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Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

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Mar 18, 2009
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Don't know why but I don't feel the urge to play this again after finishing it (twice in a row). I think the rhythm-like combat got tiresome fast for me, even if I loved my time with the game. Weird, I know.

I played it few more times but then I was using an increased spirit emblem cap mod which allowed me to fuck around with all the tools more. It's a good game but it's not something you can play over and over once you git gud. At the very least long break is required until you forget enough.
 
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Owl (Father) is probably the best bossfight From has ever done. Everything about it is amazing, especially the feints that he does reacting to your own moves (i.e. overhead slash changes into spinning slash if you sidestep early). Great stuff.
 
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HeatEXTEND

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Played a fair bit after caving to the steam sale and
the big red kanji and the split-second shine, and the audio cues, not clear enough to you? You see, this is actually one of those part where we can argue that Fromsoft are streamlining their game; you know, big red kanji appearing above the PC's head, in addition to those split-second shine and the audio cues when enemies perform perilous attacks, these features reeks some kind of handholding. And yet, here you are, proclaiming out loud that the game made it *impossible to react on instinct*, that some you *can't just look at the enemy to expect their attacks*, despite the big ass red kanji and many other cues.
Those cues are the worst, sound maybe, but not the fucking red marker. It forces your brain into plz-pick-option-mode which is lame and at least for me makes it harder, not easier, to naturally react.
As for comparison to *other* action games, well, I've conceded this point; I haven't played much action games, so I don't have anything to say when comparing Sekiro to other action games.
It's not an "action game, by that metric it'd be shit and it's not i.e. it's not an action game :buildawall:
 
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Alright, Sword Saint Isshin down. He gave me a lot of trouble and the fight wasn't nearly as good as Owl (Father), but still fun. It seems his attack patterns were designed so as to punish parry spam (which works on faster enemies).

After a few tries I decided to try firecrackers and they're amazing here. I don't think they should work on every phase, but they do.

Anyway, my least favourite boss in the game was Demon of Hatred (I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way), simply because it didn't feel like it belonged in the game at all, felt more like a Bloodborne boss. Also took me many attempts.

I got the homecoming ending and I'm not sure if I'm going to go to NG+ and beyond to see the others. Great game but it's very tiresome to play.
 

Black Angel

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Those cues are the worst, sound maybe, but not the fucking red marker. It forces your brain into plz-pick-option-mode which is lame and at least for me makes it harder, not easier, to naturally react.
The point is to differentiate between attacks and how to deal with them, kinda like rock-paper-scissor. In Soulsborne, there's no differentiation between enemy attacks, thus literally everything can be dodged, and there's really nothing else to it than bad timing. But yeah, they could've done it better, the sound cues alone should be enough to alert the players that undodgeable (except for grabbing attack), unblockable attacks are coming, and then let them react accordingly to where the enemy weapon is coming from. For example, a certain enemy's sweep can be clearly seen coming as the grasses around him is flying around due to the weapon being swept across the ground.

Still, the big ass red kanji in addition to already clear enough cues can be said to be part of Fromsoft's slowly streamlining their game, among different things.
 

Squid

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After a few tries I decided to try firecrackers and they're amazing here. I don't think they should work on every phase, but they do.
Firecrackers are really good for just about anything. I don't use them much anymore because they hurt me more than they help if I don't actually stun the opponent. But I also play far more aggressively now that I've beaten the game three times.

I got the homecoming ending and I'm not sure if I'm going to go to NG+ and beyond to see the others. Great game but it's very tiresome to play.
I feel each NG cycle gets a bit easier in some ways. It's more punishing but you've refined yourself more each time around, your attack power can keep growing with memories (or 5 skill points if you have no skills left to acquire). The early game is nearly a joke because they're simpler bosses and enemies and you know how to steam roll them and you're more powerful than having 1 or 2 attack power. I don't even die in NG+ cycles until the raging bull boss because that one always throws me in for a loop. I actually have to sit up and pay attention to it unlike the other bosses before Guardian Ape and Corrupted Monk.

But if you don't feel like continuously playing it for the other content, then don't really. Shura ending has a fight that's not in the normal game. You already probably beat all the other bosses you possibly could from the sounds of it.
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
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the sound cues alone should be enough to alert the players that undodgeable (except for grabbing attack), unblockable attacks are coming, and then let them react accordingly to where the enemy weapon is coming from.
Why not include grabs? The point should be "you can't deflect this", nice and simple, very relevant to how the gameplay is set up. As is it just enforces the Sekiro: Beat Master™ feel and doesn't actualy streamline shit. Which is lame because it's a small addition, just a symbol that shows up as an alert, that disproportionally affects the feel of the game. To me this enforces the idea that they were looking for the Tenchu
which I found out was made by FS, makes perfect sense
sekiro.png
feel, and actively wanted to not stray too close to actual "Brawler" gameplay. Also you should play some easy-to-get-into proper "brawlers", they really are great fun, get some perspective:

MGS Rising: Fun mechanics, satisfying gameplay, cool weapons. Non-conventional storyline with fun exposition if your into that shit. Nice music as well :cool:
Killer is Dead: Pretty much Sekiro if Sekiro leaned harder into brawler gameplay, as in quite rigid for a brawler. Still good fun and an esoteric story.
Point being Sekiro is a stealth game with bossfights, not a brawler.
fucking kanji:argh:
 
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Tenchu which I found out was made by FS

From only published some Tenchu games (well, they did develop one downloadable-only spinoff puzzle title in 2008, Shadow Assault), the developers were Acquire and K2.

But yes, it's well known that Sekiro started development as a Tenchu sequel. However, it's not a stealth game at all. Neither is it a character action game, like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden.

I think of it as a long boss rush with a cool story/world (a lot of it is pretty well-hidden despite a greater focus on narrative compared to other FS games) and some traversal/incidental stealth gameplay. The regular enemies are not even worth considering and you can skip most of them.

Most people who say "oh, it's just a rhythm game" suck at it and never bothered to learn and/or finish it. It has well-defined rules for combat but there is some room for creativity with prosthetics. In fact, prosthetics make a lot of fights almost trivial. People just generally aren't creative and/or are too butthurt that you can't mindlessly spam evade/roll and win every fight.

I personally like the incentive to be more aggressive and man up instead of abusing i-frames like a bitch. Besides, the parry system is very lenient once you get the hang of it.
 
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Silva

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Nobody will cite that Dragon fight in the clouds? I know it's weaksauce as a fight but those visuals, the music, the lore (you killing a fucking god!) makes it awesome.

Another thing I like and this game does well is mid level goons that sometimes are tough as nails and kill you. I'm talking about the ninjas of course. On par with DS1 Dark Knights, DS3 Irithil outrider knights and BB hunters.

But yeah, nothing beats Owl Father and Isshin. Probably in all Soulsdom. I would put Ludwig, Sister (El)friede and probably Artorias with them in my top 5.
 
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I wasn't crazy about Isshin, but Owl (Father) was definitely my favourite bossfight, probably in all of Fromsoft games.

I think Sekiro also does puzzle bossfights better than any other From game. The temple monkeys and the dragon were scripted/gimmick bosses but they were fun and definitely a step up from anything in Souls.
 
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As far as gimmick boss fights go, Divine Dragon is the best one I've seen from FROM. It's a nice set piece. Bed of Chaos it certainly isn't.
 
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Hassar

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Dec 6, 2016
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Tenchu which I found out was made by FS

From only published some Tenchu games (well, they did develop one downloadable-only spinoff puzzle title in 2008, Shadow Assault), the developers were Acquire and K2.

But yes, it's well known that Sekiro started development as a Tenchu sequel. However, it's not a stealth game at all. Neither is it a character action game, like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden.

I think of it as a long boss rush with a cool story/world (a lot of it is pretty well-hidden despite a greater focus on narrative compared to other FS games) and some traversal/incidental stealth gameplay. The regular enemies are not even worth considering and you can skip most of them.

Most people who say "oh, it's just a rhythm game" suck at it and never bothered to learn and/or finish it. It has well-defined rules for combat but there is some room for creativity with prosthetics. In fact, prosthetics make a lot of fights almost trivial. People just generally aren't creative and/or are too butthurt that you can't mindlessly spam evade/roll and win every fight.

I personally like the incentive to be more aggressive and man up instead of abusing i-frames like a bitch. Besides, the parry system is very lenient once you get the hang of it.

The game’s combat system has a rhythm to it. If you don’t learn it, you won’t progress. Miyazaki has referred to this rhythm before ("The resurrection system is not created to make the game easier in any way. It's created to assist the flow of battle and that general rhythm and tempo throughout the game that was made difficult by that constant pressure of death and that constant fear of death." -Miyazaki, source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sekiro-shadows-die-twice-is-not-part-of-soulsborne/1100-6459819/).

Sekiro is not Dance Dance Revolution but the combat system definitely has a flow to it which punishes you if you get desynchronized from it.

That is what is meant by rhythm. Also, while using tools/prosthetics adds notes of flair, they never become overwhelming advantages. You can’t brute force your way through the game - you adapt to the rhythm of each encounter or die. Which is the reverse of what you claim.
 
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1. I never said there's no rhythm to the game, I merely criticized the position of some that try to demean the combat system by saying there's nothing outside of rhythm or that the existence of a rhythm (as opposed to iframe roll spam) makes it any less worthy.

