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Doom 3 vs Return to Castle Wolfenstein

Bad Sector

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It's both mechanics and feedback, and no, it's not subjective.

How you perceive the game's feedback by definition is subjective - your perception is all up to you and not everyone has the exact same perception as you have. It is by definition up to you how it feels to you

You mentioned "movement, control, speed, aiming, fluidity". Of the three "control" is vague, it could mean anything from how fast the game reacts to controls (feedback) to what happens when you press the spacebar key (mechanics, but FPS games all have 95% similar controls since Quake 1 there aside from when adding extra keys for specialized functions like activating stuff or throwing grenades or whatever), so i ignore it unless you want to expand on it.

Movement is feedback - ie how the game's motion feels. It could be how you move in the game, but we're discussing FPS games here that aside from gimmicks have more or less standard movement schemes. The only thing you could attribute to mechanics is things like grabbing ledges in Doom 2016 but we're already established that Doom 3 is slower paced than that - and i'm 100% certain that adding ledge grabbing to Doom 3 wouldn't change it or its perception at all.

Speed - again, feedback. Doom 3 is slower paced than Doom 2016, etc. Already established.

Aiming - feedback again. And as i wrote previously Doom 3 has very tight feedback there.

Fluidity - still feedback, though i'm not 100% if you mean the same thing i do with "fluidity" - ie. how the game feels to control. You could mean other things like how animations play or whatever. You could be more specific.

and that's something that's widely acknowledged among FPS fans.

I don't care what "FPS fans" think (also, i'm an FPS fan too and from my perspective my opinions matter most :-P). If anything if you ask 10 "FPS fans" what was what made the original Doom games great you'd get 10 different answers. And many will disagree with each other - e.g. see how many think Brutal Doom is what Doom could have been if it was possible back in the day and how many think that Brutal Doom completely misses the game's point.

The fact that you're even still arguing about it shows that either you still don't understand what I'm talking about (not likely), or you just refuse to acknowledge it for whatever reason.

Actually i do not have a proper understanding of everything that you were referring to because you kept using vague words and i had to dig meaning out of you by "still arguing". If i tried to argue with a partial understanding i might have misunderstood something and then you'd argue back based on that misunderstanding which would lead nowhere. It'd be much easier if you were more specific in your descriptions instead of expecting me to come up with my own interpretations of things like "fluidity", "control" and defers to "FPS fans".

Yes, and I already told you it's fine that you like Doom 3 more.

Of course it is fine, but this argument didn't start from you claiming that it isn't fine to like Doom 3 more, it started by you claiming that Doom 3 is mechanically "clunky" without explaining why but instead using Doom 2016 as means of figuring that out and me replying that i actually prefer Doom 3 to Doom 2016's mechanics and that i want you to be more specific about what exactly you refer to. To which you respond with vague terms with some of them even having nothing to do with mechanics and defers to vague groups of people that i obviously can't (assuming i even wanted to) ask about what you mean - implicitly meaning that you actually just expect me agree with whatever you say.

Here is what i mean to be explicit with an example of something i do not like about Doom 3:

I do not like its stamina meter because it only seems to exist to slow the player down without any actual mechanical impact. You are still fast enough to dodge any projectiles thrown at you so it doesn't slow you down enough and it is big enough and replenishes fast enough so you can always do a quick sprint in the few times where you need to do that without dodging and never are in a position where you have to take care about that stamina meter - except when you are trying to explore the map for resources or necessary items to progress (e.g. a PDA or whatever) and trying to run because you already know the area and the player's default walking speed is too slow - meaning that it fails to be something to care about during combat and only acts as a nuisance when you shouldn't care about it and instead focusing on other things (like exploration).

There, that is how one can be precise when explaining mechanics they do not like. And certainly someone else can disagree with the above, it isn't like i believe this is the be all, end all take on Doom 3's stamina meter. But if they do they'd have some context to grab on and discuss about (e.g. someone might claim that it keeps you searching for those stamina boosters - to which i'd have my own reply but i'm not going to argue with myself here :-P) instead of just throwing something vague like "eh, Doom 3 is pointlessly slow" and leaving others to guess what exactly i mean.

