just add zombies. Or is that fad over now?

We're in the dinosaurs phase again right now, give it a view more years.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Just add zombies. Or is that fad over now?

We're in the dinosaurs phase again right now, give it a view more years.

ZOMBIES ARE ALWAYS A THING!

Now zombie dinosaurs.... hmmmm.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

How much did the setting impact the Dark Sun games' financial success, or lack of it?

Personally when I played the first DS game back in the days I don't recall the setting influencing me one way or the other (it was still Fantasy), but I was disappointed by the lack of proper GB combat and I didn't play it very far.
When I played it properly some years ago, I was disappointed that not more was done with the setting. Why does lack of water play no role, for example?
Also, the lack of fog of war bothered me, as well as the very uneven combat difficulty. Most of the game the combat is too easy, so I found it hard to "stay sharp".
And "psi" always tend to bore me, both in games and in SF.

So to me the only real incline compared to the GB games was the better dialogue and quest systems.

And I think the Dark Sun franchise was at least partly ruined by all the bugs in the second game.

As a D&D/AD&D aficionado, I care more about the gameplay aspects than the setting, but I expect a large portion of the potential CRPG audience was put off by the setting's unconventional nature. Also, the presence (and importance) of psionics is particular to the Dark Sun setting (the other AD&D settings had effectively dropped psionics, which only made an appearance in 2nd edition AD&D with the optional psionics handbook released in 1991 just before the Dark Sun setting box set), and similarly there are races particular to the setting (half-giants and thri-kreen as playable) with alterations to other races, changes to existing classes, changes to weapons and armor availability, and so forth.

 

[mondblut]

I expect a large portion of the potential CRPG audience was put off by the setting's unconventional nature.

That's true, I hated Dark Sun setting when it first came out. WTF is this camel jockey desert shit with bugs and bone weapons, give me my Forgotten Middlearth.

In fact, this is where I stand to this day

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I picture this now that you mention it:

My Darksun lore is rusty but is that a crodlu pack animal?

edit... seems so.

"Crodlu are reptilian ostriches which are used as mounts in Athas.

The crodlu is a large, flightless drake with weak, clawed forearms. Some are bred and trained to bear humanoids, yet even those are aggressive and unpredictable. A smaller version, the Erdlu, can be ridden by small riders but is too skittish to be trained for war."

More Dark Fun & the Novels

Novels in order

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Looked at CRPGAddict's Ultima reviews. For both Ultima 6 and Ultima Underworld he picked the black guy as his character. If he had played Serpent Isle we'd be able to establish a concrete trend but for now I'm still

 

[mondblut]

If he had played Serpent Isle we'd be able to establish a concrete trend but for now I'm still

Wanna bet?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Uh WTF is he wearing? Tights and a dual garter, purple plate and a chain skirt? Uh.... wtf!?

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Actually, the big problem TSR had at this time was campaign setting bloat. They were putting stuff out too fast; a lot of it very cool, but it was coming at fans too fast and furious for fans to absorb. Dark Sun just got lost. In just a six years TSR published the following campaigns:

Spelljammer (AD&D, 1989)
Hollow World (BECMI, 1990)
Dark Sun (AD&D, 1991)
Al-Qadim (AD&D, 1992)
Birthright (AD&D, 1994)
Council of Wyrms (AD&D, 1994)
Planescape (AD&D, 1994)

This is during a time when players were still conducting long campaigns using the Greyhawk (1980), Forgotten Realms (1980), Mystara (1981), Ravenloft (1983), and Dragonlace (1984) campaign settings. Now don't get me wrong, I love all of these campaign worlds, but there was no way that the settings published during those six years were ever going to succeed. TSR was just throwing stuff out there hoping to profit instead of just picking one or two of these new IPs and building up a fan base for them. At least WoTC did the smart thing and started off 3rd Edition with a familiar setting (Greyhawk) before putting their efforts into a single new campaign setting (Ebberon).

 

[mondblut]

Actually, the big problem TSR had at this time was campaign setting bloat. They were putting stuff out too fast; a lot of it very cool, but it was coming at fans too fast and furious for fans to absorb. Dark Sun just got lost. In just a six years TSR published the following campaigns:

Spelljammer (AD&D, 1989)
Hollow World (BECMI, 1990)
Dark Sun (AD&D, 1991)
Al-Qadim (AD&D, 1992)
Birthright (AD&D, 1994)
Council of Wyrms (AD&D, 1994)
Planescape (AD&D, 1994)

And that's why TSR will always be fondly remembered despite all missteps, while the current publishers of youtube show props will be long forgotten, absorbed in the portfolio of some "Goldberg, Heifitz and sons, LLC". They burned bright, like a star.

