What are the best CCGs?

[good fucking shit happen]

Dats rite. Aint nothin wrong with plain regular old cards tho. You just slap one of them 52 card decks down and gamble. Get some cash flow goin while hanging out with the niggas and smoking weed.

hell yea bro u know wassup

Dats it my man.

 

[mastroego]

So guys about Android Netrunner.

I'm intrigued by this game and I've read the rules (once). In other words, I know nothing about it, except that there's no way for me to play against the PC, which is my usual approach with games of any kind.
I really like the aesthetics and setting, it sucks that I can't play it as I usually would (leisurely) any other game.
Would you say it's possible for a middle-aged guy with very little time to spare and irregular schedules to get into this game?

How would I go about it?
That "Jinteki" site?
Tabletop simulator?
Are there even other ultra-beginners to play with?
Thanks for any hints.

 

[Jason Liang]

So guys about Android Netrunner.

I'm intrigued by this game and I've read the rules (once). In other words, I know nothing about it, except that there's no way for me to play against the PC, which is my usual approach with games of any kind.
I really like the aesthetics and setting, it sucks that I can't play it as I usually would (leisurely) any other game.
Would you say it's possible for a middle-aged guy with very little time to spare and irregular schedules to get into this game?

How would I go about it?
That "Jinteki" site?
Tabletop simulator?
Are there even other ultra-beginners to play with?
Thanks for any hints.

Jinteki. I would just ask for a volunteer in the chat who would teach you. Also watch some games on youtube first (or lurk some games on Jinteki) so you kind of understand the game basics.
Alternatively try to meet up with an Android Netrunner player that lives near you and have them teach you.

But overall the game is pretty easy to learn.
- Win the game by scoring or stealing 7 agenda points.
- Both players start with a hand size of 5, which they discard down to at the end of their turn.
- There are 3 types of damage that the Runner can suffer- net, meat and brain damage. When the runner takes damage, they discard that many cards from their hand randomly. If the runner suffers brain damage, their hand size is also permanently reduced by that amount. The runner loses the game if they take damage while they have no more cards in their hand.
- Corp turn is draw a card, and then 3 actions. Corp always starts the first turn, and loses the game if they must draw without any cards left in their deck (R&D).
- Runner turn is 4 actions. The runner starts with 4 MU to store programs.

The basic actions are:
- Draw 1 card.
- Gain 1 bit.
- Make a run for the Runner, or pay 1 to advance an agenda for the Corp.
- Install a card (Program, Hardware or Resource face up for Runner, and Agenda, Asset, Upgrade or ICE face down for Corp).
- Play a (Prep for Runner, Operation for Corp).
- Use an action printed on an installed card.
- Pay 2 to remove a tag for Runner, or pay 2 to trash a tagged Runner's resource for Corp.

To make a run, the runner declares which server to run against-
- HQ (Hand) - if successful, the runner accesses 1 random card from the Corp's hand.
- R&D (Deck) - if successful the runner accesses the top card of the Corp's deck.
- Archives (Discard) - If successful, runner accesses (and reveals) all cards in the Corp's discard pile.
- Any remote server-

The Corp creates remove servers by installing either an agenda, asset, upgrade, or ICE card face down. Each Asset or agenda creates its own remote server. The Corp can also install cards in a remote server that no longer has an asset or agenda stored in it, or install over any asset or agenda stored in a remote server (overriding it, and trashing the previously installed card). Each server can have any number of ICE cards installed on it (although there is a cumulative cost of 1 bit to install each piece of ICE on the same server beyond the first), as well as any number of Upgrade cards installed in it. There is no limit to the number of remote servers the Corp can create.
- If the runner successfully runs a remote server, they access any cards installed in that remote server (agendas, assets and upgrades).

When the runner accesses a card, they see it, and can either-
- steal it if it's an agenda
- trash it by paying its trash cost (if it's an asset or upgrade)
- Ice and Operations normally cannot be trashed

That's all the basic rules of Netrunner.

 

[spectre]

So guys about Android Netrunner.

If you didn't the official how to play video pretty much shows you everything you need. The rest is getting into the game and getting the feel of all the different factions.


I wouldn't have much hope on playing vs. the AI , the game is big on bluffing and mind games, and bots are just not good with that. The game really thrives on the banter, too.
I'm not sure about the current state of Jinteki, but the site is still up and at least you get everything in one place and it enforces the rules, so you will be playing it as intended from the get go.
The community used to be quite accommodating, so you shouldn't have problems finding someone to pop your cherry, but finding genuine noobs to play with, well, that's always tricky with old games like this.
One way to level the playing field is to just play starter decks (all LCGs have those), then allow the weaker player to deckbuild from the core set, while the more experienced guy still plays a starter deck... etc.
The seasoned player still has some advantage, but this way it's not entirely hopeless. At least it narrows down the pool of cards for you to worry about. Repeat until you feel you're ready to graduate.

I'm not really a noob at this game, but I also haven't really played in 6+ years. If you want, we could see if our schedules are compatible. Jinteki and Tabletop Sim are both good as far as I'm concerned.

 

[mastroego]

Good info guys.
And spectre, I might definitely take you up on that.

I mean if I can learn with patient opponents, it's not gonna be a problem if I lose a lot, or, like, always.
There's just something about this game which makes me wanna play it, even if it forces me to - gasp! - interact with other humans :D

No seriously. My AI-games preference is mostly because I'm not too comfortable with gaming schedules, but I'll see if I can work something out.
I'll need some days to watch a few tutorials though

 

[Pocgels]

If you like MtG but don't like WotC or the current state of standard or arena
it's worth checking out Spellweaver: https://spellweaver-tcg.com/

It's overall quite similar to Magic, has a nice mechanic to prevent mana flood/screw without removing lands and their effect on deckbuilding altogether. The other immediate difference is the presence of a speed mechanic and a front-line and back-line in combat between creatures that works to create interesting combat phases.

The game is made by a solo dev, though, so it has always suffered from slow updates (though if you hate keeping up with new metas all the time this could be a good thing) and I'm not too sure how the player counts are doing these days.

 

[Jason Liang]

Good info guys.
And spectre, I might definitely take you up on that.

I mean if I can learn with patient opponents, it's not gonna be a problem if I lose a lot, or, like, always.
There's just something about this game which makes me wanna play it, even if it forces me to - gasp! - interact with other humans :D

I've taught the original Netrunner dozens of times. The trick is to give the new player a strong but basic corp deck, and the teacher plays a significantly weaker and more basic runner deck. This allows for more interesting games where the teacher doesn't have to "hold back" and can instead show the new player how Runner is supposed to be played, even with weaker cards, yet the new player also feels like they are playing for a chance to win. Also the learner being able to see and read all the cards being played by the teacher, as the runner, is also a plus.

 

[anvi]

If you like MtG but don't like WotC or the current state of standard or arena

Hey that's me!

 

[mastroego]

Well I've started watching some Netrunner videos. There's a duo on youtube who made a series over the years.
I've watched two so far.
It really looks like a cool game.
I think I've grasped the (barebones) essentials.

Lack of free time is still the main issue here, though. Had ZERO time throughout the week.
However, I'm no hurry.

 

[NoSoup4you]

It is a cool game, it just got ruined around the time Damon Stone took over. Also, if you have the typical codexer politics, you will hate the fan committee who is designing the game now lol.

 

[mastroego]

I suspected as much, saw something of the discord channel.
Perhaps Jinteki is a better place? Also, is one forced to use new, woke cards? Can't two players just avoid them?

 

[NoSoup4you]

The game is the game, and the community is the community. You can't really have just part of it, unless you're playing with one friend locally or something.

 

[Jason Liang]

It is a cool game, it just got ruined around the time Damon Stone took over. Also, if you have the typical codexer politics, you will hate the fan committee who is designing the game now lol.

Netrunner is a pretty difficult game to design expansions for, due to how fine the balance and mechanical interaction of the original base set was. I know, since I worked on Zvi's Silent Impact expansion for the original Netrunner.

 

[Jason Liang]

An update on VtES:

Black Chantry has added Clan Ravnos to Drivethrucards.com print-on-demand. I would say that this makes VtES by far the most affordable high quality ccg you can get into in paper, if anyone has an itch for that. In total, the majority of Lasombra, Giovanni, Ravnos, Setite and Assamite, as well as their clan specific library cards and the Obtenebration, Necromancy, Chimerstry, Serpentis and Quietus card pools are available at a flat $0.35 USD per card - you can order a complete custom 102 card deck for about $35. And the premade starter decks available are even slightly discounted, good to pick up some basic cards, like say Deflections, in bulk.

Although, I would caution that, going forward, Giovanni, Assamite and Setite all became different clans in V5, with a different discipline spread for Assamite/ Banu Haqim (thaumaturgy instead of quietus) and Setite/ Ministry (protean instead of serpentis). And Ravnos are still... ded.

I will definitely be picking up the Ravnos cards to start rebuilding my VtES collection (I gave away all my cards 9 years ago before I went back to China to teach).

Also, the new V5 starters for Brujah, Gangrel, Ministry and Banu Haqim have been revealed. Very lovely art and some very cool new cards overall.

I can hardly believe that I'm actually excited about Brujah cards.

 

[NoSoup4you]

I've been trying to make a couple flavors of !brujah bruise and bleed work for awhile. Show of Force + Iron Glare gets you 5 bleed at no cost, and Spoils of War is a great bonus for successful actions. The problem is that potence combat fucking sucks and is always missing some piece or another.

V1: https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=a39f15fee96b493497ba5dfe64d13189
V2: https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=7d9e5f8d8f624078a5bfe71a4af58081

The DeSalle version lets you get up to a solid 2 stealth without taking slots away from combat cards, but the group 2 version gives you some bishops that can play Under Siege for a more legitimate defense than just back rushing.

In general, with the new stuff, I'm noticing that everything is just a remix of something old. E.g. giving the wrong clan access to an effect, or mashing together three different old cards for these new anarchs. I don't think there's actually any new design space in this game... It's rigid. Everything amounts to just bumping a number up by 1 or 2, and anything swingy is not tolerated.

 

[Jason Liang]

I've been trying to make a couple flavors of !brujah bruise and bleed work for awhile. Show of Force + Iron Glare gets you 5 bleed at no cost, and Spoils of War is a great bonus for successful actions. The problem is that potence combat fucking sucks and is always missing some piece or another.

V1: https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=a39f15fee96b493497ba5dfe64d13189
V2: https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=7d9e5f8d8f624078a5bfe71a4af58081

The DeSalle version lets you get up to a solid 2 stealth without taking slots away from combat cards, but the group 2 version gives you some bishops that can play Under Siege for a more legitimate defense than just back rushing.

In general, with the new stuff, I'm noticing that everything is just a remix of something old. E.g. giving the wrong clan access to an effect, or mashing together three different old cards for these new anarchs. I don't think there's actually any new design space in this game... It's rigid. Everything amounts to just bumping a number up by 1 or 2, and anything swingy is not tolerated.

The sheer number of Anarch vampires in group 6 should open up space for deckbuilding, especially with Barons getting their own personal Deflection and mini-2nd tradition. The group 6 Camarilla Assamite vampire pool is also a little nuts. Pretty much everyone has CEL, and princes at 5, 6 and 7 cap, and both primogens are really pushed as well.

I used to have a Blood Brothers deck, which is not all too different from !Brujah. The trick I found is that you still do need to play with some guns or other weapons, since you don't want to burn through your library and have no fighting ability left after the table collapses. Toreador CEL guns has always been a better combat deck than Immortal Grapple/ Disarm, for solid reasons. Psyche! has always trumped Immortal Grapple. !Brujah has unfortunately always been underdogs, lacking from the very beginning the insanely pushed Archbishops and Prisci that other Sabbat clans got, like Cailean, Genevieve or Lazverinus.

My best combat deck was an all-star Petaniqua/ Illusions of Kindred deck with Telepathic Trackings. And I've always played decks that could bruise at least a little, whether it's Ravnos with Trap + Apparition or Giovanni with Shambling Hordes.

Usually when a "new" decktype emerges, it's something that busts the game, like turbo- Una or Tupdogs or Imbued. It's better for the game to grow slowly, one slightly pushed vampire at a time. That new 5 cap anarch gangrel with +1 bleed is a good example of a design that is exciting without being blatantly busted. A lot of the best vampires ever printed have no ability other than a simple innate +1 bleed (think Siamese or Natalia). The game has a long history, and a lot of vampires are still just waiting for the right card or support to make them click. I've wanted to play Sascha Vykos Anarch Secession for years, and the new Anarch support will hopefully push the deck into contention.

 

[Silentstorm]

People still making more card games, including F2P ones because the market doesn't have enough, the newest twists from the upcoming Temperia:Soul Of Majest being...well, open hands, you can see what your opponent's hands are and vice-versa and you can plan around what they have and you assume the rest of the deck will be:


Well, it's certainly a gimmick alright, some games do have this, but you usually need to use spells or card effects to watch the opponent's hand or even one or two random cards, i have to say, looking at the trailer and the way the game looks...i feel like it's one more game that will last like a year at most before shutting down while Magic Arena prints money.

 

[NoSoup4you]

Not playing another digital card game until Duelyst relaunches. My 1v1 fix has been Final Fantasy in person lately.

Incidentally, I finally made a strong VTES deck that actually feels original. https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=6f9f568f0b454bd985e695b9297aca66

 

[0wca]

If it hasn't been mentioned yet - Legend of the Five Rings.

Played a couple of years ago so I'm not sure the state it's in now, but it was really fun and you could get all the cards if you bought a couple of large packs (again not sure how it works now).

 

[Doktor Best]

Best way to play ccgs is to play commander over spelltable/tabletop simulator/cockatrice.

Arena is shit now and everything else simply is not MTG unfortunately.

 

[NoSoup4you]

MTG is the Oblivion of card games.

 

[Jason Liang]

Not playing another digital card game until Duelyst relaunches. My 1v1 fix has been Final Fantasy in person lately.

Incidentally, I finally made a strong VTES deck that actually feels original. https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=6f9f568f0b454bd985e695b9297aca66

It's... kind of original, for being group 6 and based on Arishat, and Neonate Breach instead of KRC. Stealth voting has been a pretty standard tournament staple since Nos Princes and Ventrue with Obf. Reminds me of a Setite voter I used to play based on Finding the Path.

The stealth package is a little questionable. I've never cared for Swallowed by the Night, and Faceless Night is arguably the best card in Obf.

 

[NoSoup4you]

Not playing another digital card game until Duelyst relaunches. My 1v1 fix has been Final Fantasy in person lately.

Incidentally, I finally made a strong VTES deck that actually feels original. https://vdb.smeea.casa/decks?id=6f9f568f0b454bd985e695b9297aca66

It's... kind of original, for being group 6 and based on Arishat, and Neonate Breach instead of KRC. Stealth voting has been a pretty standard tournament staple since Nos Princes and Ventrue with Obf. Reminds me of a Setite voter I used to play based on Finding the Path.

The stealth package is a little questionable. I've never cared for Swallowed by the Night, and Faceless Night is arguably the best card in Obf.

I think Faceless Night is a lot more niche. In my last tournament game, no one even attempted to block me anyway once they saw Lost in Crowds. SbtN is my go-to second stealth card because it has two ways to cycle and protects you against grapple combat.

 

[NoSoup4you]

Also, I can't overstate how awesome Neonate Breach is when it's guaranteed to have targets. You have so much control over the table, you're often doing 8 pool between two people you want damaged, or making a deal without slowing yourself down at all. Barrenness is already a great card on its own, burning 2 blood "for free" and randomly hosing a bunch of different things - breed decks, Obedience, Govern/Enchant Kindred, etc. I'm a fan of just about any untap action in general.

 

[Jason Liang]

itz coming! itz almost here!