EDIT: also this is my #1337 message on the Codex :-D
 

JDR13

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How you perceive the game's feedback by definition is subjective - your perception is all up to you and not everyone has the exact same perception as you have. It is by definition up to you how it feels to you

You mentioned "movement, control, speed, aiming, fluidity". Of the three "control" is vague, it could mean anything from how fast the game reacts to controls (feedback) to what happens when you press the spacebar key (mechanics, but FPS games all have 95% similar controls since Quake 1 there aside from when adding extra keys for specialized functions like activating stuff or throwing grenades or whatever), so i ignore it unless you want to expand on it.

Movement is feedback - ie how the game's motion feels. It could be how you move in the game, but we're discussing FPS games here that aside from gimmicks have more or less standard movement schemes. The only thing you could attribute to mechanics is things like grabbing ledges in Doom 2016 but we're already established that Doom 3 is slower paced than that - and i'm 100% certain that adding ledge grabbing to Doom 3 wouldn't change it or its perception at all.

Speed - again, feedback. Doom 3 is slower paced than Doom 2016, etc. Already established.

Aiming - feedback again. And as i wrote previously Doom 3 has very tight feedback there.

Fluidity - still feedback, though i'm not 100% if you mean the same thing i do with "fluidity" - ie. how the game feels to control. You could mean other things like how animations play or whatever. You could be more specific.

You can use whatever terminology you choose, but I still think you knew exactly what I was talking about. The shooting is much tighter in Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. I've always said shooting mechanics, and you're the first person I've ever had try to claim they didn't know what I meant. Doom 3 feels slow and clunky compared to Doom 2016 & Eternal. Again, that's not even debateable.

Things like speed and accuracy are NOT subjective. Do you even realize how fucking dumb you're beginning to sound here? That's like saying hot and cold are subjective.


I don't care what "FPS fans" think (also, i'm an FPS fan too and from my perspective my opinions matter most :-P). If anything if you ask 10 "FPS fans" what was what made the original Doom games great you'd get 10 different answers. And many will disagree with each other - e.g. see how many think Brutal Doom is what Doom could have been if it was possible back in the day and how many think that Brutal Doom completely misses the game's point.

That example is completely irrelevant. If you ask 10 FPS fans to compare Doom 3 to Doom 2016 and Eternal in the aspects I'm talking about, I guarantee you're not getting 10 different answers and that the vast majority won't be disagreeing.


Actually i do not have a proper understanding of everything that you were referring to because you kept using vague words and i had to dig meaning out of you by "still arguing". If i tried to argue with a partial understanding i might have misunderstood something and then you'd argue back based on that misunderstanding which would lead nowhere. It'd be much easier if you were more specific in your descriptions instead of expecting me to come up with my own interpretations of things like "fluidity", "control" and defers to "FPS fans".

My apologies. Had I known you were this dense, I wouldn't have used such difficult to understand terms like "fluidity" and "contol".


Of course it is fine, but this argument didn't start from you claiming that it isn't fine to like Doom 3 more, it started by you claiming that Doom 3 is mechanically "clunky" without explaining why but instead using Doom 2016 as means of figuring that out and me replying that i actually prefer Doom 3 to Doom 2016's mechanics and that i want you to be more specific about what exactly you refer to. To which you respond with vague terms with some of them even having nothing to do with mechanics and defers to vague groups of people that i obviously can't (assuming i even wanted to) ask about what you mean - implicitly meaning that you actually just expect me agree with whatever you say.

Here is what i mean to be explicit with an example of something i do not like about Doom 3:

I do not like its stamina meter because it only seems to exist to slow the player down without any actual mechanical impact. You are still fast enough to dodge any projectiles thrown at you so it doesn't slow you down enough and it is big enough and replenishes fast enough so you can always do a quick sprint in the few times where you need to do that without dodging and never are in a position where you have to take care about that stamina meter - except when you are trying to explore the map for resources or necessary items to progress (e.g. a PDA or whatever) and trying to run because you already know the area and the player's default walking speed is too slow - meaning that it fails to be something to care about during combat and only acts as a nuisance when you shouldn't care about it and instead focusing on other things (like exploration).

