Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Warhammer Total War: Warhammer III

Demo.Graph

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
990
As correct as Volound is, he's screaming into the uncaring void. Fucking let it go.
That screaming wasn't in vain. I'm grateful to Justicar for posting them. That guy had verbalized some of the thoughts that were brewing inside my head, but I was too lazy to think through properly. I.e. "why I can still play Shogun 1, but get bored quickly from Shogun 2", "why I've autoresolved most battles in TWWH and can't be bothered to even pirate TWWH2".
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,837
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Fighting AI tzeen sounds like it will be rage-inducing.
The AI won't be able to handle these features and the majority of them will be useless to the player on VH and Legendary.
More likely the ai will use the scouting power to spot you from the other side of the world at turn 5, and then proceed to declare war, steal your cities and cause rebellions as soon as it gets enough grimoires.
 

Luka-boy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
1,629
Location
Asspain
Fighting AI tzeen sounds like it will be rage-inducing.
As it should be.
Just_as_planned_tzeentch.jpg
 

tabacila

Augur
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
326
I would care about Volound's complaints if this was any historical TW.
When it comes to WH I just want CA do release a game as optimized as possible, with as many races as possible, with as many many mechanics as possible and as moddable as possible. TW WH is the definition of 'good for what it is' for me.

As for historical games from CA, I pretty much gave up on those after Rome 2 came out.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
TW WH is the definition of 'good for what it is' for me.
But it's barely playable, though? The much vaunted variety comes down to reskinned units and campaign gimmicks of some LLs. The actual experience of playing the game is a bit simple and formulaic almost regardless of what you pick. The campaign map is sorely lacking in mechanics (and is somehow very ugly?) and all you do is move your army from one settlement to the next. Even Troy has better battle mechanics, unit variety, and diplomacy. I'm itching to play some old TW to see the differences for myself. Not to mention that Warhammer having "many races" has the consequence of wildly varying quality between them. The best designed race as a whole is arguably the Tomb Kings and the worst are obviously Norsca/Warriors of Chaos but also arguably the Wood Elves (to the point there is zero reason to play any other lord than the Sisters of Twilight). Given how there are so few battle mechanics and mechanical unit variety, I don't see why there are still races and LLs which are borderline unplayable 6 years after Warhammer 1's release. I don't know, it needs a major overhaul that we won't be getting with III and that's sad.
 

tabacila

Augur
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
326
Barely playable? Honestly I haven't sat down and analyzed why, but WH has been the most fun I've had playing 'newer' TW games in almost a decade. To each their own I guess.

Maybe it's because all the idiotic choices CA made with streamlining mechanics to appeal to a wider audience don't seem to bother me that much in these games compared to the historical ones. The lack of population mechanics, the extremely constraining building system with those awful slots, forcing armies to be centered around characters (mostly because the AI was shit at concentrating its forces), even the somewhat simplified combat mechanics. All these things grate me far less or I feel work OK with the WH setting.
Maybe I just love Franz too much #praiseSigmar.

CA is shit at delivering consistent quality with each race, but with the latest WE and BM reworks at least they seem willing to update even DLCs of older games, which is pretty great in my book.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
TW WH is the definition of 'good for what it is' for me.
But it's barely playable, though? The much vaunted variety comes down to reskinned units and campaign gimmicks of some LLs. The actual experience of playing the game is a bit simple and formulaic almost regardless of what you pick. The campaign map is sorely lacking in mechanics (and is somehow very ugly?) and all you do is move your army from one settlement to the next. Even Troy has better battle mechanics, unit variety, and diplomacy. I'm itching to play some old TW to see the differences for myself. Not to mention that Warhammer having "many races" has the consequence of wildly varying quality between them. The best designed race as a whole is arguably the Tomb Kings and the worst are obviously Norsca/Warriors of Chaos but also arguably the Wood Elves (to the point there is zero reason to play any other lord than the Sisters of Twilight). Given how there are so few battle mechanics and mechanical unit variety, I don't see why there are still races and LLs which are borderline unplayable 6 years after Warhammer 1's release. I don't know, it needs a major overhaul that we won't be getting with III and that's sad.

The Norsca campaign is great, what are you on?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
The Norsca campaign is great, what are you on?
It depends on the difficulty. On normal campaign, sure, but everything else gets progressively worse up to legendary where they are just unplayable after a certain point.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
The Norsca campaign is great, what are you on?
It depends on the difficulty. On normal campaign, sure, but everything else gets progressively worse up to legendary where they are just unplayable after a certain point.

