A philosophical discussion of speedrunning

[DJOGamer PT]

Everything? Chasing a ball around a lawn is sport for hounds not men.

You're starting to sound like the kid that as always picked last, because nobody wanted to play with him

Every benefit you mentioned already exists in the martial sports I mentioned, moreover there is actual risk of death in most of them owing to the fact they're using weaponry, pursuing dangerous animals or otherwise beating the shit out of each other. The skills gained from all of these were both important outside the given sports and obviously masculine.

You seem to be confusing "sports" with "trainning"
Sports are first and foremost a form of entertainment - in fact, the word "sport" comes from the Old French desport (meaning "leisure")
It's not an activity humans primarly do because they have a role in society that requires the development of specific aptitudes and knowledge - that's training

None of these, even in their current watered-down state, come anywhere near the popularity of sportsball. They have been replaced.

You didn't get what I asked
I'll make it more clear

What makes you think, they were the most popular worldwide sports in the first place?

Or better yet, have you ever wondered why football is more popular?

Meant for people in higher strata?

Meant for the higher classes society.

Case in point:

"Jousting is for nobility." And?

It's kinda hard to be the most popular thing, when you're exclusive to a limited group

"Greek" wrestling is a shorthand. Wrestling has nothing to do with being pagan lol. It never disappeared and was hugely popular in the medieval period.

You specifically said Greek Wrestling
Which is a martial art of ancient Greece

And yes paganism is involved, as those martial arts all originated during Europe's pagan days before the Church (which didn't look kindly to those activities)
What was popular was so called "folk wrestling" - that like the name implies were enjoyed mostly by the peasents

Pugilism as was no longer exists.

Pugilism is literally a synonym for boxing

No. Literally every able male in pre-history was a hunter.

There's a big, big difference between hunting as a necessity or because it's your job and hunting for sport

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

You're starting to sound like the kid that as always picked last, because nobody wanted to play with him

Attempts at ad hominem will be stepped over.

What makes you think, they were the most popular worldwide sports in the first place?

Where did I say they were the most popular? Some were popular and some less so. I said they replaced them which is true, but the crux of the matter is the reverence of martial prowess has been replaced with the reverence of the ability to kick a ball around by the populace. This is emasculation.

It's kinda hard to be the most popular thing, when you're exclusive to a limited group

Jousting whether you participate in it or not was a popular spectator sport. Some were private, many were public. For those competing, it's the height of masculine sport. For the villains watching, it gave them something to aspire to or hold as ideal.

You specifically said Greek Wrestling

I specifically said "Greek Wrestling" to avoid confusion with the staged WWF variety and because that is the lineage that all subsequent western forms descend from. No, the Church didn't give a shit about such things.

Pugilism is literally a synonym for boxing

Again, "Pugilism" to differentiate it from modern boxing.

There's a big, big difference between hunting as a necessity or because it's your job and hunting for sport

You are using the same skill set which is taught through the act of hunting. How serious one might take it, how grueling the pace and how long the period spent is up to the individual.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Speedrun competitions are fun. Much, much, much better than e-sports.

 

[Sarathiour]

 

[Morenatsu.]

Sports are very masculine, it's just that they're stupid.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Where did I say they were the most popular?

You said replaced, which is what it implies

but the crux of the matter is the reverence of martial prowess has been replaced with the reverence of the ability to kick a ball around by the populace.

Revere?
Kek
Can you prove that the general populace of today reveres sportball and that the people of the general populace revere martial prowess?

Again, "Pugilism" to differentiate it from modern boxing.

Again, there's no other definition for "Pugilism" other than boxing, so why don't you share your own definition

You are using the same skill set which is taught through the act of hunting. How serious one might take it, how grueling the pace and how long the period spent is up to the individual.

You're being either very naive or very desingenous
There is a difference between hunting because you need to eat or because you have a duty to provide certain goods, and hunting just for the fun of it

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

You said replaced, which is what it implies

No it doesn't, but nice try. The popularity of any sport today far exceeds any that have ever existed in the past, that is completely ignoring all value judgements I'd assign.

Can you prove that the general populace of today reveres sportball and that the people of the general populace revere martial prowess?