There, that is how one can be precise when explaining mechanics they do not like. And certainly someone else can disagree with the above, it isn't like i believe this is the be all, end all take on Doom 3's stamina meter. But if they do they'd have some context to grab on and discuss about (e.g. someone might claim that it keeps you searching for those stamina boosters - to which i'd have my own reply but i'm not going to argue with myself here :-P) instead of just throwing something vague like "eh, Doom 3 is pointlessly slow" and leaving others to guess what exactly i mean.

EDIT: also this is my #1337 message on the Codex :-D

I didn't say Doom 3 was clunky, I said it was clunky compared to Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal, and it is. You're simply continuing to play dumb by pretending like you don't know what I mean by that. It's ok though. Trust me, I'll make sure to give you a textbook definition of every single word I use if I ever converse with you in the future.
 

Bad Sector

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You can use whatever terminology you choose, but I still think you knew exactly what I was talking about.

As i already explained, i might have some idea but if i got that wrong we'd be going nowhere. Though as it turns out this seems to be the case anyway.

The shooting is much tighter in Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. I've always said shooting mechanics, and you're the first person I've ever had try to claim they didn't know what I meant.

Chances are you were discussing with others that more or less had similar take on Doom 2016 vs Doom 3 as you and they assumed that whatever you were hinting at would be whatever they'd be thinking about. This only works if both parties are fine with agreeing at a vague level though. Personally i disagreed so i wanted more specific information (that so far you haven't given).

Doom 3 feels slow and clunky compared to Doom 2016 & Eternal. Again, that's not even debateable.

Kinda agree but i guess not for the same reason you think. To be debatable it requires going into specifics and avoiding expressions like "feels slow and clunky" as if they refer to the same element: Doom 3 does feel slow compared to Doom 2016 (and probably Eternal) because it is a slower paced game with a different style and feel to it than the latter games and indeed i do not think there would be anyone to argue that - or if they did, they'd need to make their case. However "feels clunky" is a completely different characterization and it'd need to be expanded on if someone wanted to debate it. As it is, it certainly isn't debatable - but that doesn't make it true or agreeable either. It just is some arbitrary subjective claim that may or may not have a base.

Things like speed and accuracy are NOT subjective.

"Speed" depends on the context and the context you seemed to have (since you are not specific), based on when you brought it up my guess is that it was about the "shooting mechanics". In that context, again my guess is that it is about how fast you shoot and/or reloading speed or the game requiring you to reload, which slows down the shooting? I guess that last one can be taken as a mechanic instead of feedback and it is indeed slower than a game like Doom 2016 that has no reloading, but preference for it is certainly subjective and if nothing else as a mechanic it does have a function of raising the tension during combat if you do not keep your ammo in mind (which is also what makes it subjective, as some people may like this while others find it annoying). Is that what you mean? If so then you could have been more specific and explained it without me having to guess.

"Accuracy" is something you just brought up now, i never made any claim about it being objective or subjective and to do so i'd need some context. Again, be specific.

That's like saying hot and cold are subjective.

Hot and cold are subjective as different people find different temperatures to be "hot" and "cold" and the words themselves do not refer to any specific temperatures. Something can be "hotter" or "colder" in relation to another, but what is "hot" and "cold" is based on the current context.

If you ask 10 FPS fans to compare Doom 3 to Doom 2016 and Eternal in the aspects I'm talking about

To do that you'd first need to properly explain what Doom 3 and Doom 2016 will be compared at, otherwise said "10 FPS fans" will be comparing whatever different things they have in mind and any agreement or disagreement will be coincidental and practically useless.

Trust me, I'll make sure to give you a textbook definition of every single word I use if I ever converse with you in the future.

I am not asking about word definitions, i am asking you to be specific in what you refer to. If you give me the word definition for "accuracy" it wont help me to understand the context you are using it on. I already gave you an example for what i mean with that and i do not think my example had anything with textbook definitions - instead my example was about the issue i have, my opinion on it and why i have that opinion with enough information for others to discuss it.
 

JDR13

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Chances are you were discussing with others that more or less had similar take on Doom 2016 vs Doom 3 as you and they assumed that whatever you were hinting at would be whatever they'd be thinking about. This only works if both parties are fine with agreeing at a vague level though. Personally i disagreed so i wanted more specific information (that so far you haven't given).

You keep using the word "vague" as a shield to pretend you're not playing dumb here. It's not vague to anyone who isn't being intentionally obtuse like you are. You're also being disingenuous now by claiming I wasn't more specific after you asked me to be. When I mentioned more specific things, you then responded by claiming the individual words I used weren't specific enough.