What do you mean, it gets too difficult or what?

I found the Norsca start to be the hardest, very iffy, having to fish for Surtha Eks mammoth, but it being very smooth later on. Your income is shit and you're running a deficit, but the hunts are fun and the objectives as well.
 

Space Satan

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
6,216
Location
Space Hell
Yeah I saw gunplay in Empire: Total War and Warhammer's gunpowder units are ages, AGES ahead of this shit in terms of mechanics, usability and, most importantly, fun. No TW game made gunpowder unit felt so important. I never ever had same moment as in WH when I maneuver my handgunners to fire a volley in enemy unit's flank and actually felt an impact they made. Not a single TW game made goddamn CATAPULTS so powerful and feared. Fucking grudge thrower blasting mobs of orcs and gobbos to pieces is among the most satisfying game experiences in TW. Mortar landinga hit to cluttered enemy is orgamsic.
And they fixed formations, at last. Before, if ONE enemy melee unit start fighing with, say, unit of 100 shooters, 99 others will rush into melee. In WH if one handgunner will be locked in melee, other squad will still shoot. Fucking rotation - in WH they actually taught units to TURN. Empire Total War or Medieval\Rome - order unit to turn 180 degree and first line willstart to run to new position, in WH last line will simply turn 180 degree and - here you go, a complex maeuver of turning whole unit is complete. And I still not scratched the isse of artillery duels - something that made Empire, Mediveal and Shigun 2 multiplayer UNBEARABLE and forced everyone toturtle - is near nonexistant in WH Multoplayer. Whichis whywe actually have tournaments with actual teams and people today.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
What do you mean, it gets too difficult or what?

I found the Norsca start to be the hardest, very iffy, having to fish for Surtha Eks mammoth, but it being very smooth later on. Your income is shit and you're running a deficit, but the hunts are fun and the objectives as well.
Supply lines cripple them immensely. Since Norsca are enemies with basically everyone, they have a lot of trouble keeping settlements destroyed because the AI just resettles them. Which means you need a bunch of armies to keep destroyed settlements (ironically) while trying to exterminate another faction, but you can't have a lot of armies because pillaging can't keep up with the upkeep of the units, so Norsca is borderline, if not literally, unplayable after a certain point. Even the Warriors of Chaos are better than Norsca.

No TW game made gunpowder units feel so important.
Gunpowder units in WH are virtually indistinguishable from archers.
 

tabacila

Augur
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
326
Yeah, CA fixed gunpowder by making the archers with very flat firing arcs. But hey, if it works...
 

Space Satan

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
6,216
Location
Space Hell
Gunpowder units's main powers are projectile speed and armor piercing - they are among few who could kill fast units or units with fast combat animations. For example even the most powerful arches SUCK against Mannfred when he is on terrorgeist mount. Or against constantly moving monsters like Warsphinx and Scorpion - archers will kill more of their own with friendly fire while gunpowder will do the trick.
 

KateMicucci

Arcane
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
1,676
Notice the fact that gun units dont even have a reload animation in arcade gayhammer and can shoot throught their friends like it's nothing you have to get a mod to get reload animations :lol:
CA doesn't have a good understanding of how muskets historically performed relative to other missile weapons and it has resulted in muskets being weird in every game they've made. CA's 4-minute battle design philosophy doesn't help.

I'd rather have muskets be functional and lacking reload animations. Compared to M2 where while the reload animations and countermarch were really cool, they broke the unit half the time. Then in empire and FOTS there was the retarded knee-bending technology.

Archers get many unfair advantages. They get a longer range than the muskets (reality was the opposite). They can also blindfire through terrain and even barely-visible undulations can block muskets. There are also elite units for archers, while muskets stay pretty boring basic for most races, even for empire and dwarfs.

If I was designing a new historical game, I would make archers/crossbows generally the cheaper/low tech units with low damage and shorter range than muskets. Bows also would have much reduced accuracy if they had no LOS or friendly units were standing in front of them. The muskets would have a higher range, more damage, longer reload times, higher cost and tech level.
 