2. Some tools/prosthetics absolutely do confer an overwhelming advantage - Malcontent on Demon of Hatred and Corrupted Monk, Firecrackers on the Guardian Ape and Isshin, Mist Raven on the drunkards, etc. It's not just "notes of flair".

3. I never claimed that you can "brute force your way through the game" or anything of the sort. That's a complete strawman. I like the incentive that the player has to be aggressive - i.e. you can't just parry spam your way to victory, you need to press your advantage with attacks and even get around their guard to lower their vitality, especially on high poise bosses. So, no, nothing that you wrote is "the opposite of what I claim".

Besides, the parry system is extremely lenient - a more strict rhythm-based system would simply lock you out of consecutive attempts after a failed parry (which doesn't happen in Sekiro) and it would make the game much harder and arguably less fun. I'm sure the team considered it.
 
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Black Angel

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Why not include grabs? The point should be "you can't deflect this", nice and simple, very relevant to how the gameplay is set up. As is it just enforces the Sekiro: Beat Master™ feel and doesn't actualy streamline shit. Which is lame because it's a small addition, just a symbol that shows up as an alert, that disproportionally affects the feel of the game.
Sorry, had a bit of a brainfart atm, so I couldn't really get what you meant here; are you saying that grabs should also be undodgeable? If so, I'm not sure if that can be called "doesn't streamline", because making it so that perilous moves undodgeable across the board is...well, streamlining. If we go by the assumption that Sekiro not really having i-frames per se, with how thrusting attacks can only be dodged *specifically* by dodging it sideways other than perfectly deflected/Mikir counter, and sweeping attacks meant as an attack targeted at your feet (and thus can only be jumped over), then it makes sense for grabs to be the only one that can be dodged.

Besides, some grabs can actually be 'deflected', specifically the ones by the Snake Eyes minibosses, and others by using the Umbrella prosthetics (though I've only seen and did this on certain bosses, not sure if Ogre's grabs can be defended against with the Umbrella).
Nobody will cite that Dragon fight in the clouds? I know it's weaksauce as a fight but those visuals, the music, the lore (you killing a fucking god!) makes it awesome.
It's definitely THE best gimmick bossfight Fromsoft has ever conceived by far, but you're not actually 'killing' it. You simply broke its posture, making it 'safe' for you to extract its tears by opening up a wound on its tear duct with the Mortal Blade, the only weapon capable of bleeding (and, yeah, killing) immortal beings.

Why Sekiro didn't kill the Divine Dragon there and then? Most likely because its lifeforce is tied to Kuro, and by that extent, his own. Which is why you need to go through all those procedure to get the different endings; just the Dragon's Tear fed to Kuro would have you kill Kuro to severe the immortality; add the Aromatic Flower, from the branch that the previous Divine Heir took from the Divine Realm, and you get Purification, where you severe immortality by killing Sekiro and remove the Immortal Oath that tied Kuro to the Divine Dragon; add the Frozen Tears, which can only be gotten by feeding the Divine Child of Rejuvenation (likely created by the Senpou Temple as an attempt to produce their own Divine Heir) the Serpent Viscera from both Great Serpent encounter at the Sunken Valley, and you'll get the Dragon's Homecoming/Return where Kuro is reincarnated(?) as a child for the Divine Child. And then you journey West, from whence the Dragon came and 'return' the immortality.

Sekiro is not Dance Dance Revolution but the combat system definitely has a flow to it which punishes you if you get desynchronized from it.
Sounds a lot like the rest of the Soulsborne games, don't you think?

That is what is meant by rhythm. Also, while using tools/prosthetics adds notes of flair, they never become overwhelming advantages. You can’t brute force your way through the game - you adapt to the rhythm of each encounter or die. Which is the reverse of what you claim.
Some people actually brute force through the game; either by spamming R1/L1, or headstrongly insisted on playing it like it's a Souls game. Then they go around complaining how the game doesn't work, or that it doesn't play like a Souls game.