Kinda agree but i guess not for the same reason you think. To be debatable it requires going into specifics and avoiding expressions like "feels slow and clunky" as if they refer to the same element: Doom 3 does feel slow compared to Doom 2016 (and probably Eternal) because it is a slower paced game with a different style and feel to it than the latter games and indeed i do not think there would be anyone to argue that - or if they did, they'd need to make their case. However "feels clunky" is a completely different characterization and it'd need to be expanded on if someone wanted to debate it. As it is, it certainly isn't debatable - but that doesn't make it true or agreeable either. It just is some arbitrary subjective claim that may or may not have a base.

You really didn't need that many words to admit that you know what I'm saying. I honestly think you just like to type.

"Speed" depends on the context and the context you seemed to have (since you are not specific), based on when you brought it up my guess is that it was about the "shooting mechanics". In that context, again my guess is that it is about how fast you shoot and/or reloading speed or the game requiring you to reload, which slows down the shooting? I guess that last one can be taken as a mechanic instead of feedback and it is indeed slower than a game like Doom 2016 that has no reloading, but preference for it is certainly subjective and if nothing else as a mechanic it does have a function of raising the tension during combat if you do not keep your ammo in mind (which is also what makes it subjective, as some people may like this while others find it annoying). Is that what you mean? If so then you could have been more specific and explained it without me having to guess.

Sure, preference is subjective. That we can agree on.

Hot and cold are subjective as different people find different temperatures to be "hot" and "cold" and the words themselves do not refer to any specific temperatures. Something can be "hotter" or "colder" in relation to another, but what is "hot" and "cold" is based on the current context.

Have you ever been diagnosed with any sort of learning disability? Not trying to be insulting here, I'm just curious if there's something I should be aware of.

To do that you'd first need to properly explain what Doom 3 and Doom 2016 will be compared at, otherwise said "10 FPS fans" will be comparing whatever different things they have in mind and any agreement or disagreement will be coincidental and practically useless.

Or, I could simply ask "Does Doom 3 feel slow and clunky compared to Doom 2016 and/or Doom Eternal", and the majority who have played both and are honest are going to reply "Yes".
 

Wunderbar

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Bad Sector i think you should stop replying to this guy. JDR13 is a resident troll who like to passively-aggressively argue about irrelevant stuff for many pages, only to post a shitty reaction image or make a snide remark in the end.
 

JDR13

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Bad Sector i think you should stop replying to this guy. JDR13 is a resident troll who like to passively-aggressively argue about irrelevant stuff for many pages, only to post a shitty reaction image or make a snide remark in the end.

Are you fucking kidding? Exactly what part about what I've said is trolling?

It sounds like you're still butthurt about something.
 

Darth Roxor

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JDR13 is not a troll

memri1.png
 

Bad Sector

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You keep using the word "vague" as a shield to pretend you're not playing dumb here. It's not vague to anyone who isn't being intentionally obtuse like you are. You're also being disingenuous now by claiming I wasn't more specific after you asked me to be. When I mentioned more specific things, you then responded by claiming the individual words I used weren't specific enough.

But you weren't specific enough, i explained how and even gave an example of what i mean to be specific.

You really didn't need that many words to admit that you know what I'm saying. I honestly think you just like to type.

Did you stop reading after the "Kinda agree" bit? There is a "but" following with text which should have helped to understand that....

Or, I could simply ask "Does Doom 3 feel slow and clunky compared to Doom 2016 and/or Doom Eternal", and the majority who have played both and are honest are going to reply "Yes".

...asking if Doom 3 feels "slow and clunky" compared to Doom 2016 would have exactly the issue i describe in what you found to be too many words.
 

JDR13

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But you weren't specific enough, i explained how and even gave an example of what i mean to be specific.

We'll just agree that I wasn't specific enough for you. Thing is, I've had many similar discussions with other fans of these games, and you're the only person to claim that they didn't understand what I was talking about.

...asking if Doom 3 feels "slow and clunky" compared to Doom 2016 would have exactly the issue i describe in what you found to be too many words.

It's an issue to you, yes. We've already established that.
 