KateMicucci

Arcane
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
1,676
Gunpowder units's main powers are projectile speed and armor piercing - they are among few who could kill fast units or units with fast combat animations. For example even the most powerful arches SUCK against Mannfred when he is on terrorgeist mount. Or against constantly moving monsters like Warsphinx and Scorpion - archers will kill more of their own with friendly fire while gunpowder will do the trick.
The current state of the game, where the best use of an 80-men unit of musketeers is to snipe down single heroes and monsters, is really weird. When my muskeeters do a volley into an enemy formation at spitting distance I want to see a bunch of models drop, not an HP bar get a little shorter.
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
Supply lines cripple them immensely. Since Norsca are enemies with basically everyone, they have a lot of trouble keeping settlements destroyed because the AI just resettles them. Which means you need a bunch of armies to keep destroyed settlements (ironically) while trying to exterminate another faction, but you can't have a lot of armies because pillaging can't keep up with the upkeep of the units, so Norsca is borderline, if not literally, unplayable after a certain point. Even the Warriors of Chaos are better than Norsca.

Is this WH1 or WH2?

Not my experience in the latter at all.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Supply lines cripple them immensely. Since Norsca are enemies with basically everyone, they have a lot of trouble keeping settlements destroyed because the AI just resettles them. Which means you need a bunch of armies to keep destroyed settlements (ironically) while trying to exterminate another faction, but you can't have a lot of armies because pillaging can't keep up with the upkeep of the units, so Norsca is borderline, if not literally, unplayable after a certain point. Even the Warriors of Chaos are better than Norsca.

Is this WH1 or WH2?

Not my experience in the latter at all.
WH2. They are pretty good in 1. I thought it's common knowledge that Norsca is the worst race in the game on higher campaign difficulties?
 

Justicar

Dead game
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
4,413
Location
Afghanistan
"Unit diversity means having a warhound unit with a different skin on every faction."

"CAs diversity is 500 units that are identical but have slightly different names. ELITE AXE WARRIORS, NOBLE AXE FIGHTERS, MAILED AXE WARRIOR NOBLE FIGHTERS."

 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
Supply lines cripple them immensely. Since Norsca are enemies with basically everyone, they have a lot of trouble keeping settlements destroyed because the AI just resettles them. Which means you need a bunch of armies to keep destroyed settlements (ironically) while trying to exterminate another faction, but you can't have a lot of armies because pillaging can't keep up with the upkeep of the units, so Norsca is borderline, if not literally, unplayable after a certain point. Even the Warriors of Chaos are better than Norsca.

Is this WH1 or WH2?

Not my experience in the latter at all.
WH2. They are pretty good in 1. I thought it's common knowledge that Norsca is the worst race in the game on higher campaign difficulties?

I'd have to go back and check if my run was just VH or Legendary, but I can't recall any trouble after the initial 20 turns. Those first turns were extremely hard though.

You have DE and Skaven as allies and you don't have to defend a huge empire. Might have gotten harder with all the DLCs?
 

tabacila

Augur
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
326
Blog post about Kislev's campaign mechanics:
LET YOUR FOES FEEL THE FURY OF WINTER WITH KISLEV’S CAMPAIGN MECHANICS
TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER III
Ben Barrett
October 18 2021

Welcome back to our series of articles on faction mechanics in Total War: WARHAMMER III. Today we’re heading north to the icy lands of Kislev, the ward of the world against the machinations of Chaos and humanity’s finest line of defense against the threat of corruption. A fierce belief in their land, its people, and the power of their Gods to stand against the Chaos seeping from the North – whispering dark secrets and desires, crushing and infecting all those it encounters – keeps the nation alive. They have endured much, but they will continue until their mastery of the North is complete and Chaos is driven from the wastes once and for all.


中文版请在我们的Bilibili专栏查看



DEVOTION

If it hasn’t been clear, Kislevites are a fairly religious sort. When you’re freezing to death on your 50th day since you last saw your family, digging at the ice to get ever closer to literal daemons and make sure they aren’t coming for your home, your people, and everything you hold dear… well, it helps to have something to believe in. In-game, Devotion is a representation of how well your faction is upholding the ideals of Kislev and how easily it can keep the passion of the common people focused on destroying Chaos.


It is gained primarily through exactly that – combating and destroying the armies of Chaos. Defeating Chaos-aligned armies provides some, while sacrificing the captives post-battle gives another chunk. Various buildings and decisions can also generate devotion, the gods of Kislev responding to the attentions of their people.


