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How Will WOTC New Approach to Races Effect the Future CRPG?

Cryomancer

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All that got was devils and shit renamed. Kind of funny how this is still considered a big thing when it's not even close to the kind of censorship caused by SJWs now.

Yep. The damage caused by the SJW are far worst than the most zealot of christian. Anyway, Christians aren't wrong when they say that D&D is a very pagan game. I mean, reincarnation into other worlds, many Gods with different portfolios/domains, creatures from folklore like elves and gnomes(...) Wheel of Time in contrast is a fantasy series way more based in a monotheistic cosmological vision. Where you have a CREATOR and a "dark one" who can't create, merely corrupt the creation. LoTR too, is way more monotheistic in his world building.

As for "racial stereotype", IMO dwarf needs to be greedy stubborn manlets, otherwise, killing then would't be that fun.

Anyway, monsters are """problematic""" too.

 
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lycanwarrior

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Jan 1, 2021
Messages
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The ironic thing about making all races equal stat wise, is that it will no longer be any point from a game mechanics POV to run a "diversity squad". If all races and both sexes are the same, I can just as well just run a party of male humans.
So making the races equal will (in my case, at least) reduce diversity.

In terms of alignment/morality, I don't really have any problems with the monster races not leaning in any particular direction. Being more shades of grey might actually make them more interesting.

But if they are really going to equalize stats for all the races across the board, that is one DUMB feckin' decision I'm sad to say :negative:
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Yep. The damage caused by the SJW are far worst than the most zealot of christian. Anyway, Christians aren't wrong when they say that D&D is a very pagan game. I mean, reincarnation into other worlds, many Gods with different portfolios/domains, creatures from folklore like elves and gnomes(...) Wheel of Time in contrast is a fantasy series way more based in a monotheistic cosmological vision. Where you have a CREATOR and a "dark one" who can't create, merely corrupt the creation. LoTR too, is way more monotheistic in his world building.
It would be quite ironic for D&D to be a "very pagan game", considering that Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax were both devout Christians (at least at the time original D&D was developed) and that the cleric class is derived from the representation of medieval clergymen in Arthurian/Carolingian legends and similar fantasy literature, as well as from horror movies of the 50s/60s featuring a vampire/monster-hunter type character. The OD&D cleric is a representative of good against supernatural forces that can be turned through the power of a holy symbol, and the cleric is capable of divine magic with a selection of spells that are largely Biblical in inspiration. Clerics are even prohibited from edged weapons in order to avoid shedding blood (blunt weapons supposedly don't). :M

zmrjv8.png

Image from original Dungeons & Dragons "little brown booklets"
 

Melan

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It also neutered AD&D and turned it into the domain of limp-wristed renfaire rejects. Very nice, though, that number went up.
Please elaborate.
Second edition deeply sanitised AD&D. Gone were character options like the half-orc and the assassin, poison and demon summoning spells, but also the whole aesthetic of shady, mercenary characters doing questionable things to get ahead. Even the illusionist class was axed, with its super-interesting but slightly shady spell selection. Everything was retooled around the concept of big goddamn heroes who were, at worst, lovable rascals. The entire motivation structure of the game is retooled, from "every gp you loot is worth one XP" being your main motivation, to a milestone-based system. Demons, devils, and other cool antagonists were axed. The game's literary influences changed from Ffahrd and the Grey Mouser, Conan the Barbarian, or Cugel the Clever to fantasy trilogies written by cat ladies and wine aunts. AD&D's soul was torn from its chest.

This is not a modern fan theory, but a clearly communicated design aim, as outlined in Dragon Magazine (#154, "Angry Mothers From Heck"). Let me quote Jim "Judas" Ward here:

Avoiding the Angry Mother Syndrome is something that I talk about quite often at TSR, Inc. Simply put, if a topic will anger the normally calm, caring mother of a gamer, we aren’t interested in addressing that topic in any of our game products. Yes, I know that our company sells adventures full of swordsmen slashing their way through armies, with foul, smelly monsters waiting everywhere to crunch and eat player characters of every description. But I also know that there are clear differences between fighting for its own sake and fighting for a good cause. The good cause part is largely what role-playing is and should be all about.