Bad Sector

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We'll just agree that I wasn't specific enough for you. Thing is, I've had many similar discussions with other fans of these games, and you're the only person to claim that they didn't understand what I was talking about. [...] It's an issue to you

Others you have interacted with may simply not cared to argue with those points, either because they saw no reason to bother or because they had a general agreement with your preference of Doom 2016 over Doom 3 and didn't consider to go into details to find out if you were agreeing on the same exact topics or just had a misunderstanding and never bothered to look into it further than "we agree that Doom 2016 is Doom 3 over some areas that sound the same" (but not necessarily the same areas - remember: "clunky" is a vague non-descriptive term, what you mean with it and what someone else means with it can be very different but if you both happen to consider one game "clunkier" than another you'll both agree with the characterization even if you actually refer to different things - but unless you get into specific details you'll never know that and think you refer to the same thing). But i already explained that previously.

Also that you interacted with people like that isn't really relevant to the discussion, what i asked you is to be more specific in your criticism so that i wont have to guess what you mean (like i ended up having to do above for speed) and gave you an example of what i mean. Assuming of course you want to continue this discussion, as i get the impression you are not really interested in it :-P
 

JDR13

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Others you have interacted with may simply not cared to argue with those points, either because they saw no reason to bother or because they had a general agreement with your preference of Doom 2016 over Doom 3 and didn't consider to go into details to find out if you were agreeing on the same exact topics or just had a misunderstanding and never bothered to look into it further than "we agree that Doom 2016 is Doom 3 over some areas that sound the same" (but not necessarily the same areas - remember: "clunky" is a vague non-descriptive term, what you mean with it and what someone else means with it can be very different but if you both happen to consider one game "clunkier" than another you'll both agree with the characterization even if you actually refer to different things - but unless you get into specific details you'll never know that and think you refer to the same thing). But i already explained that previously.

Also that you interacted with people like that isn't really relevant to the discussion, what i asked you is to be more specific in your criticism so that i wont have to guess what you mean (like i ended up having to do above for speed) and gave you an example of what i mean. Assuming of course you want to continue this discussion, as i get the impression you are not really interested in it :-P

No, this has nothing to do with preferences. We discussed how it's slower and clunkier than the other games. It's not rocket science, and there's nothing vague about it.

It's entirely relevant, because it supports what I said that you're either being intentionally obtuse just to argue or that you're a fucking idiot.
 

Bad Sector

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No, this has nothing to do with preferences. We discussed how it's slower and clunkier than the other games. It's not rocket science, and there's nothing vague about it.

Come on, read the text you are replying to properly, the "preference" in the text you quoted isn't about any bits you brought up, it is about having an overall preference towards one game (in this case Doom 2016) over another (in this case Doom 3).

(also we discussed and agreed that Doom 3 has a slower pace than Doom 2016, which is something i never really argued against anyway, though we didn't manage to discuss - let alone agree on - Doom 3 being clunky or clunkier since you haven't specified so far what exactly you mean with that despite me asking several times)
 

JDR13

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No, this has nothing to do with preferences. We discussed how it's slower and clunkier than the other games. It's not rocket science, and there's nothing vague about it.

Come on, read the text you are replying to properly, the "preference" in the text you quoted isn't about any bits you brought up, it is about having an overall preference towards one game (in this case Doom 2016) over another (in this case Doom 3).

(also we discussed and agreed that Doom 3 has a slower pace than Doom 2016, which is something i never really argued against anyway, though we didn't manage to discuss - let alone agree on - Doom 3 being clunky or clunkier since you haven't specified so far what exactly you mean with that despite me asking several times)

Oh I read your bullshit before replying. You're just continuing to rationalize that other people have only agreed with me because we have the same preferences or that maybe they didn't fully understand.

Thing is, not everyone is a retard who needs every word broken down and defined in order to understand something that's not complicated to begin with.
 

Bad Sector

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Oh I read your bullshit before replying.

Then why did you write "this has nothing to do with preferences" when in the text you quoted i didn't bring up preferences aside from, well...

You're just continuing to rationalize that other people have only agreed with me because we have the same preferences or that maybe they didn't fully understand.