Easily. The cult of personality built around athletes, the chimp-outs after losing or winning a game in big cities, hours upon hours spent on fantasy football, the existence of Sports Bars, millions of people tuning into matches on television, the metric fucktons of consoomer merch that gets sold. Shit is plain as day to anyone with eyes. "Do you have any sources? And are they peer reviewed? And how many times have they been cited? Hmmm... I don't like your evidence!" - This is the type of autistic argumentation I'd expect to see from a redditor, not a codexian.

You're being either very naive or very desingenous
There is a difference between hunting because you need to eat or because you have a duty to provide certain goods, and hunting just for the fun of it

Cute coming from you.
No, there isn't. The skill set is the same regardless if you're out to succeed. The boars you're tracking don't care if your ass is starving and will make no provision for your circumstance.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Easily. The cult of personality built around athletes, the chimp-outs after losing or winning a game in big cities, hours upon hours spent on fantasy football, the existence of Sports Bars, millions of people tuning into matches on television, the metric fucktons of consoomer merch that gets sold. Shit is plain as day to anyone with eyes.

That hardly proves that it's revered
Cult of personality? Meh. Just fanboyism. Always existed for any popular individual, and athletes are not the only ones that get it nor the ones that have the most "intense" following. Shit, even here on the Codex you'll find plenty of that - over this philopher or that political leader.
Chimp-outs? Perpetrated by specific groups of fans - I don't know the translation in English, but in my native tongue we a specific designation for those groups - claques. Essentially hooligans. Which are pretty much gangs. Meaning they don't need much of an excuse to chimp-out, their sportsball team losing is as good as any - the upside is that these guys are at least predictable. Also like any gang, chimp-outs are more frequent in shithole countries
The rest is simple. Since of many people find it entertaining, some industrious individuals took advantage of that and built an industry around it. Which functions like any other.

No, there isn't. The skill set is the same regardless if you're out to succeed.

Oh, so you're being stupid
Yes there is. And it's the intention that counts
Hunting for sport means exactely that, you're hunting just because you find it entertaining, not because you have an obligation to do so

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Cult of personality? Meh. Just fanboyism. Always existed for any popular individual, and athletes are not the only ones that get it nor the ones that have the most "intense" following.

The whole point of this conversation between us is the misplaced reverence of modern sports as a replacement for what should legitimately garner reverence. That people revere things is completely beside the point. What are men revering and dumping inordinate amounts of time into and is it degenerate? Does playing a friendly game of football once in a while make people degens? No. It's the focus and prestige that are assigned to this shit that's unhealthy for society. I have two older friends that are down this rabbit hole, guys who don't even play the sports they obsess over, yet can rattle off scores and plays from big games in 1974. This is what they've dedicated all their mental energy to know.

The irony is not lost on me that we are discussing this on an RPG forum, that we also obsess over inane shit. In defense of certain video games, at least you might learn something from them or be lead to learn history, geography or philosophy outside of them because you take an interest in what's presented in game and want to know the truth of the matter. That being said, if that's all you're dumping your time into, if there's nothing else about you besides your obsession with collecting giant libraries of physical media you'll never play, chasing clout speedrunning, the dopamine cycle etc. there's a problem.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

misplaced reverence of modern sports as a replacement for what should legitimately garner reverence.

But again you are making the romantic assumption that the people of yore didn't "revere" equally inane shit
Not every one is into philosphy and shit. Most people have always had great interest in nonsensical things

I can't make any correct assumption on your friends
But tell me, do they not have job or responsibilities of any kind?
If they do, and this is something they partake when they are not attending to those duties, then who the fuck cares?
They find it relaxing or estimulationg, maybe both. Or perhaps it's one hobby that allows them to keep in contact.
Seriously, unless they literally obsess over this shit all day and have nothing else in their lifes, then what makes their hobby any more ridiculous than being elistist prestigious about videogames and a nerd about philophy/history like must of us here?

 

[Morenatsu.]

As you can see, people who always disagree with me are absolutely certain to start posting nonsense like this.

‘no bro you can't romanticize that's gaaaaaaay that's like you actually believe in standards or something LMAOOOOOOO humans were always stupid dumb dumb!’ Yeah, great, much smart, very intelligence, wow.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

But again you are making the romantic assumption that the people of yore didn't "revere" equally inane shit

I'm not making any assumption. They didn't. That not everyone has an aptitude in philosophy or history doesn't matter, they were at least taught it and could engage with it as well as understanding its importance. They're not even taught it now. Their parents couldn't teach them, the parents weren't taught it either.