I would like for all of you to think back on the best times you ever had in roleplaying. Every gamer should have at least one adventure that really stands out in his mind. You remember when you finished a big quest, did almost everything right, and the treasure was in your character’s arms and sparkling in your mind’s eye. In almost all of these cases there was an honorable, public-spirited, or life-saving goal at stake. That goal is the essence of what TSR wants to foster in its role-playing products. Sure, each product should be lots of fun to play and involve high adventure, but each product also has to have certain elements that any gamer’s mother in this or any other universe would smile at. These qualities must be present in each gamer’s role-playing to foster the right stuff.

Here is a case to illustrate this point. Ever since the Monster Manual came out in 1977, TSR has gotten a letter or two of complaint each week. All too often, such letters were from people who objected to the mention of demons and devils in that game book. One letter each week since the late 1970s adds up to a lot of letters, and I thought a lot about those angry moms. When the AD&D® 2nd Edition rules came out, I had the designers and editors delete all mention of demons and devils. The game still has lots of tough monsters, but we now have a few more pleased moms as well. (...)

TSR has produced its share of hack-andslash dungeons, but since the late 1970s much more time has been spent on the saving the princess idea. Saving the princess takes on many forms (in most cases it doesn’t even involve a princess), but the concept is almost always the same. Each module creates a situation in which the PCs have a goal worthy of their talents. TSR’s products have used hundreds of goals of this sort, such as actually saving a princess, curing silver dragons of a terrible disease, and protecting small towns from raiding giants. Those who play in these modules like heroic goals. They like the challenge of doing something tough; they like to receive rewards for helping others out; and they like to feel good about their characters after these PCs accomplish something useful.

Basically the exact same thing as the current SJW purge, but pushed on by a slightly different set of angry people. Just consider what would upset your average suburban mom. Every fucking thing teenage boys like, that's what, and that doesn't even address that AD&D used to be a game for an older, college aged demographic, which is something teenage boys also liked (since it made them feel they were sitting at the grown-ups' table).

TSR's later design philosophy is best summed up in their infamous Code of Ethics from a few years later, which reads like a SJW wishlist from a different era. (Spoilered for length, emphasis mine)

TSR CODE OF ETHICS

TSR, Inc., as a publisher of books, games, and game related products,
recognizes the social responsibilities that a company such as TSR must
assume. TSR has developed this CODE OF ETHICS for use in maintaining good
taste, while providing beneficial products within all of its publishing
and licensing endeavors.

In developing each of its products, TSR strives to achieve peak
entertainment value by providing consumers with a tool for developing
social interaction skills and problem-solving capabilities by fostering
group cooperation and the desire to learn. Every TSR product is designed
to be enjoyed and is not intended to present a style of living for the
players of TSR games.

To this end, the company has pledged itself to conscientiously adhere to
the following principles:

1: GOOD VERSUS EVIL

Evil shall never be portrayed in an attractive light and shall be used
only as a foe to illustrate a moral issue.
All product shall focus on the
struggle of good versus injustice and evil, casting the protagonist as an
agent of right. Archetypes (heroes, villains, etc.) shall be used only to
illustrate a moral issue. Satanic symbology, rituals, and phrases shall
not appear in TSR products.

2: NOT FOR DUPLICATION

TSR products are intended to be fictional entertainment, and shall not
present explicit details and methods of crime, weapon construction, drug
use, magic, science, or technologies that could be reasonably duplicated
and misused in real life situations. These categories are only to be
described for story drama and effect/results in the game or story.

3: AGENTS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT

Agents of law enforcement (constables, policemen, judges, government
officials, and respected institutions) should not be depicted in such a
way as to create disrespect for current established authorities/social
values.
When such an agent is depicted as corrupt, the example must be
expressed as an exception and the culprit should ultimately be brought to
justice.

4: CRIME AND CRIMINALS

Crimes shall not be presented in such ways as to promote distrust of law
enforcement agents/agencies or to inspire others with the desire to
imitate criminals. Crime should be depicted as a sordid and unpleasant
activity. Criminals should not be presented in glamorous circumstances.
Player character thieves are constantly encouraged to act towards the
common good.