...your continued misunderstanding of what i already wrote twice. Eh, honestly i begin to lose interest, but i'll make a third attempt anyway. What i described wasn't that people agreed with you because they had the same preferences as you, in fact i didn't mention the reason they agreed with you at all. What i wrote was that, if these people already had a general agreement with your preference of Doom 2016 over Doom 3 (ie. this is a precondition to the main point) then when you expressed your "clunky" characterization of Doom 3 in comparison with Doom 2016 without going into specifics over what exactly you mean with it, and since the word "clunky" doesn't describe anything specific, they could have had a different interpretation of what it means even if both you and them would have used the same word to describe your take on the game - but since you didn't went into specifics on what you mean with that (you just agreed that it was "clunky", which by itself is a vague word that does not describe anything specific) you wouldn't have known and your only take from the interaction is that they agreed with you - even if that might not have actually been the case. Or to put it in another way, you could have used the same word, and agreed that this word applies to the game but each one of you have a different meaning for what that word means in the context of the game, but since you seemingly agreed and were already biased towards having a similar take on the game anyway, you wouldn't know about that difference of opinion unless you had decided to go into specifics and describe what exactly you mean with it.

This actually happens often: as a hopefully more obvious example, someone may say that game XYZ "sucks", another says "sure it sucks" but while both agree that it "sucks" unless they go into specifics about what exactly "sucks" they will probably refer to different aspects which may not even be of the same nature at all (e.g. for the first person the game may "suck" because they dislike the writing, which is largely up to someone's preference, but for the second person the game may "suck" because it randomly crashes several times whenever they play it, which is very rarely something one would prefer to happen) and still feel in agreement about the game's "sucking".

Also i didn't mention that they didn't understand (i do not have that low of an opinion over theoretical people i do not know :-P), i mentioned that they just weren't interested in arguing.
 

Blutwurstritter

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Oh I read your bullshit before replying.

Then why did you write "this has nothing to do with preferences" when in the text you quoted i didn't bring up preferences aside from, well...

You're just continuing to rationalize that other people have only agreed with me because we have the same preferences or that maybe they didn't fully understand.

...your continued misunderstanding of what i already wrote twice. Eh, honestly i begin to lose interest, but i'll make a third attempt anyway. What i described wasn't that people agreed with you because they had the same preferences as you, in fact i didn't mention the reason they agreed with you at all. What i wrote was that, if these people already had a general agreement with your preference of Doom 2016 over Doom 3 (ie. this is a precondition to the main point) then when you expressed your "clunky" characterization of Doom 3 in comparison with Doom 2016 without going into specifics over what exactly you mean with it, and since the word "clunky" doesn't describe anything specific, they could have had a different interpretation of what it means even if both you and them would have used the same word to describe your take on the game - but since you didn't went into specifics on what you mean with that (you just agreed that it was "clunky", which by itself is a vague word that does not describe anything specific) you wouldn't have known and your only take from the interaction is that they agreed with you - even if that might not have actually been the case. Or to put it in another way, you could have used the same word, and agreed that this word applies to the game but each one of you have a different meaning for what that word means in the context of the game, but since you seemingly agreed and were already biased towards having a similar take on the game anyway, you wouldn't know about that difference of opinion unless you had decided to go into specifics and describe what exactly you mean with it.

This actually happens often: as a hopefully more obvious example, someone may say that game XYZ "sucks", another says "sure it sucks" but while both agree that it "sucks" unless they go into specifics about what exactly "sucks" they will probably refer to different aspects which may not even be of the same nature at all (e.g. for the first person the game may "suck" because they dislike the writing, which is largely up to someone's preference, but for the second person the game may "suck" because it randomly crashes several times whenever they play it, which is very rarely something one would prefer to happen) and still feel in agreement about the game's "sucking".

Also i didn't mention that they didn't understand (i do not have that low of an opinion over theoretical people i do not know :-P), i mentioned that they just weren't interested in arguing.
From personal experience I can say that at some point during arguments a pat on the back and the line "You're right honey." works wonders, especially if you're accused to be obtuse and not understanding.
 

toughasnails

Guest
Are you fucking kidding? Exactly what part about what I've said is trolling?