But true, you need to adapt or die, as is true with the Soulsborne games, and in fact with any other video games worth their salt. However, the tools/prosthetics CAN be an overwhelming advantages, depending on the situation, some even to the point of absolutely trivializing it.
  • The Firecrackers is a counter against bossfights with 'beast'/animal elements to it, like with the Guardian Ape (with its head still on its shoulder), the Bull boss(es), and Gyoubu who rode on a horse. Hell, the Firecrackers kicks asses in general, but against these bosses in particular it's a definitive advantage (though to some people, the Bulls are easier to parry instead).
  • The Umbrella is pretty OP; if you noticed how some attacks, when normally deflected, would knock Sekiro back in a very brief cinematic sequence, using the Umbrella against those attacks will *not* have Sekiro getting knocked back; it can even 'deflect' some grabbing attacks that normally you would need to dodge. The Fire version allows you to safely deflect fire attacks (including the Blazing Bull's and Old Isshin's 2nd phase), and the Purple version allows you to safely deflect all the Terror-based attacks without having to use Divine Confetti
  • The Spear *absolutely* trivializes the Headless Ape bossfights; without it, it would take substantially longer to defeat him, or rather, the fights with the Spear is just a whole lot faster in comparison. Combined with the Chasing Slice skill, it became an alternative quick dash/gap closer move in place of the Shuriken
  • The Fire-element prosthetics also *absolutely* trivializes the Red Eyes encounters, and in general if you could inflict Burning status on your target, it completely stops their posture regen
  • The Shuriken trivializes Lady Butterfly significantly, but only if you could catch up to her pace at first; then it's a matter of dealing with her jumping around and standing on her threads, and with the upgraded version of the Shuriken (Charged) you can knock her off her threads. Its most effective usage would be to interrupt enemies who backs off to regain their posture, and with the Chasing Slice skill it became your main dash/gap closer.
  • As mentioned above, the Malcontent upgrade to the Finger Whistle makes the Demon of Hatred fight much easier, and so does with the other Apparition-type enemies like the Headless and the Shichimen Warriors, but not to the point of trivial because you can only use it three times on them, unlike with the Spear on the Headless Ape or the Fire-elements prosthetics with the Red Eyes.
  • The Axe deals insane posture damage; sure, is slow and rather unwieldy, but that's the point. Kinda like using an ultra greatsword/greathammer, rather slow but hits hard. If used from the air (requires Mid-air Prosthetic Tools skill), the swing is a lot faster.
  • Finally, using the Mist Raven or the Sakura Dance combat art in place of the normal Lightning Reversal, which already trivializes all Lightning attacks without too much drawback except for one, completely removes the small Vitality damage you would normally got, which is the only aforementioned drawback, thus there's really no reason to not use either one of them for Lightning Reversal, other than to save Spirit Emblems.
That leaves us with the normal Finger Whistle, the Divine Abduction, and the Sabimaru. The first two's uses are mostly non-Bosses related, though Divine Abduction can be used on mini-Bosses, while Sabimaru was supposedly effective against the Okami (regular soldier mobs of the Fountainhead Palace), and also their 'descendants', including the Snake Eyes and O'rin of the Water; however, I don't find it very effective against the Snake Eyes, and O'rin regularly retreats to her incorporeal form making Sabimaru inefficient for me. Still, if you can inflict the Poison status with it, it can stop posture regen like the Burning status, and one of the upgrade lets you switch between your normal sword and Sabimaru attacks, AND allows you to evade damage when doing so; too complex play for me, tho.
 

Black Angel

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so I couldn't really get what you meant here; are you saying that grabs should also be undodgeable?
Naw, just that that kanji should be an option you can turn off :lol:
In fact, they should just get rid of it completely; it's enough to keep the audio cue, the shine, and other specific visual cue like grasses flying around due to the weapon being swept across the ground.

But I can see why they kept that big ass red kanji, Ghost of Tsushima also has similar mechanics with unblockable attacks, and supposedly a low sweep attacks can be jumped over, but I can't for the life of me see a low sweep and notice it fast enough to jump over it. Though that has more to do with the stupid over-the-shoulder camera, I'm confident enough to see a sweep and thrusts coming my way in a centered, lock-on camera like in Soulsborne.
 
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Sabimaru was supposedly effective against the Okami (regular soldier mobs of the Fountainhead Palace), and also their 'descendants', including the Snake Eyes and O'rin of the Water; however, I don't find it very effective against the Snake Eyes

The Snake Eyes before the Fort is completely trivialized by Sabimaru. Too bad it doesn't work on a much more annoying one, in Poison Pool.
 

Black Angel

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The Snake Eyes before the Fort is completely trivialized by Sabimaru. Too bad it doesn't work on a much more annoying one, in Poison Pool.
Yes, kinda make sense that the one in the Poison Pool is 'immune' to it, I guess? And the one at the Fort is indeed easier with the Sabimaru; however, I consistently found her hard to poison during her 2nd phase. I don't know if it's a real thing, if it's a thing at all, though.
 

Squid

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The Snake Eyes before the Fort is completely trivialized by Sabimaru. Too bad it doesn't work on a much more annoying one, in Poison Pool.
Weird. I never used the Sabimaru really in all four endings I did. I used it once, found it insanely ineffective on whatever I used it on and just forgot about it afterwards.
Yes, kinda make sense that the one in the Poison Pool is 'immune' to it, I guess? And the one at the Fort is indeed easier with the Sabimaru; however, I consistently found her hard to poison during her 2nd phase. I don't know if it's a real thing, if it's a thing at all, though.
Which is also weird considering you can poison that one if you force them into the poison swamp muck.
 
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One of the game's coolest secrets is in Mt. Kongo. Don't forget the kite!
 

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