5: MONSTERS

Monsters in TSR's game systems can have good or evil goals. As foes of
the protagonists, evil monsters should be able to be clearly defeated in
some fashion.
TSR recognizes the ability of an evil creature to change
its ways and become beneficial, and does not exclude this possibility in
the writing of this code.

6: PROFANITY

Profanity, obscenity, smut, and vulgarity will not be used.

7: DRAMA AND HORROR

The use of drama or horror is acceptable in product development. However,
the detailing of sordid vices or excessive gore shall be avoided. Horror,
defined as the presence of uncertainty and fear in the tale, shall be
permitted and should be implied, rather than graphically detailed.

8: VIOLENCE AND GORE

All lurid scenes of excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes,
depravity, lust, filth, sadism, or masochism, presented in text or
graphically, are unacceptable.
Scenes of unnecessary violence, extreme
brutality, physical agony, and gore, including but not limited to extreme
graphic or descriptive scenes presenting cannibalism, decapitation,
evisceration, amputation, or other gory injuries, should be avoided.

9: SEXUAL THEMES

Sexual themes of all types should be avoided. Rape and graphic lust
should never be portrayed or discussed. Explicit sexual activity should
not be portrayed. The concept of love or affection for another is not
considered part of this definition.

10: NUDITY

Nudity is only acceptable, graphically, when done in a manner that
complies with good taste and social standards. Degrading or salacious
depiction is unacceptable. Graphic display of reproductive organs, or any
facsimiles will not be permitted.

11: AFFLICTION

Disparaging graphic or textual references to physical afflictions,
handicaps and deformities are unacceptable.
Reference to actual
afflictions or handicaps is acceptable only when portrayed or depicted in
a manner that favorably educates the consumer on the affliction and in no
way promotes disrespect.

12: MATTERS OF RACE

Human and other non-monster character races and nationalities should not
be depicted as inferior to other races. All races and nationalities shall
be fairly portrayed.

13: SLAVERY

Slavery is not to be depicted in a favorable light; it should only be
represented as a cruel and inhuman institution to be abolished.


14: RELIGION AND MYTHOLOGY

The use of religion in TSR products is to assist in clarifying the
struggle between good and evil.
Actual current religions are not to be
depicted, ridiculed, or attacked in any way that promotes disrespect.
Ancient or mythological religions, such as those prevalent in ancient
Grecian, Roman and Norse societies, may be portrayed in their historic
roles (in compliance with this Code of Ethics.) Any depiction of any
fantasy religion is not intended as a presentation of an alternative form
of worship.

15: MAGIC, SCIENCE, AND TECHNOLOGY

Fantasy literature is distinguished by the presence of magic,
super-science or artificial technology that exceeds natural law. The
devices are to be portrayed as fictional and used for dramatic effect.
They should not appear to be drawn from reality. Actual rituals (spells,
incantations, sacrifices, etc.), weapon designs, illegal devices, and
other activities of criminal or distasteful nature shall not be presented
or provided as reference.

16: NARCOTICS AND ALCOHOL

Narcotic and alcohol abuse shall not be presented, except as dangerous
habits.
Such abuse should be dealt with by focusing on the harmful
aspects.

17: THE CONCEPT OF SELF IN ROLE PLAYING GAMES

The distinction between players and player characters shall be strictly
observed.

It is standard TSR policy to not use 'you' in its advertising or role
playing games to suggest that the users of the game systems are actually
taking part in the adventure. It should always be clear that the player's
imaginary character is taking part in whatever imaginary action happens
during game play. For example, 'you' don't attack the orcs--'your
character' Hrothgar attacks the orcs.

18: LIVE ACTION ROLE-PLAYING

It is TSR policy to not support any live action role-playing game system,
no matter how nonviolent the style of gaming is said to be. :)lol:)
TSR
recognizes the physical dangers of live action role-playing that promotes
its participants to do more than simply imagine in their minds what their
characters are doing, and does not wish any game to be harmful.