At least WoTC did the smart thing and started off 3rd Edition with a familiar setting (Greyhawk) before putting their efforts into a single new campaign setting (Ebberon).

We have a word for this smart thing, you know. Starts with "de", ends with "cline".

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Actually, the big problem TSR had at this time was campaign setting bloat. They were putting stuff out too fast; a lot of it very cool, but it was coming at fans too fast and furious for fans to absorb. Dark Sun just got lost. In just a six years TSR published the following campaigns:

Spelljammer (AD&D, 1989)
Hollow World (BECMI, 1990)
Dark Sun (AD&D, 1991)
Al-Qadim (AD&D, 1992)
Birthright (AD&D, 1994)
Council of Wyrms (AD&D, 1994)
Planescape (AD&D, 1994)

This is during a time when players were still conducting long campaigns using the Greyhawk (1980), Forgotten Realms (1980), Mystara (1981), Ravenloft (1983), and Dragonlace (1984) campaign settings. Now don't get me wrong, I love all of these campaign worlds, but there was no way that the settings published during those six years were ever going to succeed. TSR was just throwing stuff out there hoping to profit instead of just picking one or two of these new IPs and building up a fan base for them. At least WoTC did the smart thing and started off 3rd Edition with a familiar setting (Greyhawk) before putting their efforts into a single new campaign setting (Ebberon).

After shifting focus to campaign settings in 1987, TSR quickly made available new material for four conventional campaign settings:

• Greyhawk already had setting material by Gygax released in 1980 (the 32-page folio) and 1983 (the 128-page box set), but a further hardcover replacement written by Jim Ward was released in late-1988, which marked the resumption of Greyhawk material after an almost-complete hiatus for the three years following Gygax's ouster from TSR.
• Dragonlance existed as a series of adventure modules and an amazingly popular series of novels starting in 1984, but it now received a hardcover setting book in early 1987, and a relatively small quantity of other material was subsequently released.
• The Forgotten Realms was created by TSR to replace Greyhawk as the standard, default AD&D campaign setting, with a box set released in early 1987 followed by a flood of additional material, dwarfing the Greyhawk (discontinued in early 1994) and Dragonlance settings.
• D&D's Known World campaign setting received a series of gazetteers starting in early 1987, with each of the 14 gazetteers detailing a country (or group of countries), plus the Dawn of the Emperors box set in 1989, the Hollow World box set in 1990, and the Champions of Mystara box set in 1993; not to mention various adventure modules and accessories.

For that matter, TSR's Lankhmar/Nehwon material could be considered a fifth conventional setting, though this amounted to just 14 products released over a dozen years.
The Oriental Adventures spin-off (1985) also received a setting box set with the release of Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms in 1988, but this setting was now officially located in The Forgotten Realms as part of TSR's efforts to boost that setting above the others, and the Oriental Adventures modules soon came to an end in 1990.

TSR thought there was also a market for relatively unconventional settings, which it then began launching in 1989:

• Spelljammer in 1989 was AD&D in Space and was not only a setting in its own right but also offered a way to link existing AD&D settings via space travel; it was discontinued in 1994.
  
• Ravenloft in 1990 was an attempt to apply AD&D to gothic horror; probably the most commercially successful of all these unconventional settings.
• Dark Sun in 1991 was post-apocalyptic fantasy with a grittier survival feel.
• Al-Qadim in 1992 was sort of the Middle Eastern equivalent of the earlier Oriental Adventures; it started with two box sets (one for rules and one for settings) but was discontinued in 1994.
• Planescape in 1994 was an attempt to convert existing AD&D cosmology into a highly unconventional setting, with the city of Sigil created to serve as a faux-Victorian urban hub.
• Birthright in 1995 was an attempt to place dominion rulership as an integral part of the game rather than limited to higher-level play, with a setting to match.