Should it dip too low, Chaos armies may attack your homeland, finding it all the easier to manifest and invade a people who no longer believe they can be stopped. Devotion will drop when you commit heretical actions, like declaring war on other Kislev factions. It can also be spent on buildings and technology that are closely aligned to the faith. These can be great places of worship, for example, or improvements to the invocations the people of Kislev use to worship their gods. Speaking of which…


THE MOTHERLAND

kislev-environment-screenshot-1024x576.jpg


The primary use of Devotion is to perform one of four rituals to the Motherland. These represent honouring one of the four main Gods of the Kislevite faith. They, their areas of worship, and the effects of their ritual are:


  • Salyak
    • God of healing and comfort, a teacher of common sense, but cannot bring back the dead.
    • Increases growth and replenishment rate factionwide.
  • Dazh
    • God of fire and the sun, legendary for giving knowledge of fire to ancient human warchiefs.
    • Increases income from trade and all buildings.
  • Ursun
    • God of bears and seen as the shepherd and protector of Kislev.
    • Causes attrition to all enemies in your lands and provides a unique army ability that puts a powerful hex on a target area.
  • Tor
    • God of thunder and lightning and a mighty warrior who cracks the sky.
    • Gives all armies additional melee attack and bestows a unique army ability to massively increase damage potential in an area for a time.

Each ritual to the Motherland also causes a great winter to whip across Kislev lands, spread snow across any battles in their lands and dissuading attacks from enemies. Should your devotion be enough you can switch between or continue the effects at will. These great storms and rituals also serve to incite the populace to support your faction. Which brings us to…


SUPPORTERS AND THE SPIRITUAL CONFLICT FOR KISLEV

kislev-motherland-cut-1024x656.jpg


Kislev is a nation divided. While it remains resolute against the coming of Chaos, the death of the Red Tzar and the rise of his daughter Katarin to the throne has thrown the political landscape into disarray. There are two major factions: Tzarina Katarin and the Ice Court standing opposed to Supreme Patriarch Kostaltyn and the Great Orthodoxy. The two dare not declare open war against one another – no matter their hatred for the other’s position, it would simply be too costly for the nation and civil war is already a reality on both their borders.


However, they are gathering followers in the hope of proving that their faction is the greater and should be the one to lead Kislev, as one nation, into the future and against the forces of Chaos. Gathering followers comes from any number of sources, further enhanced by which rituals you decide to undertake and passive gains from certain buildings.


As a faction gains more followers, they will increase their relationship with the minor factions of Kislev as well as proving to the people and the troops that they are the rightful leader. Should the vast majority of Kislevites choose one side of the other, it will become dominant, confederate their opponents, and reign supreme. Of course, both factions are more than willing to spend gold or devotion to smear their opponents.


This is the spiritual conflict for the Motherland and its people. Whoever wins will still have Chaos, the Empire and their Vampire-spawn to the south, Ogres and worse to the west, and much more to deal with.


ATAMANS AND THE GREAT CITIES OF KISLEV

kislev-loading-screen-jpg-1024x577.jpg


Kislev has a strict hierarchy of order within its society, and Atamans are what sit between the Tzarina and her people. They are the rulers of cities and regions, conducting the everyday business that keeps the nation ticking over and ensures Chaos cannot get a foothold.


In-game, they are special lords, recruited to serve a province and can affect the income, growth, control, and corruption of the area. They also have various special effects and can develop more as their career continues. They do not earn XP like traditional lords but will face various dilemmas to increase their skills.


However, in times of dire need (or, well, whenever you like, really) Atamans can be drafted as lords to lead armies. This has no initial cost as you already control the Ataman, though they lack the battle-specific random traits of normal lords, and they won’t be providing their province benefits while they’re in the field. If they die, they’re gone, and a new one will need to be recruited to run their province.


You get one Ataman per two provinces you control. However, while for some races and areas of the world that would represent a half-dozen settlements or more, the layout of Kislev is somewhat unique. Three great cities dominate much of the landscape – Kislev, Praag, and Erengrad. It has been many moons since the three were united under one banner, but together they represent the nation.


The geography of the area also leads to some other massive, single settlements, such as the Skaven Hell Pit to the North. Between these great areas are scores of smaller towns and villages, scratching out a living and funding the war efforts with men, farms, and weapons. Which deserves the attention of your Atamans is up to you.


THE ICE COURT

kislev-ice-courtcut-1024x703.jpg


The Ice Witches and Frost Maidens of Kislev are not simply born with their extraordinary powers and the wherewithal to use them. Dedicated training must be undertaken, and the costs and decisions related to that fall on your shoulders. Rather than simply hiring these lords and heroes, you must first pay for them to go through a training regimen.