19: HISTORICAL PRESENTATIONS

While TSR may depict certain historical situations, institutions, or
attitudes in a game product, it should not be construed that TSR condones
these practices.

Over the next several years, TSR mainly produced game products that were unambiguously shit (some of the setting guides and computer games being partial exceptions). They banned all evil characters from the RPGA, and removed or bowdlerised the game's intetresting villains. They turned AD&D's grimy and shades-of-grey tone into a banal good-vs-evil dichotomy where good inevitably triumphs, even in a crapsack setting like Dark Sun or Ravenloft.

The end result was, in one word, neutered. Which is what will inevitably happen this time, too.
 

Nortar

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Pathfinder: Wrath
The end result was, in one word, neutered. Which is what will inevitably happen this time, too.

An interesting read.
So it looks like 3E was the most unshackled edition, that rectified many of the 2E taboos with supplements like the Book of Vile Darkness.
 

Melan

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Certainly, in many ways, 3.0 was seen (and even advertised) as a return to normal. WotC even ran ads with the slogan "What the Hell is a Baatezu?" after acquiring TSR.

The Book of Vile Darkness was kinda puerille, though (nipple clamps of exquisite pain? :lol:), and the dungeonpunk style that made up some of the art is very dated by now. WotC has always been a Seattle company, with weirdo purple-hair employees. In the early 2000s, this still meant "into BDSM and sleeping around", and not "wants to police your speech", although they were the same people, essentially, only the zeitgeist was different.
 

octavius

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Certainly, in many ways, 3.0 was seen (and even advertised) as a return to normal. WotC even ran ads with the slogan "What the Hell is a Baatezu?" after acquiring TSR.

I think "the Glabrezu in the gazebo" would make a good encounter. Hell, maybe it's already been done?
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
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I rarely pay attention to WOTC shit these days or 5e stuff except to PIRATE it if I feel like I want to hoard. So Youtube pops up a CFTV article


Like I said, this woke crap and "?? reverse gatekeeping ??"is a retarded trend. When the sales finally plummet what then?
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Like I said, this woke crap and "?? reverse gatekeeping ??"is a retarded trend. When the sales finally plummet what then?

If the sales will fall they'll just move on to the next target. The problem is that sales are unlikely to fall soon since too many consumers are either unaware normies or dedicated fans who will buy any new material from their beloved franchise even if said material is pure garbage.
 

Johnny Biggums

Learned
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Messages
223
Basically the exact same thing as the current SJW purge, but pushed on by a slightly different set of angry people.

Only it's not the exact same thing, because the specifics matter and the moral impulse behind the censorships is different. I'll just say it - one is basically good, the other is basically bad. Sure, it's kinda gay that your 1970s mom is livid about you roleplaying a diabolical wizard, but it's not equivalent to a turquoise haired stranger losing her shit because your wizard was manspreading on his phantom steed. The mom's moral impulse actually makes sense.
 

ㅤㅤㅤ

Learned
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Messages
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Just like real world human races differ from each other in physical and mental capabilities, moral and spiritual qualities, so should various races in a game's setting. Sometimes art should be closer to life
pomenitul, Polanski and KateMicucci, you rated this post negatively. I would like to hear the philosophical grounding you base your opposition on. Regardless of a purely materialist outlook or a spiritual one I can't think of any tenable position you could deny this from.
 

KateMicucci

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Messages
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Just like real world human races differ from each other in physical and mental capabilities, moral and spiritual qualities, so should various races in a game's setting. Sometimes art should be closer to life
pomenitul, Polanski and KateMicucci, you rated this post negatively. I would like to hear the philosophical grounding you base your opposition on. Regardless of a purely materialist outlook or a spiritual one I can't think of any tenable position you could deny this from.
I rated it positively. :positive:
 

perfectslumbers

Arbiter
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KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
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Messages
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This is the only damsel types you'll rescue in WOTC modern games. (Albeit with far less violence and maybe a prom party).
 

ㅤㅤㅤ

Learned
Joined
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Messages
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pomenitul, don't you have a reason for rating as you do other than sheer butthurt? I was genuinely interested in hearing about the system of thought in which what Willy wrote is shown to be wrong. If there isn't any thought behind it I'm very disappointed.
 

Cryomancer

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It would be quite ironic for D&D to be a "very pagan game", considering that Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax were both devout Christians (at least at the time original D&D was developed) and that the cleric class is derived from the representation of medieval clergymen in Arthurian/Carolingian legends and similar fantasy literature, as well as from horror movies of the 50s/60s featuring a vampire/monster-hunter type character. The OD&D cleric is a representative of good against supernatural forces that can be turned through the power of a holy symbol, and the cleric is capable of divine magic with a selection of spells that are largely Biblical in inspiration. Clerics are even prohibited from edged weapons in order to avoid shedding blood (blunt weapons supposedly don't). :M

This explains why magic users are so fragile and clerics so strong. Both of this guys approves CoDzillas. hu3hui3hu3
 

Melan

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Basically the exact same thing as the current SJW purge, but pushed on by a slightly different set of angry people.

Only it's not the exact same thing, because the specifics matter and the moral impulse behind the censorships is different. I'll just say it - one is basically good, the other is basically bad. Sure, it's kinda gay that your 1970s mom is livid about you roleplaying a diabolical wizard, but it's not equivalent to a turquoise haired stranger losing her shit because your wizard was manspreading on his phantom steed. The mom's moral impulse actually makes sense.
Nah, both are examples of shrieking harpies making mountains out of a molehill, and normal people caving to their insane demands instead of dismissing it as ridiculous bullshit.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut
Basically the exact same thing as the current SJW purge, but pushed on by a slightly different set of angry people.

Only it's not the exact same thing, because the specifics matter and the moral impulse behind the censorships is different. I'll just say it - one is basically good, the other is basically bad. Sure, it's kinda gay that your 1970s mom is livid about you roleplaying a diabolical wizard, but it's not equivalent to a turquoise haired stranger losing her shit because your wizard was manspreading on his phantom steed. The mom's moral impulse actually makes sense.
Nah, both are examples of shrieking harpies making mountains out of a molehill, and normal people caving to their insane demands instead of dismissing it as ridiculous bullshit.
The difference is the mom didn't actually play the game. If you kept the demons off the book covers, they generally didn't care.
Which is what a lot of the changes amounted to: changing covers/titles.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
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Messages
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I really should read that TSR Buck Rogers PDFs I pirated some years ago. I wonder if it is any good. To my knowledge there are a few versions.

TSR Buck Rogers Archive. (Sorry no DLs here its a product listing)

br25-box-book1.jpg

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br25-box-book3.jpg

551l8ybr8TPIZozSteGVTs0si34.jpg

BolleBuck.jpg

br25-box-screen.jpg

br25-box-count.jpg

br25-box-temp.jpg

br25-adv-book1.jpg

br25-adv-book2.jpg

br25-adv-book3.jpg

36666178d36e2b73c6087d463ef887b7.jpg

111a50242fbbaa24cab534b01e9f1202.jpg

br25-adv-count.jpg

br25-adv-1.jpg

br25-adv-2.jpg

br25-adv-3.jpg

br25-xxvca1.jpg

br25-xxvcr1.jpg
 
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Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Messages
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TSR's later design philosophy is best summed up in their infamous Code of Ethics from a few years later, which reads like a SJW wishlist from a different era. (Spoilered for length, emphasis mine)
TSR adopted its first code as "standards for written material" in July 1982, at a time when Gary Gygax was still in control of the company. Although pithier than the later 1994 Codex of Ethics, many of the same elements were already in place, even some of the sections that you thought necessary to highlight in larger font:

tsr-code-of-ethics-1982-jon-peterson-version.jpg


And Codexers should all be grateful for TSR's condemnation of LARPers. :M


This explains why magic users are so fragile and clerics so strong. Both of this guys approves CoDzillas. hu3hui3hu3
Gary Gygax himself liked to play a magic-user named Mordenkainen when his Greyhawk campaign's co-DM Rob Kuntz was running a game. Mordenkainen even had adventure module named after him:

l5iwdm.jpg
 

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