TSR was fairly aggressive in promoting The Forgotten Realms over the rest of the campaign settings, even discontinuing its rival Greyhawk in 1994, and similarly dropped Spelljammer and Al-Qadim in 1994 due to low sales, while hoping some of the unconventional settings would be successful and broaden the reach of AD&D. Ravenloft, at least, fulfilled some of TSR's hopes, and Dark Sun still had multiple products released in 1996 just before TSR entered a financial crisis that destroyed the company. I think the real mistake made by TSR was to damage some of the settings by advancing their timelines and incorporating the outcomes of various adventures and novels into them, so that even the player-base of a specific setting was splintered. That and promoting the Forgotten Realms over Greyhawk and Dragonlance, while ultimately destroying the Known World / Mystara setting through a poorly-conceived attempt to shift it from D&D to AD&D.

 

[BruceVC]

Actually, the big problem TSR had at this time was campaign setting bloat. They were putting stuff out too fast; a lot of it very cool, but it was coming at fans too fast and furious for fans to absorb. Dark Sun just got lost. In just a six years TSR published the following campaigns:

Spelljammer (AD&D, 1989)
Hollow World (BECMI, 1990)
Dark Sun (AD&D, 1991)
Al-Qadim (AD&D, 1992)
Birthright (AD&D, 1994)
Council of Wyrms (AD&D, 1994)
Planescape (AD&D, 1994)

This is during a time when players were still conducting long campaigns using the Greyhawk (1980), Forgotten Realms (1980), Mystara (1981), Ravenloft (1983), and Dragonlace (1984) campaign settings. Now don't get me wrong, I love all of these campaign worlds, but there was no way that the settings published during those six years were ever going to succeed. TSR was just throwing stuff out there hoping to profit instead of just picking one or two of these new IPs and building up a fan base for them. At least WoTC did the smart thing and started off 3rd Edition with a familiar setting (Greyhawk) before putting their efforts into a single new campaign setting (Ebberon).

After shifting focus to campaign settings in 1987, TSR quickly made available new material for four conventional campaign settings:

• Greyhawk already had setting material by Gygax released in 1980 (the 32-page folio) and 1983 (the 128-page box set), but a further hardcover replacement written by Jim Ward was released in late-1988, which marked the resumption of Greyhawk material after an almost-complete hiatus for the three years following Gygax's ouster from TSR.
• Dragonlance existed as a series of adventure modules and an amazingly popular series of novels starting in 1984, but it now received a hardcover setting book in early 1987, and a relatively small quantity of other material was subsequently released.
• The Forgotten Realms was created by TSR to replace Greyhawk as the standard, default AD&D campaign setting, with a box set released in early 1987 followed by a flood of additional material, dwarfing the Greyhawk (discontinued in early 1994) and Dragonlance settings.
• D&D's Known World campaign setting received a series of gazetteers starting in early 1987, with each of the 14 gazetteers detailing a country (or group of countries), plus the Dawn of the Emperors box set in 1989, the Hollow World box set in 1990, and the Champions of Mystara box set in 1993; not to mention various adventure modules and accessories.

For that matter, TSR's Lankhmar/Nehwon material could be considered a fifth conventional setting, though this amounted to just 14 products released over a dozen years.
The Oriental Adventures spin-off (1985) also received a setting box set with the release of Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms in 1988, but this setting was now officially located in The Forgotten Realms as part of TSR's efforts to boost that setting above the others, and the Oriental Adventures modules soon came to an end in 1990.

TSR thought there was also a market for relatively unconventional settings, which it then began launching in 1989:

• Spelljammer in 1989 was AD&D in Space and was not only a setting in its own right but also offered a way to link existing AD&D settings via space travel; it was discontinued in 1994.
  
• Ravenloft in 1990 was an attempt to apply AD&D to gothic horror; probably the most commercially successful of all these unconventional settings.
• Dark Sun in 1991 was post-apocalyptic fantasy with a grittier survival feel.
• Al-Qadim in 1992 was sort of the Middle Eastern equivalent of the earlier Oriental Adventures; it started with two box sets (one for rules and one for settings) but was discontinued in 1994.
• Planescape in 1994 was an attempt to convert existing AD&D cosmology into a highly unconventional setting, with the city of Sigil created to serve as a faux-Victorian urban hub.
• Birthright in 1995 was an attempt to place dominion rulership as an integral part of the game rather than limited to higher-level play, with a setting to match.

