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4X Master of Orion II turns 25

The best race is...


  • Total voters
    27

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I really liked the way they grouped ships into task forces, with pickets, escort (?) and capital ships.
This concept really ultimately just combined ships into "bigger ships", functionally adding nothing. What happened when you built such a thing? Well, you had a single blob unit composed of smaller, no longer indidividually interactable, units. It was basically a big ship made out of smaller ships, no different than just having a single ship, except bigger.

But I think handing micromanagement to the AI was misguided. It is much more efficient to abstract the things you don't want the player to five into.
You mean "dumb down the game"? Because that's the usual outcome of trying to abstract things, it makes the game dumber.

Btw, didn't Distant worlds try something similar? Does it work?
Poorly, really. Nothing is ever where it needs to be and you have no way of moving any of it, so construction projects stall constantly because none of the supplies are where they need to be. Space-Trucks travel about aimlessly only partially filled with goods and yet nothing is where it needs to be.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,357
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I really liked the way they grouped ships into task forces, with pickets, escort (?) and capital ships.
This concept really ultimately just combined ships into "bigger ships", functionally adding nothing. What happened when you built such a thing? Well, you had a single blob unit composed of smaller, no longer indidividually interactable, units. It was basically a big ship made out of smaller ships, no different than just having a single ship, except bigger.
Not really, if they can be targeted separately, and rearranged in several formations that would handle flank and rear attacks differently. The fact that it was badly implemented doesn't make it a bad idea. Actually, MOO2 made all smaller ships ineffective because of improved power/command point ratio, so there was no good reason to keep using smaller ships if you invested in larger hulls.

But I think handing micromanagement to the AI was misguided. It is much more efficient to abstract the things you don't want the player to five into.
You mean "dumb down the game"? Because that's the usual outcome of trying to abstract things, it makes the game dumber.
You still have to draw the line somewhere: Not abstracting things at all to avoid dumbing down would mean having stats for each individual recruits in your empire, and simulating each bullet individually. Abstraction is about removing factors that play next to no role at the scale the game is played on.
Otherwise, you end up with an unplayable mess like The campaign of North Africa where there is no proof that a single group in the world ever played a full campaign, or Master of Orion 3...

The other issue with simulating everything at the lowest possible level of detail means that you have a much higher chance of doing your simulation wrong actually, because at its core, a wargame is a simulation in which you try to match the decisions the player make with the strategic outcome the designer thinks the tactical parameters should have at this scale.

If you have a bazillion factors involved, then it makes it much harder to refine the model because you cannot map decisions and outcome anymore.

Of course, overly absrtracting a game can also lead to bad results:
I really like Quartermaster General, because it lets you play WW2 in a single evening. Same for Twilight Struggle with the cold war, but a lot of the card based choices make no sense when trying to match them to real-world decisions.
 
Last edited:

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,991
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Btw, didn't Distant worlds try something similar? Does it work?
Poorly, really. Nothing is ever where it needs to be and you have no way of moving any of it, so construction projects stall constantly because none of the supplies are where they need to be. Space-Trucks travel about aimlessly only partially filled with goods and yet nothing is where it needs to be.

Sounds like they were trying to be overly specific, having the exact resource needing to reach the exact planet. MOO2 never had such issues with its transport ships and food...
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
Patron
Developer
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
4,357
Location
Middle Empire
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Btw, didn't Distant worlds try something similar? Does it work?
Poorly, really. Nothing is ever where it needs to be and you have no way of moving any of it, so construction projects stall constantly because none of the supplies are where they need to be. Space-Trucks travel about aimlessly only partially filled with goods and yet nothing is where it needs to be.

So instead of representing the private sector, they represented bureaucracy?
 
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
1,563
Btw, didn't Distant worlds try something similar? Does it work?
Poorly, really. Nothing is ever where it needs to be and you have no way of moving any of it, so construction projects stall constantly because none of the supplies are where they need to be. Space-Trucks travel about aimlessly only partially filled with goods and yet nothing is where it needs to be.

Sounds like they were trying to be overly specific, having the exact resource needing to reach the exact planet. MOO2 never had such issues with its transport ships and food...
MOO2 never had such issues because they abstracted away time and place, and just decreed that 'everything just works'. Probably the right decision for MOO2, but I too would be interested in games that decided otherwise. It seems that many (most) players are really hostile to logistics systems where the baseline is not a smoothly running, well-oiled just-in-time system.
 

Endemic

Arcane
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
4,326
As far as I know the GoG version is 1.4 which was also a fan patch if I remember correctly.

IIRC it fixes a few bugs and adds a map setting. There's a v1.3 Windows 95 executable in the install folder.
 

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