Gothic RPG's with non lethal options

[JarlFrank]

Are there other games that feature non lethal fights like the Gothic games ?

Undertale. You can beat the game without killing anyone.

I have never heard of Undertale, is it by chance a typo for UnderRail ?

It's an incredibly overrated JRPG parody.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

Let me clarify that I am looking for games that actually react to your choice of non lethal takedowns in a meaningful way. Implementations that differ in your damage type, or where you loot an unconscious body instead of a corpse add nothing substantial to games. I am searching for games that do more with the mechanic. Stealth is also not the same. Not killing someone in combat is different to avoiding combat altogether. Deus Ex is probably the series where the choice matters most. Gothic uses it more implicitly but does give you the choice and if you kill you can turn everyone against you so it matters also. Many of the listed games so far sound as if they fall in the category where it is mere window-dressing.

P.S. can I somehow update my initial post in the thread ? I would like to add this paragraph to appear there as update.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Surely there must be an RPG game where you can play a cheerleader who defeats the other cheerleaders in a non-lethal pillow fight?

 

[Spukrian]

- Deus Ex: one non-combat kill needed ("take your best shot, flatlander woman"). The game really doesn't care what you do after the UNATCO missions, though. non-lethal methods are baton, prod and tranq bow

You can actually avoid killing her but it's probably not worth the effort.

 

[Lemming42]

Let me clarify that I am looking for games that actually react to your choice of non lethal takedowns in a meaningful way. Implementations that differ in your damage type, or where you loot an unconscious body instead of a corpse add nothing substantial to games. I am searching for games that do more with the mechanic. Stealth is also not the same. Not killing someone in combat is different to avoiding combat altogether. Deus Ex is probably the series where the choice matters most. Gothic uses it more implicitly but does give you the choice and if you kill you can turn everyone against you so it matters also. Many of the listed games so far sound as if they fall in the category where it is mere window-dressing.

P.S. can I somehow update my initial post in the thread ? I would like to add this paragraph to appear there as update.

Sadly I don't think there's really any games that match what you're looking for. Even if we expand the search outside the RPG genre, it's usually a case of window-dressing. Here's all the games I can think of with non-lethal options, many of them revolving around stealth:

Spoiler

- Dishonored reacts in a very, very simplistic way to how many people you've killed. The process of actually KOing people instead of killing them is almost entirely cosmetic though, just plays a different takedown animation.

- Metro 2033, Last Light and Exodus all have a karma system where not killing anyone will set you up for the best endings. In the original games you had to sneak by, but in the Redux games you can KO people, which is identical to killing them except for the animation.

- Thief enables you to slip past everyone or KO them with the comically-overpowered blackjack. Blackjacking someone renders them essentially dead for gameplay purposes.

- Mirror's Edge has an achievement for never killing anyone, but no in-game reactivity beyond that. The actual non-lethal gameplay amounts to just voluntarily not picking up guns or kicking people off rooftops.

- Desperados 1 and 3 enable you to clear the whole game with no kills at all, but the game doesn't really react. That said, the gameplay mechanics change if you attempt this and the game becomes a lot more difficult, so it's actually one of the better non-lethal playthroughs in a videogame, especially in Desperados 1 where only one character carries the rope necessary to tie enemies up, forcing you to radically change your plans to ensure that he's always got access to the most recently KO'd enemy.

- Hitman games encourage you to never kill anyone other than the targets, which can be a lot of fun as it requires what people call "social stealth". You could argue the game reacts since if you fuck things up and cause chaos, everything spirals very quickly out of control.

- SWAT 4 strongly encourages you to never kill anyone, which does tangibly change the gameplay in that you have to announce your presence to people who are very likely to open fire on you, and then you must shoot to wound (or use laughably underpowered non-lethal weapons).

I don't think anyone's really found a way to integrate this kind of plot reactivity in an interesting way yet. Deus Ex only acknowledges your choices during the UNATCO segment, and even then, it's fairly simplistic - Paul will either yell at you or congratulate you depending on whether or not you killed or incapacitated people. I always thought it'd be cool if spared enemies showed up later on - I know Walton Simons will arrive at the end if he's not killed in the Ocean Lab, but there were plenty of other cases where they could have done this. I always carry Maggie Chow's unconscious body out of the exploding Versalife lab and dump her on the docks, but I guess the devs never expected anyone to bother to do that, since she's considered dead from that point and never shows up again. It also just straight-up ignores what you've done at times. The game doesn't care if you KO or kill the guy attacking Sandra Renton in the alleyway, for example, and JC refers to him as being dead even if you just prodded him.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Wasteland 3 dlc Battle of Steeltown is all about defeating your enemies in a non-lethal way. You choose between two factions, but they are interdependant so they don't want to you to kill members of the other one. The dlc gives you lots of equipment for incapacitating foes without murdering them (guns, grenades, melee weapons) and keeps track if you chose to keep the casualties to minimum, which influences the dialogues and available ways to solve the conflict.

 

[Mark Richard]

In Kingdom Come: Deliverance you only have to kill one person throughout the entire game. Most combatants choose to surrender rather than fight to the death. A surrendering foe typically presents the following options – release unconditionally, let him go disarmed, or continue the combat. In main quests and side quests this is sometimes expanded to questioning the subject (providing new options in dealing with the quest) before escorting him to the local jail. It bothers me a little when RPGs turn the player into a legendary practitioner of lethal self-defence, because no well-meaning character could live with the thousands of bodies in their wake.

Much love to those who mentioned Expeditions: Viking, but in regards to non-lethal reactivity it's a little underwhelming.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

Wasteland 3 dlc Battle of Steeltown is all about defeating your enemies in a non-lethal way. You choose between two factions, but they are interdependant so they don't want to you to kill members of the other one. The dlc gives you lots of equipment for incapacitating foes without murdering them (guns, grenades, melee weapons) and keeps track if you chose to keep the casualties to minimum, which influences the dialogues and available ways to solve the conflict.

Do you recommend the DLC ? I have yet to play Wasteland 3 and I am split whether I should get the DLC's or not.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Wasteland 3 dlc Battle of Steeltown is all about defeating your enemies in a non-lethal way. You choose between two factions, but they are interdependant so they don't want to you to kill members of the other one. The dlc gives you lots of equipment for incapacitating foes without murdering them (guns, grenades, melee weapons) and keeps track if you chose to keep the casualties to minimum, which influences the dialogues and available ways to solve the conflict.

Do you recommend the DLC ? I have yet to play Wasteland 3 and I am split whether I should get the DLC's or not.

I quite liked it. I think it's a first game since Arcanum that lets you settle a dispute between forces of capital and labor. You can side with factory management, the workers or try to reach some sort of compromise. There are many ways to solve the crisis with numerous possible outcomes before really bad dudes arrive to the scene.

 

[Pink Eye]

Here's all the games I can think of with non-lethal options, many of them revolving around stealth:
Dishonored reacts in a very, very simplistic way to how many people you've killed. The process of actually KOing people instead of killing them is almost entirely cosmetic though, just plays a different takedown animation.

- Metro 2033, Last Light and Exodus all have a karma system where not killing anyone will set you up for the best endings. In the original games you had to sneak by, but in the Redux games you can KO people, which is identical to killing them except for the animation.

- Thief enables you to slip past everyone or KO them with the comically-overpowered blackjack. Blackjacking someone renders them essentially dead for gameplay purposes.

- Mirror's Edge has an achievement for never killing anyone, but no in-game reactivity beyond that. The actual non-lethal gameplay amounts to just voluntarily not picking up guns or kicking people off rooftops.

- Desperados 1 and 3 enable you to clear the whole game with no kills at all, but the game doesn't really react. That said, the gameplay mechanics change if you attempt this and the game becomes a lot more difficult, so it's actually one of the better non-lethal playthroughs in a videogame, especially in Desperados 1 where only one character carries the rope necessary to tie enemies up, forcing you to radically change your plans to ensure that he's always got access to the most recently KO'd enemy.

- Hitman games encourage you to never kill anyone other than the targets, which can be a lot of fun as it requires what people call "social stealth". You could argue the game reacts since if you fuck things up and cause chaos, everything spirals very quickly out of control.

- SWAT 4 strongly encourages you to never kill anyone, which does tangibly change the gameplay in that you have to announce your presence to people who are very likely to open fire on you, and then you must shoot to wound (or use laughably underpowered non-lethal weapons).

Since you mentioned the Hitman games. Splinter Cell, d00d! Those games are all about completely avoiding enemies via stealth! Haven't played the new ones, so have no idea if the premise is still the same. I think I remember Double Agent having some reactivity towards plot if you don't kill anyone. Don't remember about Chaos Theory or the older ones. It's been so many years. I need to replay the games...

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Vigilantes

To expand this, this is tactical game where your goal is to take down leaders of 3 gangs.
Attack moves can be done lethally (for extra damage) or non-lethally, but it's sadly just a simple toggle which allows you to throw non-lethal incendiary grenades or shoot people non-lethally into head with high powered sniper rifles.
I still liked it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

non-lethal incendiary grenades or shoot people non-lethally into head with high powered sniper rifles.

Non-lethal shots in the head with regular, lethal, ammunition is an art, you have to kill many people to master it...

 

[Blutwurstritter]

non-lethal incendiary grenades or shoot people non-lethally into head with high powered sniper rifles.

Non-lethal shots in the head with regular, lethal, ammunition is an art, you have to kill many people to master it...

 

[Snufkin]

It is possible to beat Arcanum with 0 kills.

 

[Alphons]

I made a similar topic 2 years ago, maybe you'll find something that fits your expectations.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/pacifism-in-games.130894/

I'd have to update the list though.

Shame the non-lethal mechanics are pretty much non-existent outside of stealth and cop games. RPGs usually just have the option to talk yourself out of combat/ sneak around/ run away.

 

[Peachcurl]