TSR was fairly aggressive in promoting The Forgotten Realms over the rest of the campaign settings, even discontinuing its rival Greyhawk in 1994, and similarly dropped Spelljammer and Al-Qadim in 1994 due to low sales, while hoping some of the unconventional settings would be successful and broaden the reach of AD&D. Ravenloft, at least, fulfilled some of TSR's hopes, and Dark Sun still had multiple products released in 1996 just before TSR entered a financial crisis that destroyed the company. I think the real mistake made by TSR was to damage some of the settings by advancing their timelines and incorporating the outcomes of various adventures and novels into them, so that even the player-base of a specific setting was splintered. That and promoting the Forgotten Realms over Greyhawk and Dragonlance, while ultimately destroying the Known World / Mystara setting through a poorly-conceived attempt to shift it from D&D to AD&D.

I loved the world of Greyhawk, I remember when I first was able to start understanding it and I noticed they had the created the actual regions for " Against the Giants " and my favorite module of all time " Queen of the Spiders "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

But then TSR seemed to stop designing games for Greyhawk and I moved onto Forgotten Realms ...and I do consider Forgotten Realms my favorite setting of all time so I dont regret that

 

[Grauken]

I think the real mistake made by TSR was to damage some of the settings by advancing their timelines and incorporating the outcomes of various adventures and novels into them, so that even the player-base of a specific setting was splintered.

That's a cardinal mistake than many RPGs do, they often don't get that the initial setting description with all its flavor is essential to what drew people in, but then changing that setting with various narrative cruft into something that feels inferior (original Shadowrun versus how it developed over time) makes people lose interest in the setting

 

[rusty_shackleford]

TSR went under because of management, had nothing to do with product.

Fun fact: around the time the Blumes departed TSR, they had roughly 90 relatives on TSR's payroll.

 

[Thac0]

I think the real mistake made by TSR was to damage some of the settings by advancing their timelines and incorporating the outcomes of various adventures and novels into them, so that even the player-base of a specific setting was splintered.

That's a cardinal mistake than many RPGs do, they often don't get that the initial setting description with all its flavor is essential to what drew people in, but then changing that setting with various narrative cruft into something that feels inferior (original Shadowrun versus how it developed over time) makes people lose interest in the setting

Das Schwarze Auge...

 

[BruceVC]

TSR went under because of management, had nothing to do with product.

Fun fact: around the time the Blumes departed TSR, they had roughly 90 relatives on TSR's payroll.

That is interesting and explains their financial woes, nepotism 101

But on the other side of the coin TSR wasn't a listed company at the time, as far as I know, and you are allowed to hire family members because its your company ....you just need to ensure they competent

 

[BruceVC]

Actually, the big problem TSR had at this time was campaign setting bloat. They were putting stuff out too fast; a lot of it very cool, but it was coming at fans too fast and furious for fans to absorb. Dark Sun just got lost. In just a six years TSR published the following campaigns:

Spelljammer (AD&D, 1989)
Hollow World (BECMI, 1990)
Dark Sun (AD&D, 1991)
Al-Qadim (AD&D, 1992)
Birthright (AD&D, 1994)
Council of Wyrms (AD&D, 1994)
Planescape (AD&D, 1994)

This is during a time when players were still conducting long campaigns using the Greyhawk (1980), Forgotten Realms (1980), Mystara (1981), Ravenloft (1983), and Dragonlace (1984) campaign settings. Now don't get me wrong, I love all of these campaign worlds, but there was no way that the settings published during those six years were ever going to succeed. TSR was just throwing stuff out there hoping to profit instead of just picking one or two of these new IPs and building up a fan base for them. At least WoTC did the smart thing and started off 3rd Edition with a familiar setting (Greyhawk) before putting their efforts into a single new campaign setting (Ebberon).

After shifting focus to campaign settings in 1987, TSR quickly made available new material for four conventional campaign settings:

• Greyhawk already had setting material by Gygax released in 1980 (the 32-page folio) and 1983 (the 128-page box set), but a further hardcover replacement written by Jim Ward was released in late-1988, which marked the resumption of Greyhawk material after an almost-complete hiatus for the three years following Gygax's ouster from TSR.
• Dragonlance existed as a series of adventure modules and an amazingly popular series of novels starting in 1984, but it now received a hardcover setting book in early 1987, and a relatively small quantity of other material was subsequently released.
• The Forgotten Realms was created by TSR to replace Greyhawk as the standard, default AD&D campaign setting, with a box set released in early 1987 followed by a flood of additional material, dwarfing the Greyhawk (discontinued in early 1994) and Dragonlance settings.
• D&D's Known World campaign setting received a series of gazetteers starting in early 1987, with each of the 14 gazetteers detailing a country (or group of countries), plus the Dawn of the Emperors box set in 1989, the Hollow World box set in 1990, and the Champions of Mystara box set in 1993; not to mention various adventure modules and accessories.