Being a man is more than just holding a job, that's the bare minimum. Amazon Bugmen are not an ideal.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

But again you are making the romantic assumption that the people of yore didn't "revere" equally inane shit

I'm not making any assumption. They didn't. That not everyone has an aptitude in philosophy or history doesn't matter, they were at least taught it and could engage with it as well as understanding its importance. They're not even taught it now. Their parents couldn't teach them, the parents weren't taught it either.

Being a man is more than just holding a job, that's the bare minimum. Amazon Bugmen are not an ideal.

Imagine being a sped that gets into serious philosophical decisions of the worthiness of various wastes of time for the reverence of some random schmucks.

If you're wasting thought on whether your chosen pass time is fucking worthy of being a real man, then you can stop worrying. You're not, you're a bitch, because you're basing your value on what some theoretical dickheads think.

Video games are a waste of time. Baseball is a waste of time. Speedrunning is a waste of time. Trying to jump higher than any man has ever jumped is a waste of time. You know something? We have a lot of spare time, it's ours to waste.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Imagine being a sped that gets into serious philosophical decisions of the worthiness of various wastes of time for the reverence of some random schmucks.

If you're wasting thought on whether your chosen pass time is fucking worthy of being a real man, then you can stop worrying. You're not, you're a bitch, because you're basing your value on what some theoretical dickheads think.

Video games are a waste of time. Baseball is a waste of time. Speedrunning is a waste of time. Trying to jump higher than any man has ever jumped is a waste of time. You know something? We have a lot of spare time, it's ours to waste.

Your opinion is a waste of time.

 

[Silentstorm]

I will say, because this thread came up, decided to randomly search for philosophy and speedrunning and found out there are actual books about speedrunning, though only Speedrun Science seems to be about this as well as offering a history of the hobby and stuff...i guess, will not pay 32 bucks for a speedrunning book to see what's in it.

Anyways, like i said...meh, i guess speedrunners love playing the same game again and again to beat it faster, but it's just not something i imagine myself doing, it is impressive watching some of them, particularly like watching speedruns of really tough games or ones that are memorization based but impressive to look at like any Kaizo Mario run:

 

[Morenatsu.]

It's all fun and games until it turns into a ‘who can complete it in one less frame than the other guy’ competition.

Well, all that matters is that it's fun to watch. As long as it isn't slow and boring and too much like normal gameplay that you could do yourself, and on the other hand doesn't just instantly skip to the credits in some kind of magic gltich, then anything's fine.

Also, if you just want to watch skillz, shmup superplays are far superior.

 

[Norfleet]

I'm game for some "the virgin speedrunner vs the chad 100% playthrougher" memes though.

The 100% playthrough speedrun exists.

There's this Frenchie Catholic cultural critic/tech critic/art critic/phenomenologist Paul Virilio who wrote fair bit about impact of speed on society.

The last time I contemplated the impact of speed on society, it was about kinetic orbital armageddon. Lots of speed, lots of impacts, not so much society afterwards. A reminder that space hates us and wants us dead, so we should nuke it before it nukes us.

Everything? Chasing a ball around a lawn is sport for hounds not men.

I dunno, in the good old days, one of the teams was sacrificed to secure the rising of the sun.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I dunno, in the good old days, one of the teams was sacrificed to secure the rising of the sun.

The second team was killed by pale gold-loving armadillo men from across Tlaloc's great river.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Being ritually sacrificed sounds rather nice.

 

[Excommunicator]

I think it's great to see the creative flexing of the game's boundaries to achieve different results than intended.

 

[J1M]

Imagine actually speedrunning without glitches. That's boring. I want to see stuff like Half-Life being played at light-speed, I don't want to watch some guy run past scripted sequences for two hours. And as soon as you add anything like minor bunny-hopping and such, you're already using glitches. At some point it's not even possible to discern what's a glitch and what's not, so why not just allow glitches? If you think that's dishonourable to the game or something, you're a loser.

Take a step back. The innate appeal of watching someone perform a difficult task is to observe mastery. To witness the peak of human potential.

Watching someone play Ikaruga while controlling player 1 and 2 simultaneously is akin to seeing a difficult piano solo. Except more impressive because it is the first time anyone has ever done the feat.

When speedrunning restrains itself to the best lap times in Mario Kart or the highest score in an arcade game, it has that same appeal.

Unfortunately, speedrunning primarily strays outside of that. The goal to minimize the number on a timer creates behavior that is so distinct from the goal of demonstrating mastery that speedrunning should really be called "post-release quality assurance testing".

When 90% of the gameplay is skipped with geometry glitches and code bugs, the primary element on display is no longer mastery, but rather a glimpse into how the game was built. This can still be interesting and worth watching, but it is degenerate to praise whoever strings together the exploits others have found rather than praising the actual creative work of discovery.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

I despise speedrunning. Some people just want to know everything about a game they love, including how to break it, and that's OK. Subverting the game is part of the game and everyone understands it. I guess you can consider speedrunning as a small part of that. But I don't know of any better way to prove your own inferiority than participating in speedrunning competitions, where you basically boast about your ability to brute force a very narrow set of challenges more effectively than anyone else in the world (effectively because you've got more time and energy to waste than everyone else). It's like bragging about being able to open doors by ramming them with your head repeatedly or getting a world guiness record for the longest masturbation marathon. Congratulations in succeeding in something that requires no human intelligence whatsoever!

Ability in videogames is admirable to the extent that it is dynamic and unpredictable. There should be competitions where the players have never played the game before, or play the game in some scenario they've never seen. Imagine a competition for Thief players where they were presented with some big, brand new map full of unknown variables and they had to compete to get the most loot and finish the level in the shortest time, with points deducted for the mistakes they made, or added for the challenges they overcame, maybe even for style or creativity. Imagine an RTS competition, where the tech tree and unit names had been completely reinvented or "scrambled" so the players had to figure out things on their own as they played it. No strategy could be taken for granted. This would be the opposite of speedrunning and perhaps would help bring some dignity not just to "esports", but gaming in general. It would eliminate the autistic losers and create space for the admiration of truly brilliant players.

 

[minakami]

There should be competitions where the players have never played the game before, or play the game in some scenario they've never seen.

There is Mystery Tourament.

 

[Morenatsu.]

Imagine actually speedrunning without glitches. That's boring. I want to see stuff like Half-Life being played at light-speed, I don't want to watch some guy run past scripted sequences for two hours. And as soon as you add anything like minor bunny-hopping and such, you're already using glitches. At some point it's not even possible to discern what's a glitch and what's not, so why not just allow glitches? If you think that's dishonourable to the game or something, you're a loser.

Take a step back. The innate appeal of watching someone perform a difficult task is to observe mastery. To witness the peak of human potential.

Watching someone play Ikaruga while controlling player 1 and 2 simultaneously is akin to seeing a difficult piano solo. Except more impressive because it is the first time anyone has ever done the feat.

When speedrunning restrains itself to the best lap times in Mario Kart or the highest score in an arcade game, it has that same appeal.

Unfortunately, speedrunning primarily strays outside of that. The goal to minimize the number on a timer creates behavior that is so distinct from the goal of demonstrating mastery that speedrunning should really be called "post-release quality assurance testing".

When 90% of the gameplay is skipped with geometry glitches and code bugs, the primary element on display is no longer mastery, but rather a glimpse into how the game was built. This can still be interesting and worth watching, but it is degenerate to praise whoever strings together the exploits others have found rather than praising the actual creative work of discovery.

What you want are superplays, not speedruns. Why don't you take a step back and stop acting like speedruns instantly involve no skill and are no fun just because they use glitches? What, are you going to tell me that playing Portal by shooting frame-perfect portals through portals through walls through portals isn't impressive in its own right? That it's somehow invalid just because it doesn't follow the rules, whatever those are supposed to be, whereas playing Battle Bakraid entirely through extremely precise chain-suicides is totally fine and cool? Not every speedrun is ‘lol I used the instant credits glitch’, they usually involve just as much skill as ‘legal’ gameplay, if not more. And in any case, all of these kinds of things are ‘degenerate’ wastes of time, regardless of whose rules you're following. It's fun when it's fun, that's all.

It's like you guys just want to keep saying your new favourite word so you sound cool and intelligent. You're not, it's trite, just stop.

 

[Greek Anime God]

Being ritually sacrificed sounds rather nice.

I volunteer to sacrifice you but you need to look good in a dress in order to meet the requirements of my local Lebanese deities.