It sounds like you're still butthurt about something.
If it means anything to you I don't think you're trolling.
I think that you have much harder time precisely articulating your meaning than Bad Sector does. I saw elsewhere that he's pretty knowledgeable on programming and game design, he's someone with an engineer mindset.
Now it might be that you genuinely feel certain way about Doom 3. It might also be that you were convinced that your opinion is shared by the broad consensus, that it is something that is immediately obvious. For that reason it isn't something that you reflected on or ever tried to articulate in detail and with precision, which is something that Bad Sector can do. Which is why you are so frustrated here. It might be that you don't even have a vocabulary to express your opinion to someone with more intimate knowledge of game design.
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,930
Location
The Swamp
...your continued misunderstanding of what i already wrote twice. Eh, honestly i begin to lose interest, but i'll make a third attempt anyway. What i described wasn't that people agreed with you because they had the same preferences as you, in fact i didn't mention the reason they agreed with you at all. What i wrote was that, if these people already had a general agreement with your preference of Doom 2016 over Doom 3 (ie. this is a precondition to the main point) then when you expressed your "clunky" characterization of Doom 3 in comparison with Doom 2016 without going into specifics over what exactly you mean with it, and since the word "clunky" doesn't describe anything specific, they could have had a different interpretation of what it means even if both you and them would have used the same word to describe your take on the game - but since you didn't went into specifics on what you mean with that (you just agreed that it was "clunky", which by itself is a vague word that does not describe anything specific) you wouldn't have known and your only take from the interaction is that they agreed with you - even if that might not have actually been the case. Or to put it in another way, you could have used the same word, and agreed that this word applies to the game but each one of you have a different meaning for what that word means in the context of the game, but since you seemingly agreed and were already biased towards having a similar take on the game anyway, you wouldn't know about that difference of opinion unless you had decided to go into specifics and describe what exactly you mean with it..

We did go into specifics. It has nothing to do with any kind of preconditions or already having a general agreement with anything. It's about comparing certain aspects and acknowledging the differences between them.

I've never seen someone try so hard to bullshit just because they don't like what someone else is pointing out. Now please fuck right off with this long-winded trolling. You've already dragged the thread into oblivion with your fake "misunderstandings".
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,930
Location
The Swamp
If it means anything to you I don't think you're trolling.
I think that you have much harder time precisely articulating your meaning than Bad Sector does. I saw elsewhere that he's pretty knowledgeable on programming and game design, he's someone with an engineer mindset.
Now it might be that you genuinely feel certain way about Doom 3. It might also be that you were convinced that your opinion is shared by the broad consensus, that it is something that is immediately obvious. For that reason it isn't something that you reflected on or ever tried to articulate in detail and with precision, which is something that Bad Sector can do. Which is why you are so frustrated here. It might be that you don't even have a vocabulary to express your opinion to someone with more intimate knowledge of game design.

I think he simply has a much harder time understanding basic things than the average gamer here, or he's just good at pretending that. The things I've said don't need to be further expanded upon because they're obvious to anyone who's played both games (which he claims he has) or isn't completely dense. I think it's pretty obvious though that this is more about him not wanting to admit something because he feels that it somehow brings down the game he likes rather than just acknowledging that each game has different strengths.
 

Bigg Boss

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
7,528
Bad Sector i think you should stop replying to this guy. JDR13 is a resident troll who like to passively-aggressively argue about irrelevant stuff for many pages, only to post a shitty reaction image or make a snide remark in the end.

Are you fucking kidding? Exactly what part about what I've said is trolling?

It sounds like you're still butthurt about something.
I've disagreed with this guy (JD) on several occasions but he is no troll.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,223
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I think it's pretty obvious though that this is more about him not wanting to admit something because he feels that it somehow brings down the game he likes rather than just acknowledging that each game has different strengths.

Eh, not at all, my enjoyment of a game does not rely nor is affected by others' opinions. I do not live in a bubble, i am aware of Doom 2016's reception. Notice that when i made general comparisons between Doom 2016 to Doom 3 they were about which one i prefer, not which one is better received.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
12,872
Location
Eastern block
JDR is literally a 60 year old graphics whore

Being an old decline lover is normal at RPG Watch where it is common to have an inverse correlation between age and good taste
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,930
Location
The Swamp
JDR is literally a 60 year old graphics whore

Being an old decline lover is normal at RPG Watch where it is common to have an inverse correlation between age and good taste

I thought the Codex was the primary haven for oldfags who are stuck in the past.
 

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