For that matter, TSR's Lankhmar/Nehwon material could be considered a fifth conventional setting, though this amounted to just 14 products released over a dozen years.
The Oriental Adventures spin-off (1985) also received a setting box set with the release of Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms in 1988, but this setting was now officially located in The Forgotten Realms as part of TSR's efforts to boost that setting above the others, and the Oriental Adventures modules soon came to an end in 1990.

TSR thought there was also a market for relatively unconventional settings, which it then began launching in 1989:

• Spelljammer in 1989 was AD&D in Space and was not only a setting in its own right but also offered a way to link existing AD&D settings via space travel; it was discontinued in 1994.
  
• Ravenloft in 1990 was an attempt to apply AD&D to gothic horror; probably the most commercially successful of all these unconventional settings.
• Dark Sun in 1991 was post-apocalyptic fantasy with a grittier survival feel.
• Al-Qadim in 1992 was sort of the Middle Eastern equivalent of the earlier Oriental Adventures; it started with two box sets (one for rules and one for settings) but was discontinued in 1994.
• Planescape in 1994 was an attempt to convert existing AD&D cosmology into a highly unconventional setting, with the city of Sigil created to serve as a faux-Victorian urban hub.
• Birthright in 1995 was an attempt to place dominion rulership as an integral part of the game rather than limited to higher-level play, with a setting to match.

TSR was fairly aggressive in promoting The Forgotten Realms over the rest of the campaign settings, even discontinuing its rival Greyhawk in 1994, and similarly dropped Spelljammer and Al-Qadim in 1994 due to low sales, while hoping some of the unconventional settings would be successful and broaden the reach of AD&D. Ravenloft, at least, fulfilled some of TSR's hopes, and Dark Sun still had multiple products released in 1996 just before TSR entered a financial crisis that destroyed the company. I think the real mistake made by TSR was to damage some of the settings by advancing their timelines and incorporating the outcomes of various adventures and novels into them, so that even the player-base of a specific setting was splintered. That and promoting the Forgotten Realms over Greyhawk and Dragonlance, while ultimately destroying the Known World / Mystara setting through a poorly-conceived attempt to shift it from D&D to AD&D.

I just wanted to add I am really enjoying all this type of history about the much loved AD&D\D&D franchise that you and other members are sharing

Some of the worlds after Forgotten Realms I bought and we played, I was the DM. So I know about Ravenloft and Planescape as I integrated them into the Forgotten Realms as alternative realms and in the case of Ravenloft I designed an adventure once where the party were banished to Ravenloft due to a Gate spell that went wrong. And they had to return to Waterdeep, it was great fun

But I never designed games in any others like Dark Sun or Spelljammer

And now I am thinking I can at least play the Gold Set PC games just to try to recapture the experience.....what do you guys think?

 

[Mortmal]

And now I am thinking I can at least play the Gold Set PC games just to try to recapture the experience.....what do you guys think?

You dont need our permission to play them , you dont even have to raise your finger to go pee.... That said those games only capture a very little part of darksun.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Most people don't think of the other product Settings TSR dipped their hands into:

Gangbusters
TOP Secret
Gamma World
Metamorphosis Alpha
Alternity
Star Frontiers
BOOT Hill
Buck Rogers
Marvel Superheroes
Indiana Jones
Lazer Tag
Dragon Dice
Conan
Amazing Engine
Board Games like Dungeon/Fantasy Forest etc
Chainmail
Spellfire card game and more.

Wikipedia gives some (but i was part of the old Hobby Shop so lists there are cool
TSR archives hits your major stuff (needs updating). I picked up these two products that had listings that started me checking off products as I found them

Then searching and getting mail order catalogs. Good times.

RPG.net
TSR Archives
Older TSR Archives
The Acaeum for Collecting
I got banned from Dragonsfoot for being a dick so... eh. They aren't so free willed as the codex. Call staff woke fuckers and you get banned.
And more... just look around.

 

[BruceVC]

And now I am thinking I can at least play the Gold Set PC games just to try to recapture the experience.....what do you guys think?

You dont need our permission to play them , you dont even have to raise your finger to go pee.... That said those games only capture a very little part of darksun.

Yes I know I dont need your permission :D
I meant what do you think of the actual games, Ravenloft vs Dark Sun for example. I have never played any Gold Set before . I realized I didnt explain it properly, my bad