While this means hiring a new hero or lord takes many more turns, it also gives you the opportunity to mold them into what you currently need. Each turn in training will give you decisions on how you would like your new recruit to specialise – which lore of magic, which abilities, which passive bonuses for troops under their command.


Different technologies change the number of Ice Witches and Frost Maidens that can be trained at any one time, as well as the recruitment capacity for them. Once training is complete, they are added to your recruitment pool as normal, at a discounted price (as you already paid for the training). They can then be recruited whenever you have the desire, money, and slots to do so.


Naturally, Kostaltyn does not adore that, if he is to wield the winds of magic in his armies, he must pay for training of those he despises. It is up to him – and, therefore, you – how much you do that, but the uneasy peace between the Ice Court and the Orthodoxy gives him access to the same tools as anyone else.


TECH TREE

kislev-tech-tree-1024x576.jpg


Finally, and as we mentioned in our Cathay piece, we’ll be detailing the tech trees of the individual factions, as each is subtly different and focused in a specific direction. For Kislev, their technology focuses on four key areas – the land, and the three great cities. Each contains three groups of technologies, each of which requires a number from the group before to unlock. Within a group, several of the technologies may also be linked.


To begin with, a few technologies in each set are available. Progressing along the Land path simply needs a few from each box completed to unlock the next. However, the three tracks based around the great cities – Kislev, Praag, and Erengrad – require those cities to be in your faction. Each city focuses on differing upgrades across a host of units, income types, and other benefits.


As you can imagine, uniting all three cities under you gives a significant advantage in terms of what you can do and the power of your settlements and armies. It may provide some… surprising results as well.


BE HUMANITY’S BULWARK

Those are the basics for running Kislev. Little remains but to ride your bear to battle and defeat the hordes of Chaos swarming from the North and out of the very Chaos realms themselves.

Lots of stuff that would have felt better in other factions/races and quite a few questions.
Will Kislev, Pragg and Erengrad be 12 slots single settlement provinces?
The pantheon stuff could work great in a possible future update for Empire if Boris makes an appearance.
The more complicated recruitment of mages seems weird. Why do this for Kislev of all places?
The atamans/governors are a pretty interesting idea. Recruiting administration only 'generals' that get events to level up sounds good. Hopefully it will be fun to play around with, but again, I'm just not sure Kislev was the best candidate for such a mechanic. It's not like it's a huge land that requires a massive bureaucracy.

I don't really like this disunited vibe Kislev is getting. A small nation on the border of a greater power that cannot be bargained or negotiated with would probably not stand a chance fighting amongst themselves.
 

Demo.Graph

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
990
Blog post about Kislev's campaign mechanics:
Lots of stuff that would have felt better in other factions/races and quite a few questions.
Will Kislev, Pragg and Erengrad be 12 slots single settlement provinces?
The pantheon stuff could work great in a possible future update for Empire if Boris makes an appearance.
The more complicated recruitment of mages seems weird. Why do this for Kislev of all places?
The atamans/governors are a pretty interesting idea. Recruiting administration only 'generals' that get events to level up sounds good. Hopefully it will be fun to play around with, but again, I'm just not sure Kislev was the best candidate for such a mechanic. It's not like it's a huge land that requires a massive bureaucracy.

I don't really like this disunited vibe Kislev is getting. A small nation on the border of a greater power that cannot be bargained or negotiated with would probably not stand a chance fighting amongst themselves.
They definitely wanted to prohibit Kislev from expansion so that it stayed approximately in historical borders (at least in the early game). Kislev also has only a single enemy (arguably, probably orcs and vampires as well, should those try to expand north), so they had to try and make engagements more variable for "replay value", despite staying defensive.
If Kislev turned out to be too strong, it would've ran over Norsca, devaluing the viking threat for the empire.
That forced CA to include more micromanagement mechanics for "vertical development", since core game has very little of those. That's probably a good idea game design wise. The mechanics are the same combat grind + modifier switches + pokemon heroes that're typical for other factions.
I'd say the problem is in the implementation, not in the general approach. Kislev also seems to lack endgame now (besides turning against empire to paint the map in color vodka).
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
The invocations to the gods are literally Troy's devotion system but worse. Great. I don't see the point of it being harder to recruit agents/heroes for Kislev. Unless they are trying to limit their armies, but that seems not in-line with the overall design of this game.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom